[__ Science __ ] Why Are Wasps So Evil?

[AIG.com]

If God is good, why are some creatures so bad?

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[Vinny37]

Foregoing any silly talk about god-types (a good god, a loving personal god), I think that God front-loaded biological evolution, coding cellular life with intelligence to survive, to reproduce, and to evolve (Perry Marshall’s Evolution 2.0). As nature built itself there was bound to be some predatory nature, though one hopes that sub-human predation is sub-human pain (C S Lewis’ The Problem of Pain). Pain is a natural part of life, which even God’s son incarnate, went through. Anthony Flew got over the problem of pain (There is a God), as will the redeemed at the eschaton.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If God is good, why are some creatures so bad?

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Because Satan corrupted the earth just like he corrupts men's minds, and the same Old Testament God of love who created man and created Paradise will restore the entire earth to it once He is done dealing with the Devil and those who serve him.

 

[Uncle J]

It's always interesting to see how creationists reconcile the existence of nasty, terrible things in the biological world with their arguments about evolution not being able to generate complexity or increase "genetic information".

A good example is plasmodium (the parasite that causes malaria) and its life cycle, as depicted in the following image....

Obviously that's a pretty complex life cycle that requires a fair bit of "genetic information". So, if creationist arguments are right and evolution is incapable of generating such complexity and "genetic information", the question becomes....where did it come from?

Did Satan create it? If so, does that mean Satan has creative power and can therefore be referred to as a "creator"?

Did God create it? If so, why would God deliberately create an organism with the ability to cause countless deaths and horrible suffering?

 

[Hidden In Him]

It's always interesting to see how creationists reconcile the existence of nasty, terrible things in the biological world with their arguments about evolution not being able to generate complexity or increase "genetic information".

While I like AIG, I think their response is weak with respect to traditional Christian doctrine here.

The simple response is that the earth was corrupted and learned to kill and destroy just like mankind did.

 

[Uncle J]

The simple response is that the earth was corrupted and learned to kill and destroy just like mankind did.

But that doesn't answer the question of how (i.e., by what specific mechanisms) plasmodium acquired such a complex life cycle.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But that doesn't answer the question of how (i.e., by what specific mechanisms) plasmodium acquired such a complex life cycle.

It wasn't trying to, Lol.

Sin entered the world, the protection against all forms of death was removed, and all of creation learned to kill, initially in emulation of man but then in emulation and response to one another. As for more complex cases like the one you are presenting, NOTHING was created with the power to kill mankind. They acquired that power only after man sinned, and not because they somehow became more "powerful" but because mankind became weaker, and more susceptible to every form of death, not just this one.

 

[Uncle J]

It wasn't trying it, Lol.

Ah, got it.

Sin entered the world, the protection against all forms of death was removed, and all of creation learned to kill, initially in emulation of man but then in emulation and response to one another. As for more complex cases like the one you are presenting, NOTHING was created with the power to kill mankind. They acquired that power only after man sinned, and not because they somehow became more "powerful" but because mankind became weaker, and more susceptible to every form of death, not just this one.

Yep, I understand the Christian explanation for why some organisms acquired such terrible traits. But since this is the "Christianity and Science" sub-forum and given AiG's (the author of the OP) arguments against evolution's ability to generate such traits, my focus is on how they acquired the traits.

And just as an FYI, I've had several Christians answer by saying that yes indeed, God did create the complexity and "genetic information" necessary for the plasmodium parasite to do its thing. They argue that it was part of God's punishment after the Fall. Seems kinda twisted to me though.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, got it.



Yep, I understand the Christian explanation for why some organisms acquired such terrible traits. But since this is the "Christianity and Science" sub-forum and given AiG's (the author of the OP) arguments against evolution's ability to generate such traits, my focus is on how they acquired the traits.

And just as an FYI, I've had several Christians answer by saying that yes indeed, God did create the complexity and "genetic information" necessary for the plasmodium parasite to do its thing. They argue that it was part of God's punishment after the Fall. Seems kinda twisted to me though.

How do you suppose a non-Christian could understand Christian things?
That's kind of like saying that you know what it's like to have a baby if you've never had one.

You'll get different answers from different Christians.

If you want to believe in evolution, it's OK.
Some Christians believe in macro evolution too.
Nothing wrong with it.

What YOU have to decide is whether or not God even exists.
And if you believe He doesn't, then I do love to ask how everything came about.
And I do hope you don't say that something could come from nothing.

 

[Hidden In Him]

And just as an FYI, I've had several Christians answer by saying that yes indeed, God did create the complexity and "genetic information" necessary for the plasmodium parasite to do its thing. They argue that it was part of God's punishment after the Fall. Seems kinda twisted to me though.

I don't argue for that. I don't think it was part of God's punishment for Cain to kill Abel either, or He wouldn't have punished him for it when he did. The punishment was simply to remove Adam and Eve from the tree of Life, and with it their protection was removed.

Yep, I understand the Christian explanation for why some organisms acquired such terrible traits. But since this is the "Christianity and Science" sub-forum and given AiG's (the author of the OP) arguments against evolution's ability to generate such traits, my focus is on how they acquired the traits.

I admire your efforts. Not something I'd ever have time for, though I am sure more scientifically educated creationists might be able to dialogue with you a little better on a subject like that.

 

[Uncle J]

How do you suppose a non-Christian could understand Christian things?
That's kind of like saying that you know what it's like to have a baby if you've never had one.

Well, it's not like the question I'm asking should be technically difficult.

You'll get different answers from different Christians.

That's for sure!

If you want to believe in evolution, it's OK.
Some Christians believe in macro evolution too.
Nothing wrong with it.

Good to know.

What YOU have to decide is whether or not God even exists.
And if you believe He doesn't, then I do love to ask how everything came about.
And I do hope you don't say that something could come from nothing.

LOL....everything? You want me to explain how everything in existence came about? Sure, and right after I finish with that I'll solve world hunger, unite quantum mechanics and general relativity, and usher in world peace.

 

[Uncle J]

I don't argue for that. I don't think it was part of God's punishment for Cain to kill Abel either, or He wouldn't have punished him for it when he did. The punishment was simply to remove Adam and Eve from the tree of Life, and with it their protection was removed.


I admire your efforts. Not something I'd ever have time for, though I am sure more scientifically educated creationists might be able to dialogue with you a little better on a subject like that.

Thanks. I've always found it an interesting question that generates quite a conundrum.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, it's not like the question I'm asking should be technically difficult.


That's for sure!


Good to know.


LOL....everything? You want me to explain how everything in existence came about? Sure, and right after I finish with that I'll solve world hunger, unite quantum mechanics and general relativity, and usher in world peace.

Yes. EVERYTHING.
The entire universe.

Scientists used to believe the universe always existed.
Then in the 50's or maybe the 60's, due to the expansion of the planets, stars, and everything else that makes up the universe, Science figured out that, wow, the universe had a beginning!

Now what?

How did it get here.
Lawrence Krauss wasn't too happy about this, so instead of trying to figure out how the universe began, he took the lazy way out and just decided that something could come from nothing.

Great idea. But it doesn't seem to be something science agrees on.
He did sell some books however.

So. Yeah. How do YOU think everything --- EVERYTHING --- came about?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Thanks. I've always found it an interesting question that generates quite a conundrum.

We have one or two here who might be able to address it. Brother Roy might, but I haven't seen him on in awhile, and I'm not sure what he would say either. Pretty small forum.

But I came to my determinations on evolution and creation a very long time ago, so I simply wouldn't be much use for it, Lol.

God bless, and thanks for courteous interchange just the same.
- H

 

[Uncle J]

Yes. EVERYTHING.
The entire universe.

Scientists used to believe the universe always existed.
Then in the 50's or maybe the 60's, due to the expansion of the planets, stars, and everything else that makes up the universe, Science figured out that, wow, the universe had a beginning!

Now what?

How did it get here.
Lawrence Krauss wasn't too happy about this, so instead of trying to figure out how the universe began, he took the lazy way out and just decided that something could come from nothing.

Great idea. But it doesn't seem to be something science agrees on.
He did sell some books however.

So. Yeah. How do YOU think everything --- EVERYTHING --- came about?

Ah, so you're asking me how I personally think the universe came to be. Honestly, it's not something I've spent a lot of time or effort looking into. I've casually browsed some info on it, but that's about it.

So my answer is basically.....I don't really know.

And FYI, I'm fine with that. There's lots of things we all don't know.

 

[Uncle J]

We have one or two here who might be able to address it. Brother Roy might, but I haven't seen him on in awhile, and I'm not sure what he would say either. Pretty small forum.

But I came to my determinations on evolution and creation a very long time ago, so I simply wouldn't be much use for it, Lol.

God bless, and thanks for courteous interchange just the same.
- H

Same to you!

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, so you're asking me how I personally think the universe came to be. Honestly, it's not something I've spent a lot of time or effort looking into. I've casually browsed some info on it, but that's about it.

So my answer is basically.....I don't really know.

And FYI, I'm fine with that. There's lots of things we all don't know.

I think what we don't know is more than what we do know.
I'm of the opinion that what we see around us had to come about in some way.
It either just happened all by itself somehow, or something caused it to happen.
And this thing that caused it to happen....it had to be outside of time and space.
If you're walking along on the beach and happen to come upon a book, you pick it up
and you know immediately that it didn't make itself.
Something had to make it.
And that thing that made it had to be outside of the book,,,so that it could actually make the book.

This is how I feel about the universe.
Something had to make it.
Something that was not created, because if you go back far enough, you must come upon the uncreated that created everything else. So it had to be something powerful and intelligent and outside of time.
God seems to fit these requirements.

As to evolution...I think we all agree on micro evolution...
It's macro evolution that causes some problems.
The Cambrian Explosion was a problem even for Darwin.
The eye evolving is a problem.
The interior of a cell, full of little machines, is a problem.

But you're not looking for answers right now.
When you begin to (IF you begin to) you'll find that it's very complicated.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Uncle J]

I think what we don't know is more than what we do know.
I'm of the opinion that what we see around us had to come about in some way.
It either just happened all by itself somehow, or something caused it to happen.
And this thing that caused it to happen....it had to be outside of time and space.
If you're walking along on the beach and happen to come upon a book, you pick it up
and you know immediately that it didn't make itself.
Something had to make it.
And that thing that made it had to be outside of the book,,,so that it could actually make the book.

This is how I feel about the universe.
Something had to make it.
Something that was not created, because if you go back far enough, you must come upon the uncreated that created everything else. So it had to be something powerful and intelligent and outside of time.
God seems to fit these requirements.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

As to evolution...I think we all agree on micro evolution...
It's macro evolution that causes some problems.
The Cambrian Explosion was a problem even for Darwin.
The eye evolving is a problem.
The interior of a cell, full of little machines, is a problem.

But you're not looking for answers right now.
When you begin to (IF you begin to) you'll find that it's very complicated.

Actually, unlike with cosmology and astrophysics, I'm quite familiar with biology. In fact, I've been a professional biologist for about 25 years now. I'm also extremely well-versed in creationism and the arguments creationists tend to make (like what you posted above). And no, "macroevolution" isn't a problem, it's simply observed reality. The other things you listed aren't "problems" either. Rather, some aspects of some of those things are unresolved but that's why we have science. After all, if we knew everything about everything, science would be done!

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks!

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

I find this interesting.

Actually, unlike with cosmology and astrophysics, I'm quite familiar with biology. In fact, I've been a professional biologist for about 25 years now. I'm also extremely well-versed in creationism and the arguments creationists tend to make (like what you posted above). And no, "macroevolution" isn't a problem, it's simply observed reality. The other things you listed aren't "problems" either. Rather, some aspects of some of those things are unresolved but that's why we have science. After all, if we knew everything about everything, science would be done!

Richard Dawkins is a biologist.
Then there are some biologists that have come to believe in God.
No one really knows exactly why some scientists believe and some don't.
I believe God created everything first. If by Creationist you mean those that believe the earth is 6,000 years old, well, I don't think there are too many of those around anymore. But they're allowed to believe what they will.

I don't know how macroevolution could be observed every day since it takes millions of years for change.
I'm sure you also know about the Time Problem. Sorry to bring up all these problems which are not problems for you.
When science believed the universe always existed, there would have been time for this macro evolution.
Now we know that the universe is about 14 billion years old and the earth about 4 billion. This cuts down the time that the changes would have need in order to evolve. You don't find this to be a problem?

As to knowing science....Some things are unresolved and may never be resolved.
But, as you well know, the reason science could even function at all is because there are laws in nature that make experiments possible because these laws never change.

So how did these laws come about?
We know about math...but how was it created?
Yes. It's interesting to dwell on these ideas.

The apple fell down.
What is gravity anyway?
No one really knows.
And yet it works well to allow us to stick to the planet!

To speak nothing of the planets, sun, etc.
It's awe-inspiring.

Thanks!

 

[Uncle J]

Richard Dawkins is a biologist.
Then there are some biologists that have come to believe in God.
No one really knows exactly why some scientists believe and some don't.
I believe God created everything first. If by Creationist you mean those that believe the earth is 6,000 years old, well, I don't think there are too many of those around anymore. But they're allowed to believe what they will.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I say "creationist" I mean those who deny evolution and instead believe a god or gods created organisms and their traits.

I don't know how macroevolution could be observed every day since it takes millions of years for change.

"Microevolution" is evolutionary change within a species, such as bacteria evolving resistance to antibiotics. "Macroevolution" is evolutionary change above that, such as the evolution of new species, which has been observed many times in the wild and in the lab.

I'm sure you also know about the Time Problem. Sorry to bring up all these problems which are not problems for you.
When science believed the universe always existed, there would have been time for this macro evolution.
Now we know that the universe is about 14 billion years old and the earth about 4 billion. This cuts down the time that the changes would have need in order to evolve. You don't find this to be a problem?

Nope, not at all. The closest I've seen come from old creationist arguments that typically center on the strawman of evolution occurring strictly "by chance" (and thus ignoring the role of natural selection).

As to knowing science....Some things are unresolved and may never be resolved.
But, as you well know, the reason science could even function at all is because there are laws in nature that make experiments possible because these laws never change.

So how did these laws come about?
We know about math...but how was it created?
Yes. It's interesting to dwell on these ideas.

Well scientific laws and mathematics came from humans. They're simply our depictions of the natural world.

The apple fell down.
What is gravity anyway?
No one really knows.
And yet it works well to allow us to stick to the planet!

To speak nothing of the planets, sun, etc.
It's awe-inspiring.

It certainly is interesting how we know more about what causes evolution to work than we do with gravity.