Who was John the Baptiste?

[Beena]

Sometimes I feel that John the Baptiste was instrumental in making Christ and others believe that Christ was the promised Messiah and the Lamb. It's true that the old testament prophecied about the coming of a Messiah. Now, John the Baptiste knew from the old testament prophecy that the Messiah would be crucified and the Lamb would be slain or sacrificed. So, why did John the Baptiste then emphasize that Jesus was that Christ or the Messiah? He also emphasized that Christ was The Lamb. Was he Christ's friend or foe? I believe that John the Baptiste himself was on solid ground and so predicting or emphasizing that, 'the one greater than me is coming after me' he would sort of get recognition but still be on solid ground, away from any harm. Perhaps he needed a job at the time? In essence, I believe that John the Baptiste was not really Christ's friend but only wanted to promote himself and because prophecies have a habit of coming true for they can become self-fulfilling prophecies if acted upon even though they may be not true initially, so Christ paid for the wrong because of John the Baptiste's stupidity or manipulation. What do you think? Am I wrong in believing like this?

 

[bibleberean]

You are dead wrong Beena.

What John said about himself

John 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

John 1:22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


What Jesus said about John

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Matthew 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Matthew 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

John the Baptist was a humble man ordained of God.

There is a lot more to say about this man...

He was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb...

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

What Gabriel told the father of John

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

Luke 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luke 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

John the Baptist was a humble man

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

John 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

 

[Beena]

You're right! I never doubted that Christ was God ordained eventually, perhaps my post didn't come out right. I was just emphasizing that, John the Baptiste seemed like a peculiar character to me considering the fact that He showed Christ as His friend and then he should remark that Christ was the Messiah and the Lamb, knowing full well that the old testament prophecied that, the Messiah would be crucified and the Lamb slain. The John that wrote in John, Mark, Matthew and Luke is different from John the Baptiste, right?

 

[bibleberean]

You're right! I never doubted that Christ was God ordained, perhaps my post didn't come out right. I was just emphasizing that, John the Baptiste seemed like a peculiar character to me considering the fact that He showed Christ as His friend and then he should remark that Christ was the Messiah and the Lamb, knowing full well that the old testament prophecied that, the Messiah would be crucified and the Lamb slain. The John that wrote in John, Mark, Matthew and Luke is different from John the Baptiste, right?

John the Baptist didn't write anything. All the gospel accounts are written by other men so you are right...

Prophets did not always understand everything that they were speaking.

They were messengers delivering God's words.

For instance John had his disciples ask Jesus this question for him while he sat in Herod's prison.

Matthew 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

Matthew 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Matthew 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

Matthew 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Matthew 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

John was expecting Jesus to set up a Kingdom. He was puzzled why Jesus was not sitting on his the throne of David and why he was sitting in prison.

After all Jesus had told His disciples that they would rule and reign over the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus was supposed to rule forever...

He was to be King of the Jews.

It was puzzling to all...

Jesus had to tell His disciples that the Kingdom was yet coming to Israel after He was resurrected but that they couldn't know when...

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

John was correct in expecting a Kingdom but he didn't understand all the prophecies concerning Christ.

 

[Beena]

Can I ask you something? Who ordained that John the Baptiste should baptize at all?

 

[bibleberean]

Can I ask you something? Who ordained that John the Baptiste should baptize at all?

Sure... you can ask.

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John was ordained of God to baptise.

 

[Free]

You're right! I never doubted that Christ was God ordained eventually, perhaps my post didn't come out right.

It still isn't coming out right. Christ has always been God; he didn't get "ordained" or become God.

 

[bibleberean]

You're right! I never doubted that Christ was God ordained eventually, perhaps my post didn't come out right.

It still isn't coming out right. Christ has always been God; he didn't get "ordained" or become God.

That is the truth...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

God became flesh but He was still God.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[Beena]

You're right! I never doubted that Christ was God ordained eventually, perhaps my post didn't come out right.

It still isn't coming out right. Christ has always been God; he didn't get "ordained" or become God.

So, you're telling me that human beings can crucify a God? That cannot be true because if God is God he'd find a way out, not only that He'd find a way for those people not to commit a sin by crucifying Him.

 

[bibleberean]

You're right! I never doubted that Christ was God ordained eventually, perhaps my post didn't come out right.

It still isn't coming out right. Christ has always been God; he didn't get "ordained" or become God.

So, you're telling me that human beings can crucify a God? That cannot be true because if God is God he'd find a way out, not only that He'd find a way for those people not to commit a sin by crucifying Him.

Christ who is God manifest in the flesh died for our sins willingly.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

God demonstrated His love for us by dying in our place.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus gave His life no one took it from Him...

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus is God and He humbled Himself and became a man in order to pay for our sins.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[Beena]

What you're saying is that, if Christ was not crucified then he'd have committed suicide to atone for others' sins? Christ was a preacher while here and He'd have kept preaching if the Scribes, Chief Priests, Elders, some Jews, Roman government, etcetera didn't feel threatened by all the good he did. They all felt that they will start to lose power because of some miracles Christ did, and the good He said, made them even more threatened, so when He worked on a Sabbath and at other times, said that He was the Son of God, they equated that to blasphemy and tried to put an end to Him that way. But Pilate said, He has done nothing wrong when he asked Christ, are you the king of the Jews, because Christ said that His Kingdom is not from here. But then all of those against Him said to Pilate that if Christ doesn't get crucified then word might get to Caesar that Pilate considers Christ as King of the Jews, and so fearing for his own safety from Caesar, Pilate then handed Christ over to them to be crucified. Therefore, Christ became the victim of viciousness!

Also, if God wants to forgive all humanity their sins, then, He can just forgive them everything without Christ being crucified. You say Christ was God on earth? God would just put a halt on everything, bring the threat of a tornado there, and the people would run, anything. He has all the power, so why did Christ go through some crucifixion if it wasn't the fact that God does not interfere in our affairs during our life here but only after, where, He doesn't even judge but just makes it known through fate. It's our actions that determine what fate will have in store for us.

 

[bibleberean]

Beena wrote:

"What you're saying is that, if Christ was not crucified then he'd have committed suicide to atone for others' sins?"

BB responds...

I never said anything of the kind.

The only way we can know who Christ is and what He did is through scripture.

If you don't like scriptural answers then you are in the wrong place.

This is a Christian forum and all doctrines are based upon the word of God.

If you don't like that you can leave this forum as freely as you came.

Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

 

[Beena]

You implied that if Christ wasn't crucified then He'd have died otherwise as He only died on the cross to atone for others' sins and I said that cannot be true and showed you why. edited: for bad language

And Scripture cannot explain everything because YOUR scripture has been manipulated by the Roman Government and others in the past to take away all bad doing from their bad actions. Even the old testament doesn't appear at the time things were actually said, the dead sea scrolls were found so much later and don't even have any BASIS for anything to be believed in.

Edited for taking God's name in vain and flaming...

GOODBYE BABY!

 

[bibleberean]

You implied that if Christ wasn't crucified then He'd have died otherwise as He only died on the cross to atone for others' sins and I said that cannot be true and showed you why. edited: for bad language

And Scripture cannot explain everything because YOUR scripture has been manipulated by the Roman Government and others in the past to take away all bad doing from their bad actions. Even the old testament doesn't appear at the time things were actually said, the dead sea scrolls were found so much later and don't even have any BASIS for anything to be believed in.

Edited for taking God's name in vain and flaming...

GOODBYE BABY!

Adios... :D

And remember... Jesus died for your sins...

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

 

[Beena]

Adios! It's not just your forum but the internet too! :D

 

[AHIMSA]

Actually, its likely that Jesus had been a disciple of John the Baptist, that is, until Jesus began a ministry of his own.

 

[bibleberean]

Actually, its likely that Jesus had been a disciple of John the Baptist, that is, until Jesus began a ministry of his own.

What do you base this assumption on?

Do you have scripture to share?

 

[AHIMSA]

Well, there isn't any blatant biblical evidence to support this, but it does exist if one knows how to 'read in between the lines." However, I do suspect that most literalist Christians will not be able to recognize this in the Bible.

What first must be realized is that the author of each gospel had an agenda. Which isn't a bad thing. They had a perspective of Jesus to portray, and this perspective varies per gospel. If you are prepared to look at the Bible with integrity and honesty, then it must be acknowledged that Jesus being a disciple of John the Baptist was a posibillity. So anyways, I confronted this issue in a paper I wrote on my spare time several months back, so I will take exerpts from It:

When reading the Gospels it must be kept in mind that Mark was written about 40 years after the death of Jesus, possibly in 65 or 70 CE. Next came the Gospel of Matthew, it used the Gospel of Mark as an aid and it was completed at about 80 CE, then Luke which several years later, then John which came about in 100 CE or later. If you line up the Gospels in a linear fashion you see how the stories and concepts developed over time.

We know nothing of the literal birth of Jesus or of basically anything before his ministry began. The account of his birth in Bethlehem, the wise men coming to visit him, the killing of the innocent by Herod, this was all myth used to give a message and to provide an anxious Christian audience with more information about Jesus, and of course to link Jesus with the Hebrew notions of the Messiah.
It begins with the lineage establishing Jesus as the “Son of David†however Jesus clearly states he is not David’s son because he says in Mttw. 22:41 “ If David calls him Lord, how then can he be his son?â€Â
Further more the account of Jesus’ birth in Matthew and Luke conflict with each other. Luke, writing after Matthew, clearly expands on this story. In Matthew there is no Roman Census, Jesus was born in Bethlehem because that’s where Mary and Joseph had already lived, they later make a new home in Nazareth.
Keep in mind that the first Gospel account, Mark, does not even mention Jesus’ birth. Matthew does not even discuss John the Baptist until it talks about him “preparing the wayâ€Â. So John the Baptist is not established as a relative of Jesus until the Gospel of Luke, which is a new addition. Then the final Gospel of John discounts the birth of Jesus, the birth of John and the connection between Jesus and John as cousins, though not overtly so. It fails to include these connections, likely because they were not taken to be literal accounts.
This is why I believe that the birth narrative is allegorical rather than historical. The birth narrative draws on ancient, pagan symbolism as well as Hebrew writings. As well, when placed in linear order, it is obvious that each author expands on the story
The author of the birth narrative shows us that Jesus is destined to be great, his escape from Egypt links him to the Giver of the Law- Moses. Like Moses Jesus was to give a new law, like Moses who delivered the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai, Jesus gives us his commandments on the “Mount of the Beatitudes.†Where as the author of Luke prefers not to make this connection, and instead has Jesus give this sermon on flatland, calling it the "Sermon on the Plains."
Jesus is born out of the power of God’s holy Spirit, his kingship comes not from men but from the holiness of God. God places in Mary the one who he will one day call to be his Son. The author sees Jesus as king, but not a worldly king. His kingship is shown when the three wise men travel far so that they may worship him, the power of Jesus extends beyond Israel.
God is often described as “seated on a throne of gold†or as “great king’ himself. The birth narrative is trying to give a message of humility. Here is the one whom God will choose to deliver his message of love, whom he will call to be his son, and he is born not in a gold laden palace, but in a manger, in a stable…next to donkeys and doves. Jesus is called the Temple of God, but still he not a member of nobility, he does not wear rich robes, but is born to two peasants. The Gospel’s tell us Jesus reveals God’s glory, but it is not the glory of the wealthy. The Temple, laden with gold and treasures in Jerusalem, does not reflect this idea, for as humans we often like to honour God with what we desire- money, jewelry and other gaudy objects that often reflect our greed. Even after Jesus preached humility and warned us against materialism the Vatican was built, St. Peter’s Basilica, each decorated and lavished with riches.

Some two thousand years ago in Galilee a prophet came preaching, instructing the people to “repent for the kingdom of heaven is nearâ€Â. He criticized the Pharisees and the religious orders of his day that he believed to be swarming with hypocrisy, his disciples came to him, confessing their sins and being baptized in the river Jordan. This was John the Baptist and among his disciples was man from Nazareth, Jesus.
This is not clearly stated in any of the scripture, by the time Jesus had become the divine and only Son of God who knew of his divinity before the age of eight, it would not have seemed fit to portray Jesus as a follower or a disciple of another. But I certainly believe Jesus was John’s disciple. If Jesus was like any other human being on earth, he was searching for God, he was unsatisfied with spirituality in the current way to it was being taught so, in his quest, he began following John the Baptist. As one of his disciples, he was baptized in the river, where an experience transformed him. Note that being baptized by John was the key factor in recognizing yourself as a disciple. The very fact that Jesus was baptized by him places him under this title.
Any conservative Christian would be saying “Wait! You’ve got this all wrong! John knew Jesus was the Christ.†In fact in the Gospel of Matthew, John says to Jesus “It is you who should be baptizing me†clearly showing that Jesus was not a disciple of John, but his superior.
Well turn back to the Gospel of Mark written 10 to 15 years earlier. Here Jesus is just simply baptized by John, it is not to “fulfill all righteousness†as Jesus says in Matthew, but it is a simple baptism. John has no idea here that Jesus is the Christ. When this document stood on its own, it is likely that those who read it believed Jesus to be John's disciple. If John knew that Jesus was the Christ, if he had truly said that Jesus should have been baptizing him, then it doesn’t make sense that while he was in prison he would send people to ask Jesus “Are you the one that was to come? Or are we to expect someone else.?â€Â
When John is executed by Herod, Jesus retreats to a solitary place and mourns. Why is this? Is this because John was his cousin? No, because it is clear that Luke’s account of John’s birth is not historical but rather a later addition to the story. It is because Jesus saw himself, at least at first, as John’s disciple. Jesus, having embarked on a quest for meaning in his life, was inspired by John who renounced materialism and attacked the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and Sadducees. It is no mistake that their teachings are so similar, initially, Jesus drew his teachings from his leader: the Baptist.
Again the final point which makes me believe that Jesus saw himself as John’s disciple was that: Jesus begins his ministry only after John is placed in prison. It says in Matthew 3:12 “ When Jesus heard that John had been put into prison, he returned to Galilee, he went and lived in Capernaum…from that time on he began to preach.â€Â
Now that John was in prison Jesus saw himself as the Baptist’s successor. Jesus preaches in Matthew 3:17 “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is near.†This is the exact same message that John preached, Matthew 3:2, and Jesus was now carrying on his teacher’s message. Little did Jesus know that his ministry would come to surpass John’s as Jesus came to develop teachings of his own. This is why John sent apostles to Jesus to ask him if he was the Christ. John was wondering why one of his own disciples was more popular than he! He wondered if this man who had followed him was the one that was to come.

This is returning to the human perspective of Jesus. Many have said that Jesus represented humanity before God- so let him represent humanity! Jesus, like all of us, felt the need to find God and allow him to transform his life.
That’s why the baptism of Jesus is so important. Jesus decided he would be baptized by John and as he felt the waters of the Jordan washing over his soul he felt God reveal himself to him that it was as if “heaven had been opened†he felt the Spirit of God “descend upon himâ€Â. Now Jesus had become aware of God’s presence within him, and finally he felt God speak to him so clearly that it was if God’s voice was booming from heaven.
Jesus had just had a life changing experience, it shook the very structure of his soul. God was calling him his Son. With this new realization Jesus immediately withdrew into the desert to fast and deal with this revelation. There in the midst of the heat and the hunger Jesus encountered what every human being must confront: the face of Satan. Satan is not a literal figure, in fact the Bible says very little about the devil. Here Satan represents the inner turmoil of every person. We are tempted by our own selfishness, but we must resist it.

 

[Blazin Bones]

.....^ It takes a lot of work to distort scripture and come up with such a story.

1. You have no proof of any of the events of Jesus's life being mythical, while if they had been false, people of that time would have openly denied and chrushed the new religion.

2. John even siad he was not worthy of baptising Jesus. If He had been guiding Jesus, he would not have said that.

3. If John was the Teacher, he would have rebuked Jesus for making the claims that he was the Messiah. Instead, he sent his followers so that he may again confirm that He was defending the one who he had been born to prepare a way for.

You have neither Scriptural nor historical proof to back up these claims. While the gospel truth can be weighed and measured.

 

[AHIMSA]

Interesting, you see my position is actually pretty much in line with modern Biblical scholarship, which of course, literalist Christianity resents because it feels its firm and exclusive padlock on the truth being slowly wrenched away.

There are, of course, some facts that you can not deny. That is, the order in which the Gospels were written and their approximate, respective dates: Mark in 65-70, Matthew in 80, Luke in 85-90, and John anywhere between 90-120 CE

The document that you may hold in your hand right now, the Bible, was not compiled into an actual book until centuries later. Before that the gospels were individual works that rotated around different Christian
communities.

The earliest documents that we have in the New Testament are the, and I do believe it is fourteen, letters or epistles of Saint Paul. Which NO ONE believed to be infallible, but rather, they had the authority of your local pastor.

Now Matthew writes after Mark, he clearly had a copy of that Gospel because it is absorbed into his text virtually word for word, with some minor alterations of his own.

So open to the gospel of Mark, and pretend that ALL the other gospels do not exist, as though you were a follower of Christ (as it was not yet called Christianity) in the years between 65-80. From that alone we can draw that:

- Jesus was baptized by John, as was mandatory for any of his followers
- John has no idea Jesus is to be the Christ
- Jesus has a spiritual experience while being baptized
- After John is placed in prison, Jesus preaches the same message as John
- John later sends people to ask Jesus if he is "the one who is to come"

NOTE: The Gospel of Mark is aware of no birth narrative (neither is Paul)

Interesting how the EARLIEST documents in Christianity, and especially Paul's, the only pre-revolution documents, have absolutely NO IDEA of the virgin birth. How can this be?


But lets confront some other issues: Matthew adds a birth narrative fifteen years later. He seeks to make Jesus look like Moses:
- 1.Matthew contains the MOST Hebrew scripture references
- 2.Mathew has Jesus escape death as an infant at the hands of a King who 'slaughters the innocent"....just as Moses escaped from pharoah
- 3.Matthew has Jesus placed in Egypt (The land of Moses)
- 4.Matthew has Jesus deliver his sermon on a Mountain, just as Moses gave the law on Sinai, so Jesus gives the New Law, on the Mount of the Beatitudes
* Note that there is no historical record of a slaughter of the Bethlehem children. Secondly, if it Roman Occupied Territory, why would the Romans allow such a slaughter
*Note that Matthew does not include any idea of a census, but that Jesus begins in Bethlehem
*Note that if Matthew just happened to "not record" a census, it doesn't make sense why the Romans would allow an entire town's children to be murder in the very middle of a Empire Wide Census.

Now Luke,years later, who does NOT seek to portray Jesus as the new Moses:
- 1.does NOT include the slaughter of the innocent
- 2. does NOT include the trip to Egypt
- 3. Does NOT include the Sermon on the Mount, but rather, calls it the "Sermon the Plains."

Plus, he ADDS the story of Elizabeth and Zechariah
he ADDS the Roman Census
he ADDS the child Jesus at the Temple
he ADDS to the baptism story
he ADDS the ascension
he PLACES Jesus from Nazareth to Bethlehem and back, while in Matthew, Jesus began in Bethlehem, then moved to Nazareth

Keeping mind the dates when these were written, place them in a linear fashion an not only do they contradict one another, but they give different images of Jesus.

I'm not 'twisting scripture'...I'm breaking it down in the order that it was written and the ways in which it was written.

You have no proof of any of the events of Jesus's life being mythical

Hello? Virgin birth? Angels in the sky? Wise men from across the earth? A guiding star?

These are some of the most archetypical mythological symbols of the ancient world. Most specifically the idea of a virgin birth, which existed with such pre-Christian cults as mithranism and religions such as Zoroastrianism.