Who were the witnesses at Paul's Conversion?

[JLB]

Brother JLB thank you for your words of edification and encouragement. I have learned so much from you, wondering and some others here /\
I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in paul and his apostleship or even his doctrine.
If the Solafide doctrine is taught in an overwhelming number of Christian Churches, it is due to the 13th apostle, Apostle Paul--even though you have repeatedly pointed out, Sister wondering as well, that whenever paul says believe, we have to consider he meant obey as well, in that word Believe, else it does not make sense.
Also if there is a confusion in the minds of Pastors and teachers and Shephards of Christian Churches that the "Law is Dead ( to the Christian), and we are now under Grace" it's also because of Pauline doctrine, which insists we are not under law but under Grace. Fiannly Pualine doctrien ( in my opinion only) obstacles the pristine and beautiful and perfect teachings of the Messiah, the savior of mankind's Red lettered words. Once Paul is put in the back seat and Christ's red-lettered words in the forefront, only then will we see a dramatically different picture of salvation emerge. And apart from faith in Lord Jesus Christ, there will be an equally vitally important facet of OBEDIENCE which was minimized by paul. Not by God or His prophets and most certainly not by the Son (Matthew 10:38, Matthew 7:21, John 14:15) or James ( 2:19-20) or John ( 10:48) or the Baptist (John 3:36)
I also see a series of "inconsistencies" In Christ's words, if Paul was indeed a genuine apostle of Christ.
Let's examine some of them
Summarizing the mystery of Pauline apostleship:

• Jesus curses the Pharisees and Sadducees with seven woes, Matthew 23:13-39 in a way he had never done to anyone else.
• He then WARNS His disciples with the caveat “BEWARE OF THE YEAST (DOCTRINE) OF THE PHARISEES! (Matthew 16:6)
• Jesus then proceeds to appoint Saul, the vicious Church persecuting Pharisee, as His apostle, as per Paul’s story (Acts 9:1-19)
• The apostles are NOT informed by Christ that He wants to appoint a thirteenth apostle. Neither does Christ thwart the eleven handpicked apostles in choosing a twelfth apostle, Matthias, to replace the betraying apostle Judas Acts 1:12-26
• 
  
• Paul partook in the destruction of the innocent and virtuous man Stephen’s temple of Holy Spirit. In 1 Corinthians 3:17, Paul warns, "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple." So by his own mouth Paul subjects / exposes himself to destruction by God
• 
  
• Paul had committed unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and yet Jesus goes against His own words and not only forgives Paul but appoints him as his 13th Apostle. Let’s us read what Jesus warns us about the unpardonable sin by Jesus’ own teaching in Matthew 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
• This is what Paul says by his own mouth in 1Timothy 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
• (Acts 26:11).
• “ And I punished them—the new believers -- often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.”
• So Paul not only blasphemed himself buy compelled several others to do the same--- perform the unpardonable sin
  
  
• Paul provides three different, and inconsistent accounts about his conversion experience
• Pharisee Saul aka Paul leaves for ARABIA instead of Jerusalem for 3 long years after conversion, without meeting or sharing his experience with any of Christ’s apostles. This is what Paul says in Galatians 1: 17-20
• “Nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie”
• 
  
• Christ commends the Church of Ephesus for exposing false apostles (Revelations 2:2) which had previously rejected apostle Paul, at least on one occasion
• Christ goes on to reject/ exclude one of the now thirteen apostles in Revelation 21: 14 where only twelve apostles’ names are mentioned. Only one of the two --- Matthias(hand-picked by the apostles of Christ) or Paul ----will find a place/name in the new Jerusalem
• Finally against the warning of Christ in Matthew 23:9 ► “Do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven” Paul goes on to say in 1 Corinthians 4:15 ► Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel

Paul taught obedience to Christ and His teachings.

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

Paul scolded them for thinking there were followers of Paul, rather than Christ.

Paul‘s doctrine is the doctrine of Christ.

Paul preached Christ and him crucified.


Please keep discussing these things, as it seems you have come under the influence of some dangerous teaching from those who are an extreme sect of Messianic Judaism.




JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Brother JLB , thank you for your reply. Even your rebuke does not hurt me, since I cannot forget I have learned from you /\ . In our debates with some fellow brethren/ members, we had often-times contended together, side by side for the obedience of ( also) for our Lord( all is recorded here on the website) , and I could never have thought we would be debating a point one-day But then let us pray the Lord Jesus who we both have deep love and faith, may He give us the wisdom and courage to boldly speak His word. I pray love on all here and even those who are not here. I do not even know who or what Messianic Judaism is-- the name is itself scary. All I have is Christ to teach me, and His Word, our Bible. Again I repeat I have learned a lot from this forum than anywhere else BECAUSE this is HOW the Churches should have always been --- at least partially INTERACTIVE, if not completely, as they did immediately after the Lord, and plenty of questions asked lest we all unite in error if the teacher/ pastor is in error. Submitted all in Love and respect. JLB while I prepare an answer to what you wrote ( i write a bit slow now to avoid typos and any knee jerk reactions, but provide a Biblically consistent response) can I request you to answer point wise why did Jesus not implement his own words?
remember friend I'm here only to point repeatedly at the words the caveats and the commands of the Christ. It is true I am completely obsessed with Christ and cannot look beyond Him. If I see any inconsistency, in any other writer in the NT stating something which clashes/ not consistent with what Jesus taught, I will be pointing it out. In the whole process hopefully, I will learn from everyone here /\
Honestly I did not see any inconsistency anywhere by any writer of the books of NT except one. And therefore for my own edification I asked the questions and would deeply appreciate point by point response, and for which I will be grateful
To me, its always Christ's words First, and if my words or posts do not reflect that, let Lord be my judge. Not to digress, I request brother JLB, and everybody else would like to share, to answer point wise why did Jesus turn around and do opposite of his caveat and appointed a pharisee as his thirteenth apostle, plus the other eight points I raised from the Word. many thanks /\.. Raj

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Paul did not teach faith only, he did teach "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16.

Paul and James are in agreement that obedient works are necessary to being saved:

James 2:24-------------------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
Paul (Rom 6:17-18)------obey from the heart>>>>>>>>justified-freed from sin

Thank you for sharing/replying.
I would like you to take a gander at some other verses of Paul where he fails to mention the importance of obedience in his salvation doctrine -- his emphasis in the totally being on faith alone
If Paul and James are in agreement that obedient works are necessary to being saved, wht was paul teaching the following? ( which has caused lot of confusion in modern-day Church doctrine)

“If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.” ( Romans 10:9-10)

“For, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” (Romans 10:13)

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. "Romans 5:12)

Romans 3:28

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
( here he talks about as if salvation is a free gift to everyone who merely believes!)
Not the case says Jesus and John the baptist and john the apostle and James the brother of the Lord

 

[Corn Pop]

Maybe the new covenant scripture is a little bit Paul breathed?

"To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord).."

"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord).."

I will tell you what I notice, and that's when someone adds or subtracts. The words in the brackets in my opinion have been added correct me if im wrong.

 

[Corn Pop]

Oh, I just seen other versions and they just say it as it is. Anyhow Paul seems to say a couple things and in one he says it is from the Lord not himself and another he says it is from himself and not the Lord, so that would not be all God breathed correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Who Me]

Jihadis/ Terrorists also go through considerable hardships and mostly get killed/ executed for their (heinous) acts. Many are not even paid. Yet they do it out of their religious motivations. they believe the " god" they serve will reward them

Paul prior to his convertion committed heinous acts, following his convertion he
acted out of love for God and for others.
A significant difference in behaviour.
It is also worth noting that atheist historians and theologians, yes they do exist ( Bart Erhman for one ,)
Regard Paul's testimony of meeting the risen Jesus as the only eyewitness account in the new testament .
You may challenge it but you will have to provide solid evidence for your challenge.

 

[Corn Pop]

I need to study more.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Maybe the new covenant scripture is a little bit Paul breathed?

"To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord).."

"To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord).."

I will tell you what I notice, and that's when someone adds or subtracts. The words in the brackets in my opinion have been added correct me if im wrong.

Thank you for sharing that thought/ view--- "Maybe the new covenant scripture is a little bit Paul breathed?" I am in agreement with that -- for I get the same message when I read the NT
I sincerely feel the "New Testament" should have always been "New Covenant" as you wrote.
In line with what you said I would like to add :
Paul says in 2Timothy 3:16

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness”
While saying that Paul may have forgotten there are verses of the evil one also in the Bible. If ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED , as Paul claims ( no other writer in entire Bible did-- please correct me if I am wrong), then paul has included scripture mouthed by the devil as God-breathed as well.

Lets us see the following accounts recorded for us in the Word:

Matthew 4:1-11

Christ tempted by the devil in the wilderness

4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test."

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.



Job 1:6-12

An Encounter between God and Satan

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord


Genesis –the Fall of man

Genesis 3

The Fall

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

There could be more, but for the time being, I am aware only of these.

Ask questions friends, read the red-letter words of the Lord Jesus more deeply and frequently than ever, is a humble prayer. When I did that, I got a message entirely different than what is commonly taught. It was all about love, and not (just) salvation. Love was/is salvation (1John 4:8, John 10:30 )


/\

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

My apologies some words in above reply came highlighted bold. I didnt want to. It just came like that. so please excuse me for that.

 

[JLB]

Even your rebuke does not hurt me

Not a rebuke, but I am concerned for you.


Please consider that the writings in the New Testament are inspired by God, yet they may be misunderstood.

Please be open to the idea that Paul was taught by Jesus Christ, and was sent to teach His doctrine.



JLB

 

[Son of Israel]

Yes, Paul and the Apostles spoke as moved by the Holy Spirit, as is evidenced by all the scriptures they've written and hold up perfectly under any caliber of scrutiny.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If they spoke it, It was Jesus speaking through them.

Luke wrote Acts, a continuance of his writings of the Gospel of Luke. He speaks of being an eyewitness;

Luk 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Luk 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

But as we know from the perfect writings of Paul, He is of the Mind of Christ, as so are we who are of the same Spirit of Christ in us who reveals all things;

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

No one can ever successfully point out a discrimination of the Words of Paul with anything else of scriptures, as all scriptures is authored by the Holy Spirit of Christ our Lord and perfectly agrees in one.

 

[for_his_glory]

Rajesh Sahu it is always a pleasure to have you with us as you are a part of the CF family and never stop questioning those things you do not understand for that is how we mature in the word of God. Just make sure what others are telling you lines up with the word of God.

All scripture from Genesis to Revelations is God breathed as God gave to the Prophets and Apostles what to speak as they wrote that of their witness testifying of Christ. Just like Jesus said in John 12:49, 50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Here is a little history lesson. Acts was not written by Paul, but by Luke who was a physician and a traveling companion of Paul. The "we" sections of 16:10-17; 20:5-21:18; and 27:1-28:16 was Luke's own memory if not some kind of diary. It's likely that Luke, who was not part of the twelve disciples of Christ, had opportunities to interview such key witnesses in Jerusalem as Peter and John for the information he wrote in Chapters 1-12. Acts 15:23-29 and 23:26-30 indicate that Luke may have used written documents as well.

There were no witnesses to what Jesus spoke to Paul that day when he fell before Him being surrounded by the light of Christ. It was Paul who gave witness of what Jesus said to him in Acts 9:1-6.

Acts 9:1-18 When Saul being a Pharisee who persecuted the Christians, later named Paul by Christ, was on the road to Damascus suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven as Jesus began to speak to him. Notice, the light only shined around Paul being in the midst of it as the men which journeyed with him saw the light according to what Luke quoted Paul saying in Acts 9:7 and 22:9 and stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man . That verse only says they heard a voice, but says nothing about if they actually heard what the voice was saying. It's like us saying we heard a voice, but couldn't make out what it was saying.

It is not found in scripture what happen to those men who journeyed with Paul other then taking him by the hand and leading him back to Damascus. It was there that Ananias, a disciple of Christ, received a vision from Jesus who spoke to Ananias to go out to Paul and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight and be filled with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Acts 9:10-18. Jesus gave to Ananias what to speak to Paul as we read this in Acts 9:10-18.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thank you for sharing/replying.
I would like you to take a gander at some other verses of Paul where he fails to mention the importance of obedience in his salvation doctrine -- his emphasis in the totally being on faith alone
If Paul and James are in agreement that obedient works are necessary to being saved, wht was paul teaching the following? ( which has caused lot of confusion in modern-day Church doctrine)

“If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.” ( Romans 10:9-10)

“For, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” (Romans 10:13)

In the context of Rom 10 Paul was lamenting over the fact that his brothers in the the flesh, the Jews were lost, Rom 10:1-3. Notice in Rom 10:3 Pal said they were lost for they had not submitted/obeyed the righteousness of God. Rom 10:16 they were lost for not obeying the gospel. Hence Paul was requiring obedience to God's righteous commands in order for those Jews to be saved

Rom 10:13 the phrase 'calling on the name of the Lord" means DOING what the Lord has said to do cf Lk 6:46

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. "Romans 5:12)

Paul said justified by faith. Paul did NOT say justified by faith only. Men come along and add the word "only" to Paul's writings. There is a difference between faith and faith only and Paul cannot be faulted for men changing what he wrote.
Men have tried to change some things Peter wrote also.

Romans 3:28

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

In the context of the first two chapters or Romans Paul shows how all, Jew and Gentile, are sinners and in need of justification. Beginning chapter 3 Paul tells us the Jews were given their own law, the law of Moses. That law gave the Jews many advantages but one thing that law could not do was justify the Jew. The OT law of Moses required the work of strict perfect flawless law keeping to be justified. Yet no Jew could keep it perfectly. So the perfect works required by the OT law of Moses could not justify Jew nor Gentile. Paul ends Rom 3 by telling us what can justify Jew and Gentile, that being faith. Again, Paul did NOT say faith only.

In Rom 3;28 Paul is contrasting faith from the flawless work the OT law of Moses required. Paul is saying faith justifies not the flawless, perfect work required by the law of Moses.

In Rom 4 Paul picks two men to make his point, Abraham (Gentile) and David (Jew). Paul already said Jew and Gentile are under sin and need of justification. Rom 3 we see the OT law of Moses could not justify Abraham or David for they both sinned while the OT law required the work of perfect law keeping. Rom 4:5 So Abraham and David were justified by an obedient faith not by perfect flawless works required by the OT law.

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

"Worketh not" is contrasted from 'believeth'. Paul is showing Abraham did not work to keep the OT law perfectly to be justified but he was justified by his obedient belief. There are those that take "worketh not" out of context and claim it eliminates all works. But the only work in the context of Romans chapters 1-4 that Paul eliminates from justifying is the flawless work required by the OT law of Moses.

How could Abraham be one who 'worketh not" when in fact he DID do obedient works, Hebrews 11:8,17? Again, the contrast Paul is making in Rom 4:5 is Abraham did not work to keep the OT law of Moses perfectly to be justified but was justified by an obedient faith. Those that take "worketh not" out of context and try to make it eliminate all works create contradictions among scriptures.

David a Jew that lived under the law of Moses was not justified by that law for he sinned.
"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."
Does God forgive and cover the sins of the disobedient, impenitent man? Or does God forgive the obedient, penitent man? God forgives the obedient man as David who repented of his sins.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
( here he talks about as if salvation is a free gift to everyone who merely believes!)
Not the case says Jesus and John the baptist and john the apostle and James the brother of the Lord

The 'not of works" refers to works of merit. If one could merit his salvation he would have something to boast about. So Paul is eliminating works of merit NOT obedience to God's will. If "not of works" eliminated ALL works that would contradict Eph 2:10 that requires the Christian to do good works. Hence the faith onlyists create more contradictions by trying to make "not of works" eliminate ALL works.

Paul does not contradict himself. In Rom 6:16 Paul spoke of "obedience UNTO righteousness". In Rom 6:17-18 Paul put 'obeying from the heart" then one is justified. Clearly Paul puts obedience BEFORE justification.

Paul eliminated flawless, perfect works the OT law of Moses required from justifying anyone Rom 4:5. Paul eliminated works of merit from justifying anyone Eph 2:9. Paul NEVER eliminated obedience from justifying anyone but instead required obedience.

In Rom 6 Paul shows how 'grace alone' does not justify. Instead it takes God's grace and man's obedience in order to be justified. Just because a Christian is saved by grace does not give the Christian the right to sin. The Christian must be obedient in order to not be a servant of "sin unto death" Rom 6:18.

Men twist and turn what Paul wrote but nowhere ever did Paul eliminate obedience from being saved. In Paul's own conversion there was something he "must do" Acts 9:6. And in Acts 22:16 we see Paul was obedient in doing what he was commanded to do, that being, water baptized to have his sins washed away.

Acts 15:7 "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe."
Peter said men must believe but he did NOT say believe only. We know from what Peter said in Acts 2:38 that "believe" includes obedience in repenting and being baptized.

Men assume the word "only" into the writings of Paul and Peter even though neither man ever taught salvation by belief only. From Gal 1:23 we see Paul "now preacheth" the same thing Peter preached.
Saul once destroyed the faith Peter preached at Jerusalem (Acts 2) but Paul now preacheth that faith he once tried to destroy at Jerusalem.

(Sorry for such a long post, but was needed to cover all necessary information)

 

[for_his_glory]

In relation to Sola Fide, the place of works is found in Ephesians chapter 2. Justification is by grace through faith, not from yourself and not by works. It is by faith alone since all human efforts are excluded here, Ephesians 2:8, 9. Ephesians goes on to say that every person who has faith is to produce good works according to God's plan Ephesians 2:10. We know also that faith without works is dead faith

These works , however, are not a cause for forgiveness, but a result of forgiveness. Faith alone justifies, but faith is never alone as it followed by good works. The works of love are the goal of the saving faith, 1 Timothy 1:5.

James 1:16-18 clearly teaches that the recipients of the letter have been justified by God through the saving gospel which is Christ Jesus who is our faith. James also taught in James 2:14-26 that faith is dead within us if not followed by good works as it takes faith and good works to justify us. It begins with faith alone when we first accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and then we become his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

In the context of Rom 10 Paul was lamenting over the fact that his brothers in the the flesh, the Jews were lost, Rom 10:1-3. Notice in Rom 10:3 Pal said they were lost for they had not submitted/obeyed the righteousness of God. Rom 10:16 they were lost for not obeying the gospel. Hence Paul was requiring obedience to God's righteous commands in order for those Jews to be saved

Rom 10:13 the phrase 'calling on the name of the Lord" means DOING what the Lord has said to do cf Lk 6:46



Paul said justified by faith. Paul did NOT say justified by faith only. Men come along and add the word "only" to Paul's writings. There is a difference between faith and faith only and Paul cannot be faulted for men changing what he wrote.
Men have tried to change some things Peter wrote also.



In the context of the first two chapters or Romans Paul shows how all, Jew and Gentile, are sinners and in need of justification. Beginning chapter 3 Paul tells us the Jews were given their own law, the law of Moses. That law gave the Jews many advantages but one thing that law could not do was justify the Jew. The OT law of Moses required the work of strict perfect flawless law keeping to be justified. Yet no Jew could keep it perfectly. So the perfect works required by the OT law of Moses could not justify Jew nor Gentile. Paul ends Rom 3 by telling us what can justify Jew and Gentile, that being faith. Again, Paul did NOT say faith only.

In Rom 3;28 Paul is contrasting faith from the flawless work the OT law of Moses required. Paul is saying faith justifies not the flawless, perfect work required by the law of Moses.

In Rom 4 Paul picks two men to make his point, Abraham (Gentile) and David (Jew). Paul already said Jew and Gentile are under sin and need of justification. Rom 3 we see the OT law of Moses could not justify Abraham or David for they both sinned while the OT law required the work of perfect law keeping. Rom 4:5 So Abraham and David were justified by an obedient faith not by perfect flawless works required by the OT law.

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

"Worketh not" is contrasted from 'believeth'. Paul is showing Abraham did not work to keep the OT law perfectly to be justified but he was justified by his obedient belief. There are those that take "worketh not" out of context and claim it eliminates all works. But the only work in the context of Romans chapters 1-4 that Paul eliminates from justifying is the flawless work required by the OT law of Moses.

How could Abraham be one who 'worketh not" when in fact he DID do obedient works, Hebrews 11:8,17? Again, the contrast Paul is making in Rom 4:5 is Abraham did not work to keep the OT law of Moses perfectly to be justified but was justified by an obedient faith. Those that take "worketh not" out of context and try to make it eliminate all works create contradictions among scriptures.

David a Jew that lived under the law of Moses was not justified by that law for he sinned.
"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."
Does God forgive and cover the sins of the disobedient, impenitent man? Or does God forgive the obedient, penitent man? God forgives the obedient man as David who repented of his sins.




The 'not of works" refers to works of merit. If one could merit his salvation he would have something to boast about. So Paul is eliminating works of merit NOT obedience to God's will. If "not of works" eliminated ALL works that would contradict Eph 2:10 that requires the Christian to do good works. Hence the faith onlyists create more contradictions by trying to make "not of works" eliminate ALL works.

Paul does not contradict himself. In Rom 6:16 Paul spoke of "obedience UNTO righteousness". In Rom 6:17-18 Paul put 'obeying from the heart" then one is justified. Clearly Paul puts obedience BEFORE justification.

Paul eliminated flawless, perfect works the OT law of Moses required from justifying anyone Rom 4:5. Paul eliminated works of merit from justifying anyone Eph 2:9. Paul NEVER eliminated obedience from justifying anyone but instead required obedience.

In Rom 6 Paul shows how 'grace alone' does not justify. Instead it takes God's grace and man's obedience in order to be justified. Just because a Christian is saved by grace does not give the Christian the right to sin. The Christian must be obedient in order to not be a servant of "sin unto death" Rom 6:18.

Men twist and turn what Paul wrote but nowhere ever did Paul eliminate obedience from being saved. In Paul's own conversion there was something he "must do" Acts 9:6. And in Acts 22:16 we see Paul was obedient in doing what he was commanded to do, that being, water baptized to have his sins washed away.

Acts 15:7 "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe."
Peter said men must believe but he did NOT say believe only. We know from what Peter said in Acts 2:38 that "believe" includes obedience in repenting and being baptized.

Men assume the word "only" into the writings of Paul and Peter even though neither man ever taught salvation by belief only. From Gal 1:23 we see Paul "now preacheth" the same thing Peter preached.
Saul once destroyed the faith Peter preached at Jerusalem (Acts 2) but Paul now preacheth that faith he once tried to destroy at Jerusalem.

(Sorry for such a long post, but was needed to cover all necessary information)

Thank you for your exhaustive reply. Just proves your commitment to the Word and the love for our Lord God bless you . It will take me at least two days to reply, since I'm mostly cleaning , cooking or working. Sounds familiar huh in covid days! Plus getting close to 60 now. I do not have the same energy I had. But hope to reply by weekend . Debates ( with love and respect) are good. "As iron sharpens iron....." so please bear with me. Meanwhile thank you again for your response and edification. Much appreciated ?

 

[Prycejosh1987]

So if we accept Paul as true apostle of Christ ( unlike some of the Corinthians who were demanding proof) WHO WERE THE TWO OR THREE WITNESSES ON WHOSE TESTIMONY WAS THE CONVERSION MATTER OF PAUL ESTABLISHED?

I suppose the witnesses would have ben the men that were with Paul in Damascus when Jesus spoken to him, these men heard Jesus speaking. They saw the light and heard the noise of him speaking. Ananias would have been another witness.