Who were the witnesses at Paul's Conversion?

[Rajesh Sahu]

Greetings and blessings to all my brothers and sisters here /\ . May the Lord's blessings and wisdom be upon us all /\

Being a humble follower ( not just believer-- yes I like to OBEY and not just believe which means nothing really without obedience ] John 3:16, John 3:36 (NASB) ] to our Lord Jesus Christ, it bothers me exceedingly when I read the verse 2 Timothy 3:16 where Paul says " All Scripture is God-breathed " . By saying so Paul places ALL his words (utterings/teachings) at Par and equal to all words spoken by the Mighty Yahweh ( Jehovah if you will) -- the mighty God of heaven and earth, AND Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the architect of human salvation. In simple words, paul's words through 2 Timothy 3;16 carry the same weight as those of the Almighty God and the Son and Savior , our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus says ( notice He says Truly truly) something substantially different in John 13:16

John 13:16 ► Truly, truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

All these inconsistencies made me research this mystery apostle, Paul, a bit.
In my research I found nowhere else in the Bible is such a thing said except when paul said what he said in 2 Timothy 3:16 ( one of the favorites of modern-day Churches)
Brothers and sisters one of the things that bothers me much is the account of Paul conversion recorded in Acts 9:1-16.
The Book of Acts says that The incident happens when Paul was on his way from Jerusalem to Syrian Damascus with a mandate issued by the High Priest to seek out and arrest followers of Jesus, with the intention of returning them to Jerusalem as prisoners for questioning and possible execution.[4] The journey is interrupted when Paul sees a blinding light, and communicates directly with a divine voice. So the incident happened when paul was on way to Damascus with a lynch mob, likes of whom, who murdered Stephen and persecuted arrested and murdered many early Christians. ( please correct me id I am wrong )

So when the conversion took place – when Christ appeared to Paul's per his claims, WHO were the CREDIBLE witnesses to the conversion? Can their testimony of murdering persecutors be accepted? If not, WHY was it accepted in the first place?

9:10 - Now in Damascus there was a disciple by the name of Ananias. The Lord spoke to this man in a dream. calling him by his name. "I am here, Lord," he replied.

9:11-12 - Then the Lord said to him, "Get up and go down to the street called Straight, and enquire at the HOUSE OF JUDAS for a man named Saul from Tarsus. At this moment he is praying ( AT THE HOUSE OF JUDAS) and he sees in his mind's eye a man by the name of Ananias coming into the house, and placing his hands upon him to restore his sight."

9:13-14 - But Ananias replied, "Lord, I have heard on all hands about this man and how much harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem! Why even now he holds powers from the chief priests to arrest all who call upon your name."

9:15-16 - But the Lord said to him, "Go on your way, for this man is my chosen instrument to bear my name before the Gentiles and their kings, as well as to the sons of Israel. Indeed, I myself will show him what he must suffer for the sake of my name."

9:17 - Then Ananias set out and went to the house(of Judas, where Saul the Pharisee sat praying), and there he laid his hands upon Saul, and said, "Saul, brother, the Lord has sent me - Jesus who appeared to you on your journey here - so that you may recover your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

9:18-19 - Immediately something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got to his feet and was baptized. Then he took some food and regained his strength.

According to Acts 9:10, Ananias was living in Damascus. In Paul's speech in Acts 22, Paul describes Ananias as "a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews" that dwelt in Damascus (Acts 22:12). This indicates that he was not one of the refugees from the persecution in Jerusalem described in Acts 8:1. Ananias was a mysterious figure in Bible, where apart from helping Saul become “apostle” Paul he is not mentioned anywhere else (in the Bible).

Friends I ask in humility respect and love to edify me, teach me if you will, if I'm not getting it right , but please desist from hurling judgments at me. If you have doubts about me or my Christain faith,, please check my hundreds of previous posts. If ANYONE suggests or states that I'm NOT a humble servant of Lord Jesus Christ, I will bid adieu in love and respect, and blessings. However if not, then I please request edification without judgment. I have learned MORE from this website than I have from any Church ever since I became a Christian in May 2006. So I beg you in advance to rely on scriptural evidence rather than judgment.

And honestly friends THIS is one of the reasons I was away from this website – Because I ask questions when I do NOT understand. And I got more answers and edification here than any other place and therefore I fondly call our website “ MY TRUE CHURCH” because there are some astounding teachers of the Word here ( both members and moderators) – won’t take names, lest I take away from those I may not have read from. And I am grateful you Lord for guiding my steps here few years back /\

To repeat my question, WHO WERE THE CREDIBLE WITNESSES on whose testimony Paul’s conversion story was accepted by the Church. Let me use Paul’s own words for this (2 Corinthians 13:1) "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses since you are DEMANDING PROOF THAT CHRIST IS SPEAKING THROUGH ME. He is not weak in dealing with you but is powerful among you. For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power.”

So if we accept Paul as true apostle of Christ ( unlike some of the Corinthians who were demanding proof) WHO WERE THE TWO OR THREE WITNESSES ON WHOSE TESTIMONY WAS THE CONVERSION MATTER OF PAUL ESTABLISHED?

And if there were no credible witnesses why was his story even accepted?
Look forward to learning from you, friends. In humble and deeply respectful submission /\

A brother in Christ…. Raj /\


Greetings and blessings to all my brothers and sisters here /\ . May the Lord's blessings and wisdom be upon us all /\
Being a humble follower ( not just believer) of our Lord Jesus Christ, it bothers me exceedingly when I read the verse 2 Timothy 3:16 where Paul says " All Scripture is God-breathed " . By saying so Paul places ALL his words (utterings/teachings) at Par and equal to all words spoken by the Mighty Yahweh ( Jehovah if you will) -- the mighty God of heaven and earth, AND Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the architect of human salvation. In simple words, paul's words through 2 Timothy 3;16 have the same weight as those of the Almighty God and the Son and Savior , our Lord Jesus Christ
This made me research this mystery apostle, Paul, a bit.
In my research I found Nowhere else in the Bible is such a thing said except when paul said what he said in 2 Timothy 3:16 ( one of the favorites of modern-day Churches)
Brothers and sisters one of the things that nbothers me much is the account of Paul conversion recoreded in

 

[Who Me]

WHO were the CREDIBLE witnesses to the conversion? Can their testimony of murdering persecutors be accepted? If not, WHY was it accepted in the first place?

As scripture tells us, Saul's companions saw the light and heard a voice but did not understand what was said. We do not know what happened to them after they had led Aulnto Damascus.
All we know is Saul/Paul's testamony.

Should we accept it? What evidence do you have or reasons why we shouldn't?

What did Paul gain by joining a despised minority cult, certainly not wealth or prestige, as he says he was beaten three times, stoned, ship wrecked etc etc and ended up being exceuted.

 

[Link1983]

Greetings and blessings to all my brothers and sisters here /\ . May the Lord's blessings and wisdom be upon us all /\

Being a humble follower ( not just believer-- yes I like to OBEY and not just believe which means nothing really without obedience ] John 3:16, John 3:36 (NASB) ] to our Lord Jesus Christ, it bothers me exceedingly when I read the verse 2 Timothy 3:16 where Paul says " All Scripture is God-breathed " . By saying so Paul places ALL his words (utterings/teachings) at Par and equal to all words spoken by the Mighty Yahweh ( Jehovah if you will) -- the mighty God of heaven and earth, AND Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the architect of human salvation. In simple words, paul's words through 2 Timothy 3;16 carry the same weight as those of the Almighty God and the Son and Savior , our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus says ( notice He says Truly truly) something substantially different in John 13:16

John 13:16 ► Truly, truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

All these inconsistencies made me research this mystery apostle, Paul, a bit.
In my research I found nowhere else in the Bible is such a thing said except when paul said what he said in 2 Timothy 3:16 ( one of the favorites of modern-day Churches)
Brothers and sisters one of the things that bothers me much is the account of Paul conversion recorded in Acts 9:1-16.
The Book of Acts says that The incident happens when Paul was on his way from Jerusalem to Syrian Damascus with a mandate issued by the High Priest to seek out and arrest followers of Jesus, with the intention of returning them to Jerusalem as prisoners for questioning and possible execution.[4] The journey is interrupted when Paul sees a blinding light, and communicates directly with a divine voice. So the incident happened when paul was on way to Damascus with a lynch mob, likes of whom, who murdered Stephen and persecuted arrested and murdered many early Christians. ( please correct me id I am wrong )

So when the conversion took place – when Christ appeared to Paul's per his claims, WHO were the CREDIBLE witnesses to the conversion? Can their testimony of murdering persecutors be accepted? If not, WHY was it accepted in the first place?

9:10 - Now in Damascus there was a disciple by the name of Ananias. The Lord spoke to this man in a dream. calling him by his name. "I am here, Lord," he replied.

9:11-12 - Then the Lord said to him, "Get up and go down to the street called Straight, and enquire at the HOUSE OF JUDAS for a man named Saul from Tarsus. At this moment he is praying ( AT THE HOUSE OF JUDAS) and he sees in his mind's eye a man by the name of Ananias coming into the house, and placing his hands upon him to restore his sight."

9:13-14 - But Ananias replied, "Lord, I have heard on all hands about this man and how much harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem! Why even now he holds powers from the chief priests to arrest all who call upon your name."

9:15-16 - But the Lord said to him, "Go on your way, for this man is my chosen instrument to bear my name before the Gentiles and their kings, as well as to the sons of Israel. Indeed, I myself will show him what he must suffer for the sake of my name."

9:17 - Then Ananias set out and went to the house(of Judas, where Saul the Pharisee sat praying), and there he laid his hands upon Saul, and said, "Saul, brother, the Lord has sent me - Jesus who appeared to you on your journey here - so that you may recover your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

9:18-19 - Immediately something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got to his feet and was baptized. Then he took some food and regained his strength.

According to Acts 9:10, Ananias was living in Damascus. In Paul's speech in Acts 22, Paul describes Ananias as "a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews" that dwelt in Damascus (Acts 22:12). This indicates that he was not one of the refugees from the persecution in Jerusalem described in Acts 8:1. Ananias was a mysterious figure in Bible, where apart from helping Saul become “apostle” Paul he is not mentioned anywhere else (in the Bible).

Friends I ask in humility respect and love to edify me, teach me if you will, if I'm not getting it right , but please desist from hurling judgments at me. If you have doubts about me or my Christain faith,, please check my hundreds of previous posts. If ANYONE suggests or states that I'm NOT a humble servant of Lord Jesus Christ, I will bid adieu in love and respect, and blessings. However if not, then I please request edification without judgment. I have learned MORE from this website than I have from any Church ever since I became a Christian in May 2006. So I beg you in advance to rely on scriptural evidence rather than judgment.

And honestly friends THIS is one of the reasons I was away from this website – Because I ask questions when I do NOT understand. And I got more answers and edification here than any other place and therefore I fondly call our website “ MY TRUE CHURCH” because there are some astounding teachers of the Word here ( both members and moderators) – won’t take names, lest I take away from those I may not have read from. And I am grateful you Lord for guiding my steps here few years back /\

To repeat my question, WHO WERE THE CREDIBLE WITNESSES on whose testimony Paul’s conversion story was accepted by the Church. Let me use Paul’s own words for this (2 Corinthians 13:1) "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses since you are DEMANDING PROOF THAT CHRIST IS SPEAKING THROUGH ME. He is not weak in dealing with you but is powerful among you. For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power.”

So if we accept Paul as true apostle of Christ ( unlike some of the Corinthians who were demanding proof) WHO WERE THE TWO OR THREE WITNESSES ON WHOSE TESTIMONY WAS THE CONVERSION MATTER OF PAUL ESTABLISHED?

And if there were no credible witnesses why was his story even accepted?
Look forward to learning from you, friends. In humble and deeply respectful submission /\

A brother in Christ…. Raj /\


Greetings and blessings to all my brothers and sisters here /\ . May the Lord's blessings and wisdom be upon us all /\
Being a humble follower ( not just believer) of our Lord Jesus Christ, it bothers me exceedingly when I read the verse 2 Timothy 3:16 where Paul says " All Scripture is God-breathed " . By saying so Paul places ALL his words (utterings/teachings) at Par and equal to all words spoken by the Mighty Yahweh ( Jehovah if you will) -- the mighty God of heaven and earth, AND Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the architect of human salvation. In simple words, paul's words through 2 Timothy 3;16 have the same weight as those of the Almighty God and the Son and Savior , our Lord Jesus Christ
This made me research this mystery apostle, Paul, a bit.
In my research I found Nowhere else in the Bible is such a thing said except when paul said what he said in 2 Timothy 3:16 ( one of the favorites of modern-day Churches)
Brothers and sisters one of the things that nbothers me much is the account of Paul conversion recoreded in

Well spoken about beeing humble and not only believe.. James 2:19 "You surely believe there is only one God. That’s fine. Even demons believe this, and it makes them shake with fear"

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

As scripture tells us, Saul's companions saw the light and heard a voice but did not understand what was said. We do not know what happened to them after they had led Aulnto Damascus.
All we know is Saul/Paul's testamony.

Should we accept it? What evidence do you have or reasons why we shouldn't?

What did Paul gain by joining a despised minority cult, certainly not wealth or prestige, as he says he was beaten three times, stoned, ship wrecked etc etc and ended up being exceuted.

Jihadis/ Terrorists also go through considerable hardships and mostly get killed/ executed for their (heinous) acts. Many are not even paid. Yet they do it out of their religious motivations. they believe the " god" they serve will reward them

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Well spoken about beeing humble and not only believe.. James 2:19 "You surely believe there is only one God. That’s fine. Even demons believe this, and it makes them shake with fear"

thank you for sharing that verse /\. Yes James, the brother of our Lord, comes down heavily on faith alone ( without evidence of good works/ obedience). In the following verse, (James 2:20) he proceeds to rebuke with the rather strong words "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

 

[WIP]

Being a humble follower ( not just believer-- yes I like to OBEY and not just believe which means nothing really without obedience ] John 3:16, John 3:36 (NASB) ] to our Lord Jesus Christ, it bothers me exceedingly when I read the verse 2 Timothy 3:16 where Paul says " All Scripture is God-breathed " . By saying so Paul places ALL his words (utterings/teachings) at Par and equal to all words spoken by the Mighty Yahweh ( Jehovah if you will) -- the mighty God of heaven and earth, AND Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the architect of human salvation. In simple words, paul's words through 2 Timothy 3;16 carry the same weight as those of the Almighty God and the Son and Savior , our Lord Jesus Christ.

Don't forget that when Paul wrote this, his writings were not considered part of Scripture. I'm sure he did not know that at some future date, his words would be canonized along with what he knew to be Scripture at the time of his writings. So, to answer your question, no, he did not consider his words to be at par with those of Yahweh.

 

[WIP]

Rajesh Sahu, this discussion thread was originally posted in the Questions From Seekers forum. That forum is reserved for nonbelievers to ask questions and CFnet Christians to answer. I have moved it here for further study.

 

[EJStevens65]

Paul/Saul witnessed which the exception of three are not directly named. One Ananias you have already mention; another Barnabas; mentioned in the latter half of Acts 9 especially Acts 9:26-28. Finally the Apostle Peter shouts loudest to Paul authority in II Peters 3:15-16.

 

[EJStevens65]

While Barnabas and Peter did not directly witness Paul’s conversion they saw the Fruit of his conversion.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

While Barnabas and Peter did not directly witness Paul’s conversion they saw the Fruit of his conversion.

the verse says witnessed. Thank you for your contribution. Appreciate it /\. But it yet does not answer my question. Who were the two or three witnesses needed for a fact to be established? Unfortunately even Ananias was NOT one of them-- who witnessed the conversion, not to speak of Barnabas and Peter.
The account says "lord" spoke to him in a dream that he was to meet Saul the Pharisee who was praying one one " house of Judas"

 

[JLB]

But it yet does not answer my question. Who were the two or three witnesses needed for a fact to be established?

Blessings to you brother, glad to have you back in the community.


Here is what the scripture says...

But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ Matthew 18:16


This statement from the Lord establishes a principle that was first recorded by Moses, for the purpose of establishing integrity in the administration of God’s law, that there would be justice and equity in the community of Israel, especially when a person was deserving of death, or in the case of Matthew 18:16, being removed from the Church community because a brother did not want to repent, after being confronted by two or more witnesses.

• The problem with your particular question is, it requires two or more living people to validate Paul’s conversion.

The people who witnessed Paul’s conversion are no longer with us.

We do however have the The Lord; the eternal Godhead, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as witnesses of Paul, demonstrating that he represents them, by the power of the signs and wonders, just as Jesus said...


If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”
John 10:37-38


We also have the testimony of Peter —

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:14-16

By saying “the rest of the scriptures”, the Holy Spirit through Peter is indicating Paul’s epistles were equal as scripture.


again


Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord? And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time.”
And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand. Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord. Acts 13:6-12


Paul spoke by the Spirit, those words to the sorcerer, and the word of the Lord came to pass, causing him to become blind, demonstrating that the Lord was with Paul, teaching a powerful lesson through him, validating Paul’s authority as a representative of Christ.



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Greetings and blessings to all my brothers and sisters here /\ . May the Lord's blessings and wisdom be upon us all /\

Being a humble follower ( not just believer-- yes I like to OBEY and not just believe which means nothing really without obedience ] John 3:16, John 3:36 (NASB) ] to our Lord Jesus Christ, it bothers me exceedingly when I read the verse 2 Timothy 3:16 where Paul says " All Scripture is God-breathed " . By saying so Paul places ALL his words (utterings/teachings) at Par and equal to all words spoken by the Mighty Yahweh ( Jehovah if you will) -- the mighty God of heaven and earth, AND Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the architect of human salvation. In simple words, paul's words through 2 Timothy 3;16 carry the same weight as those of the Almighty God and the Son and Savior , our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus says ( notice He says Truly truly) something substantially different in John 13:16

​

John 13:16 ► Truly, truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

​

All these inconsistencies made me research this mystery apostle, Paul, a bit.
In my research I found nowhere else in the Bible is such a thing said except when paul said what he said in 2 Timothy 3:16 ( one of the favorites of modern-day Churches)
Brothers and sisters one of the things that bothers me much is the account of Paul conversion recorded in Acts 9:1-16.
The Book of Acts says that The incident happens when Paul was on his way from Jerusalem to Syrian Damascus with a mandate issued by the High Priest to seek out and arrest followers of Jesus, with the intention of returning them to Jerusalem as prisoners for questioning and possible execution.[4] The journey is interrupted when Paul sees a blinding light, and communicates directly with a divine voice. So the incident happened when paul was on way to Damascus with a lynch mob, likes of whom, who murdered Stephen and persecuted arrested and murdered many early Christians. ( please correct me id I am wrong )

So when the conversion took place – when Christ appeared to Paul's per his claims, WHO were the CREDIBLE witnesses to the conversion? Can their testimony of murdering persecutors be accepted? If not, WHY was it accepted in the first place?

9:10 - Now in Damascus there was a disciple by the name of Ananias. The Lord spoke to this man in a dream. calling him by his name. "I am here, Lord," he replied.

9:11-12 - Then the Lord said to him, "Get up and go down to the street called Straight, and enquire at the HOUSE OF JUDAS for a man named Saul from Tarsus. At this moment he is praying ( AT THE HOUSE OF JUDAS) and he sees in his mind's eye a man by the name of Ananias coming into the house, and placing his hands upon him to restore his sight."

9:13-14 - But Ananias replied, "Lord, I have heard on all hands about this man and how much harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem! Why even now he holds powers from the chief priests to arrest all who call upon your name."

9:15-16 - But the Lord said to him, "Go on your way, for this man is my chosen instrument to bear my name before the Gentiles and their kings, as well as to the sons of Israel. Indeed, I myself will show him what he must suffer for the sake of my name."

9:17 - Then Ananias set out and went to the house(of Judas, where Saul the Pharisee sat praying), and there he laid his hands upon Saul, and said, "Saul, brother, the Lord has sent me - Jesus who appeared to you on your journey here - so that you may recover your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

9:18-19 - Immediately something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got to his feet and was baptized. Then he took some food and regained his strength.

According to Acts 9:10, Ananias was living in Damascus. In Paul's speech in Acts 22, Paul describes Ananias as "a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews" that dwelt in Damascus (Acts 22:12). This indicates that he was not one of the refugees from the persecution in Jerusalem described in Acts 8:1. Ananias was a mysterious figure in Bible, where apart from helping Saul become “apostle” Paul he is not mentioned anywhere else (in the Bible).

Friends I ask in humility respect and love to edify me, teach me if you will, if I'm not getting it right , but please desist from hurling judgments at me. If you have doubts about me or my Christain faith,, please check my hundreds of previous posts. If ANYONE suggests or states that I'm NOT a humble servant of Lord Jesus Christ, I will bid adieu in love and respect, and blessings. However if not, then I please request edification without judgment. I have learned MORE from this website than I have from any Church ever since I became a Christian in May 2006. So I beg you in advance to rely on scriptural evidence rather than judgment.

Gal 1:12 Paul's writings were equally inspired as the other writers of the Bible, but Divine inspiration did not make Bible writers Deity like God. On another occasion Jesus told His Apostles "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me" Matt 10:40. But the Apostles were not on the same level as God, again they were not Deity.

Paul was not converted on the road to Damascus, he was still lost in his sins. Not until he was baptized and had his sins washed away Acts 22:16 was Paul saved. I am not familiar with a verse that teaches there must be multiple witnesses at a baptism. No multiple witnesses in Acts 8 with the eunuch.

"This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

2 Cor 13:1 is not about conversions. There were false teachers at Corinth that were leading the Christians astray and these false teachers were attacking Paul by questioning his Apostleship and what he taught.

"Every word be established" (Coffman Commentary)
Incredibly, some scholars have so far missed the meaning of this that they actually suppose that by this Paul meant, "Any charge still being made against Paul when he arrives will need substantiation by witnesses." (3)
It is impossible to imagine, however, that Paul was going to Corinth to clear himself. On the contrary, he would go to discipline and correct THEM and to cast out of God's church all incorrigible offenders. Clines was therefore correct in referring this to charges "of Corinthian against Corinthians," (4) and not to Paul. A full reading of the Old Testament passage appealed to by Paul in this verse makes it absolutely clear what he intended to do:

This is almost verbatim the rendition from the Septuagint (LXX), meaning: "I will judge, not without examination, nor will I abstain from punishing upon due evidence; I shall now assuredly fulfill my threats." (5)

(3) Norman Hillyer, The New Bible Commentary, Revised (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1970), p. 1087.
(4) David J. A. Clines, A New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1969), p. 441.
(5) W. J. Conybeare, Life and Epistles of St. Paul (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1966), p. 463.

It was not Paul's words that needed to be cleared/established, but the words of those Corinthians challenging Paul. Paul would bring his own witnesses against those Corinthians. There are questions as to who these witnesses would be. Some say Paul's inspired epistles to the Corinthians would be the witnesses against them. Others think Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus would be Paul's witnesses against those Corinthians (1 Cor 16:17). Whoever the witnesses, Paul was coming to convict and condemn THEM and have 2-3 witnesses to this condemnation as it was done under the OT law.

Again, I see nothing in this that there must be multiple witnesses to a baptism/conversion. Paul is dealing with his conviction, condemnation of false teachers with witnesses present.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Gal 1:12 Paul's writings were equally inspired as the other writers of the Bible, but Divine inspiration did not make Bible writers Deity like God. On another occasion Jesus told His Apostles "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me" Matt 10:40. But the Apostles were not on the same level as God, again they were not Deity.

Paul was not converted on the road to Damascus, he was still lost in his sins. Not until he was baptized and had his sins washed away Acts 22:16 was Paul saved. I am not familiar with a verse that teaches there must be multiple witnesses at a baptism. No multiple witnesses in Acts 8 with the eunuch.

"This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

2 Cor 13:1 is not about conversions. There were false teachers at Corinth that were leading the Christians astray and these false teachers were attacking Paul by questioning his Apostleship and what he taught.

"Every word be established" (Coffman Commentary)
Incredibly, some scholars have so far missed the meaning of this that they actually suppose that by this Paul meant, "Any charge still being made against Paul when he arrives will need substantiation by witnesses." (3)
It is impossible to imagine, however, that Paul was going to Corinth to clear himself. On the contrary, he would go to discipline and correct THEM and to cast out of God's church all incorrigible offenders. Clines was therefore correct in referring this to charges "of Corinthian against Corinthians," (4) and not to Paul. A full reading of the Old Testament passage appealed to by Paul in this verse makes it absolutely clear what he intended to do:

This is almost verbatim the rendition from the Septuagint (LXX), meaning: "I will judge, not without examination, nor will I abstain from punishing upon due evidence; I shall now assuredly fulfill my threats." (5)

(3) Norman Hillyer, The New Bible Commentary, Revised (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1970), p. 1087.
(4) David J. A. Clines, A New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1969), p. 441.
(5) W. J. Conybeare, Life and Epistles of St. Paul (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1966), p. 463.

It was not Paul's words that needed to be cleared/established, but the words of those Corinthians challenging Paul. Paul would bring his own witnesses against those Corinthians. There are questions as to who these witnesses would be. Some say Paul's inspired epistles to the Corinthians would be the witnesses against them. Others think Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus would be Paul's witnesses against those Corinthians (1 Cor 16:17). Whoever the witnesses, Paul was coming to convict and condemn THEM and have 2-3 witnesses to this condemnation as it was done under the OT law.

Again, I see nothing in this that there must be multiple witnesses to a baptism/conversion. Paul is dealing with his conviction, condemnation of false teachers with witnesses present.

Thank you for your detailed reply. Much appreciated ?. But it was not just the Corinthians but in 2Timothy 1: 15 Paul says " All in Asia have turned away from me"
This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
Which begs the question what made them all turn away from Paul

 

[JLB]

Which begs the question what made them all turn away from Paul

The next verse tells us.

This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
2 Timothy 1:15-16


Paul had been arrested for the Gospel’s sake.

Thrown in prison.


JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The next verse tells us.

This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
2 Timothy 1:15-16


Paul had been arrested for the Gospel’s sake.

Thrown in prison.


JLB

Many were afraid of Rome and persecution from Nero and deserted Paul when he was imprisoned at Rome.

 

[JLB]

Many were afraid of Rome and persecution from Nero and deserted Paul when he was imprisoned at Rome.

Yes sir.

This is a commonly known fact.

It has its foundation in the saying....

Strike the shepherd and the sheep will scatter.


Like Jesus and his disciples who deserted him when He was arrested, Paul’s disciples deserted him for a season.


All because of their obedience to God.




JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Blessings to you brother, glad to have you back in the community.


Here is what the scripture says...

But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ Matthew 18:16


This statement from the Lord establishes a principle that was first recorded by Moses, for the purpose of establishing integrity in the administration of God’s law, that there would be justice and equity in the community of Israel, especially when a person was deserving of death, or in the case of Matthew 18:16, being removed from the Church community because a brother did not want to repent, after being confronted by two or more witnesses.

• The problem with your particular question is, it requires two or more living people to validate Paul’s conversion.

The people who witnessed Paul’s conversion are no longer with us.

We do however have the The Lord; the eternal Godhead, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as witnesses of Paul, demonstrating that he represents them, by the power of the signs and wonders, just as Jesus said...


If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”
John 10:37-38


We also have the testimony of Peter —

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:14-16

By saying “the rest of the scriptures”, the Holy Spirit through Peter is indicating Paul’s epistles were equal as scripture.


again


Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord? And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time.”
And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand. Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord. Acts 13:6-12


Paul spoke by the Spirit, those words to the sorcerer, and the word of the Lord came to pass, causing him to become blind, demonstrating that the Lord was with Paul, teaching a powerful lesson through him, validating Paul’s authority as a representative of Christ.



JLB

Brother JLB thank you for your words of edification and encouragement. I have learned so much from you, wondering and some others here /\
I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in paul and his apostleship or even his doctrine.
If the Solafide doctrine is taught in an overwhelming number of Christian Churches, it is due to the 13th apostle, Apostle Paul--even though you have repeatedly pointed out, Sister wondering as well, that whenever paul says believe, we have to consider he meant obey as well, in that word Believe, else it does not make sense.
Also if there is a confusion in the minds of Pastors and teachers and Shephards of Christian Churches that the "Law is Dead ( to the Christian), and we are now under Grace" it's also because of Pauline doctrine, which insists we are not under law but under Grace. Fiannly Pualine doctrien ( in my opinion only) obstacles the pristine and beautiful and perfect teachings of the Messiah, the savior of mankind's Red lettered words. Once Paul is put in the back seat and Christ's red-lettered words in the forefront, only then will we see a dramatically different picture of salvation emerge. And apart from faith in Lord Jesus Christ, there will be an equally vitally important facet of OBEDIENCE which was minimized by paul. Not by God or His prophets and most certainly not by the Son (Matthew 10:38, Matthew 7:21, John 14:15) or James ( 2:19-20) or John ( 10:48) or the Baptist (John 3:36)
I also see a series of "inconsistencies" In Christ's words, if Paul was indeed a genuine apostle of Christ.
Let's examine some of them
Summarizing the mystery of Pauline apostleship:

• Jesus curses the Pharisees and Sadducees with seven woes, Matthew 23:13-39 in a way he had never done to anyone else.
• He then WARNS His disciples with the caveat “BEWARE OF THE YEAST (DOCTRINE) OF THE PHARISEES! (Matthew 16:6)
• Jesus then proceeds to appoint Saul, the vicious Church persecuting Pharisee, as His apostle, as per Paul’s story (Acts 9:1-19)
• The apostles are NOT informed by Christ that He wants to appoint a thirteenth apostle. Neither does Christ thwart the eleven handpicked apostles in choosing a twelfth apostle, Matthias, to replace the betraying apostle Judas Acts 1:12-26
• 
  
• Paul partook in the destruction of the innocent and virtuous man Stephen’s temple of Holy Spirit. In 1 Corinthians 3:17, Paul warns, "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple." So by his own mouth Paul subjects / exposes himself to destruction by God
• 
  
• Paul had committed unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and yet Jesus goes against His own words and not only forgives Paul but appoints him as his 13th Apostle. Let’s us read what Jesus warns us about the unpardonable sin by Jesus’ own teaching in Matthew 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
• This is what Paul says by his own mouth in 1Timothy 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
• (Acts 26:11).
• “ And I punished them—the new believers -- often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.”
• So Paul not only blasphemed himself buy compelled several others to do the same--- perform the unpardonable sin
  
  
• Paul provides three different, and inconsistent accounts about his conversion experience
• Pharisee Saul aka Paul leaves for ARABIA instead of Jerusalem for 3 long years after conversion, without meeting or sharing his experience with any of Christ’s apostles. This is what Paul says in Galatians 1: 17-20
• “Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie”
• Christ commends the Church of Ephesus for exposing false apostles (Revelations 2:2) which had previously rejected apostle Paul, at least on one occasion
• Christ goes on to reject/ exclude one of the now thirteen apostles in Revelation 21: 14 where only twelve apostles’ names are mentioned. Only one of the two --- Matthias(hand-picked by the apostles of Christ) or Paul ----will find a place/name in the new Jerusalem
• Finally against the warning of Christ in Matthew 23:9 ► “Do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven” Paul goes on to say in 1 Corinthians 4:15 ► Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

my Apologies for the typos in my immediately preceding post. Getting older now But the post hopefully yet conveys the message I wanted to /\

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If the Solafide doctrine is taught in an overwhelming number of Christian Churches, it is due to the 13th apostle, Apostle Paul--

Paul did not teach faith only, he did teach "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16.

Paul and James are in agreement that obedient works are necessary to being saved:

James 2:24-------------------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Paul (Rom 6:17-18)------obey from the heart>>>>>>>>justified-freed from sin

 

[stovebolts]

Brother JLB thank you for your words of edification and encouragement. I have learned so much from you, wondering and some others here /\
I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in paul and his apostleship or even his doctrine.
If the Solafide doctrine is taught in an overwhelming number of Christian Churches, it is due to the 13th apostle, Apostle Paul--even though you have repeatedly pointed out, Sister wondering as well, that whenever paul says believe, we have to consider he meant obey as well, in that word Believe, else it does not make sense.
Also if there is a confusion in the minds of Pastors and teachers and Shephards of Christian Churches that the "Law is Dead ( to the Christian), and we are now under Grace" it's also because of Pauline doctrine, which insists we are not under law but under Grace. Fiannly Pualine doctrien ( in my opinion only) obstacles the pristine and beautiful and perfect teachings of the Messiah, the savior of mankind's Red lettered words. Once Paul is put in the back seat and Christ's red-lettered words in the forefront, only then will we see a dramatically different picture of salvation emerge. And apart from faith in Lord Jesus Christ, there will be an equally vitally important facet of OBEDIENCE which was minimized by paul. Not by God or His prophets and most certainly not by the Son (Matthew 10:38, Matthew 7:21, John 14:15) or James ( 2:19-20) or John ( 10:48) or the Baptist (John 3:36)
I also see a series of "inconsistencies" In Christ's words, if Paul was indeed a genuine apostle of Christ.
Let's examine some of them
Summarizing the mystery of Pauline apostleship:

• Jesus curses the Pharisees and Sadducees with seven woes, Matthew 23:13-39 in a way he had never done to anyone else.
• He then WARNS His disciples with the caveat “BEWARE OF THE YEAST (DOCTRINE) OF THE PHARISEES! (Matthew 16:6)
• Jesus then proceeds to appoint Saul, the vicious Church persecuting Pharisee, as His apostle, as per Paul’s story (Acts 9:1-19)
• The apostles are NOT informed by Christ that He wants to appoint a thirteenth apostle. Neither does Christ thwart the eleven handpicked apostles in choosing a twelfth apostle, Matthias, to replace the betraying apostle Judas Acts 1:12-26
• 
  
• Paul partook in the destruction of the innocent and virtuous man Stephen’s temple of Holy Spirit. In 1 Corinthians 3:17, Paul warns, "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple." So by his own mouth Paul subjects / exposes himself to destruction by God
• 
  
• Paul had committed unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and yet Jesus goes against His own words and not only forgives Paul but appoints him as his 13th Apostle. Let’s us read what Jesus warns us about the unpardonable sin by Jesus’ own teaching in Matthew 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
• This is what Paul says by his own mouth in 1Timothy 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
• (Acts 26:11).
• “ And I punished them—the new believers -- often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.”
• So Paul not only blasphemed himself buy compelled several others to do the same--- perform the unpardonable sin
  
  
• Paul provides three different, and inconsistent accounts about his conversion experience
• Pharisee Saul aka Paul leaves for ARABIA instead of Jerusalem for 3 long years after conversion, without meeting or sharing his experience with any of Christ’s apostles. This is what Paul says in Galatians 1: 17-20
• “Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie”
• 
  
• Christ commends the Church of Ephesus for exposing false apostles (Revelations 2:2) which had previously rejected apostle Paul, at least on one occasion
• Christ goes on to reject/ exclude one of the now thirteen apostles in Revelation 21: 14 where only twelve apostles’ names are mentioned. Only one of the two --- Matthias(hand-picked by the apostles of Christ) or Paul ----will find a place/name in the new Jerusalem
• Finally against the warning of Christ in Matthew 23:9 ► “Do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven” Paul goes on to say in 1 Corinthians 4:15 ► Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel

Two things,
I get the idea Paul really understands God's Grace and his behavior models and bears the fruit of true renentance.

But I think many misunderstand Paul's teachings on Grace. Peter has this to say.

2 Peter 3:16

English Standard Version
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.