Who was greater?

[Heidi]

Who do the catholics think was greater? John the Baptist or Mary? In Matthew 11:11, Jesus tells us that John the Baptist was. Do the Catholics think that Jesus was lying there? :o

If not, then do they claim that John the Baptist was sinless? If so, then they must not thik that Jesus was the firstborn of God since only the Holy Spirit can conceive a sinless person. So who do the catholics think was the firstborn of God? Mary, John or Jesus? :o Do the Catholics pray to John the Baptist? If not, why not?

This is again what happens when people tell a lie. They have to keep on telling one lie after another until they have a completely different bible than the one that's been passed down through the centuries. :roll:

 

[stray bullet]

Heidi, John the Baptist is considered to have been removed from the stain of original sin, so he never sinned. Although this is not a dogma, it is part of Holy Tradition.

As far as who was greater, I guess that's up to God to compare, not me. Obviously, it would make more sense for Jesus to put Himself above John, a well recognized righteous figure over His lesser known mother. A woman that many believed conceived Jesus through sin.

As far as the Holy Spirit conceiving a person without sin- that's not true. Conception is a two person process- from a man's sperm and a woman's egg. Original sin is something which is passed on from the parents. However, God can preserve someone from original sin. Even if Mary did sin, God would still have to block her from passing on original sin through her egg.

As for praying, Catholics don't 'pray' to anyone but the Trinity. We do, however, ask God to deliver prayer requests to other members of the Body of Christ in Heaven. To that extent, Catholics can and do, ask that John the Baptist pray for them, as well as Mary.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, John the Baptist is considered to have been removed from the stain of original sin, so he never sinned. Although this is not a dogma, it is part of Holy Tradition.

As far as who was greater, I guess that's up to God to compare, not me. Obviously, it would make more sense for Jesus to put Himself above John, a well recognized righteous figure over His lesser known mother. A woman that many believed conceived Jesus through sin.

As far as the Holy Spirit conceiving a person without sin- that's not true. Conception is a two person process- from a man's sperm and a woman's egg. Original sin is something which is passed on from the parents. However, God can preserve someone from original sin. Even if Mary did sin, God would still have to block her from passing on original sin through her egg.

As for praying, Catholics don't 'pray' to anyone but the Trinity. We do, however, ask God to deliver prayer requests to other members of the Body of Christ in Heaven. To that extent, Catholics can and do, ask that John the Baptist pray for them, as well as Mary.

Thye Muslims also call their teachings "Holy" tradition. So do you think the Muslims are right when they claim that Jesus is not the Son of God because it's their "holy" tradition to claim that? :o

So sorry, but people's traditions don't determine what's true or false. Only God's word does. Or don't the catholics believe or know where to find the Word of God? :o

So if John the Baptist was sinless, then how did he get that way since all humans are born in sin? Are you claiming that John the Baptist wasn't a human being but instead, the Son of God? Or are you now claiming that Jesus was not the firstborn of God?Or are you so confused you don't know what you're claiming? :roll:

So once again, one lie leads to another and another and another and another until eventually the whole word of God is contradicted which is the direction in which you are now headed. :x

 

[Guest]

Heidi, John the Baptist is considered to have been removed from the stain of original sin, so he never sinned. Although this is not a dogma, it is part of Holy Tradition.

And where does this "Holy Tradition" come from and what authority does it have?

When was the "original sin" removed from John the Baptist?

Obvisiously John, himself, did not believe that he was removed from original sin:

Matthew 3:11-12

Matthew 3:14

Mark 1:7-8

 

[stray bullet]

Thye Muslims also call their teachings "Holy" tradition. So do you think the Muslims are right when they claim that Jesus is not the Son of God because it's their "holy" tradition to claim that? :o

Muslims do not call their beliefs that. They're beliefs are based on the Quran, thus are Quranic.

So sorry, but people's traditions don't determine what's true or false. Only God's word does. Or don't the catholics believe or know where to find the Word of God? :o

Heidi, you seemed to be confused on a few things here.
Firstly, Holy Tradition isn't the traditions of men. Holy Tradition is what we call the word of God, as taught by the apostles.

The apostles didn't teach the faith from the bible (although they would reference the OT obviously), because Christianity hadn't been written about yet. Think about this- when Paul went throughout the word proclaiming the Gospel, whose Gospel was he teaching from? Matthew, Mark, Luke, John? Those hadn't been written. When he was giving instructions, whose epistles was he reading? They weren't written. What was Luke teaching from as he was writing Acts?

The scriptures of the NT came much later on. The Gospels were written after the apostles were dead. Yet- they taught the word of God, but none of it was organized into any scriptures. This collective teaching is what we call "Holy Tradition", because it was the preserved teachings of the aposltes. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were originally purely Holy Tradition, but later were manifested into scripture.

So if John the Baptist was sinless, then how did he get that way since all humans are born in sin? Are you claiming that John the Baptist wasn't a human being but instead, the Son of God? Or are you now claiming that Jesus was not the firstborn of God?Or are you so confused you don't know what you're claiming? :roll:

I believe you are confused about the concept that being preserved from sin requires you to be conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Not all humans are born into original sin, it is something that is passed down from their parents. Even if Mary sinned, God would still need to block her from passing it onto Jesus. However, we believe that God can preserve anyone from original sin He wants.

John the Baptist was not the Son of God, because he had two human parents. John the Baptist was just kept from receiving original sin from his parents, just as Mary was

.

So once again, one lie leads to another and another and another and another until eventually the whole word of God is contradicted which is the direction in which you are now headed. :x

I haven't lied once, nor have I contradicted scripture.

 

[stray bullet]

And where does this "Holy Tradition" come from and what authority does it have?

It comes from the apostles via the Holy Spirit. It is simply what we call the collective word of God as taught by the apostles, in and outside of what was later written down as scripture.

When was the "original sin" removed from John the Baptist?

in the womb.

Obvisiously John, himself, did not believe that he was removed from original sin:

Matthew 3:11-12

Matthew 3:14

Mark 1:7-8

These have nothing to do with original sin, but John's status as compared to the Son of God.

Adam before he committed the first sin was still less than Jesus.

 

[Heidi]

I haven't lied once, nor have I contradicted scripture.

So why do you call the pope your Holy Father when Jesus said not to call anyone on earth 'father"? So that's the first scripture you have contradicted.

The second is Matthew 1:25. The 3rd is Deuteronomy 4:14 and Exodus 20:4.

So you lied about not contradicting scripture. :x

And the Muslims absolutely rely on the tradition of those who wrote the Qu'ran because they haven't altered it to this day. Here's what Jesus says about tradition in Mark 7:13, "Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down."

And since the catholics contradict or make up scripture whenever they can, they absolutely nullify the word of God for the sake of their tradition. But that's what the pope counts on. He can make up any scripture he wants as long as it's traditional to make up scripture in the Catholic church. :

 

[Guest]

These have nothing to do with original sin, but John's status as compared to the Son of God.

Adam before he committed the first sin was still less than Jesus.

I would ask for Scriptural support - but somehow I get the idea that you would respond with "Apostolic Tradition".

 

[Heidi]

These have nothing to do with original sin, but John's status as compared to the Son of God.

Adam before he committed the first sin was still less than Jesus.

And Jesus gave John more status than Mary. So why claim that Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin to whom the Catholics should pray when John wasn't even described as married with children in the bible!? So he was the one that one could say was a perpetual virgin and Mary was not. So do the catholics pray to John the baptist whom Jesus said was the greatest next to himself? If not, why not?

So again, more stories to invent because of the lie that Mary was sinless and a perpetualy virgin. :roll: