Why believe?

[coelacanth]

OK, so I'm an atheist, and a recovering Christian. I give no credence to the idea of a personal God; I do not think that there is an actual entity which occupies the seat of omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, etc. However, I use that imaginary entity as a yardstick for self-evaluation quite frequently (in the way that those "What Would Jesus Do?" people look at their wrist-bracelet for inspiration ;) )

So what is wrong with that? Why must I actually believe?

 

[Rick W]

Would someone else benefit in some way if you did?

 

[coelacanth]

No

 

[Barbarian]

You got your ethics from a Christian perspective. No doubt you will retain them for a long time, if not for a lifetime.

I don't know if there is such a thing as a self-consistent atheist ethic, but there doesn't need to be, so long as the Christian one works for you.

 

[coelacanth]

Thanks Barbarian, my ethics are relativistic (as I would say even a fundamentalist's are) but self-consistent. However, my main question was why would a God insist on belief? Is there no respect given for rational skepticism with an open mind and an honest heart that comes to the conclusion that no personal God exists? I'm wondering why my Christian friends think I'm going to hell. What principles of justice can allow for eternal damnation for any finite crime, especially for a lack of belief?

 

[Barbarian]

I'm wondering why my Christian friends think I'm going to hell. What principles of justice can allow for eternal damnation for any finite crime, especially for a lack of belief?

I'm a Roman Catholic, so I don't think you're necessarily going to Hell...

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

We hold that those who sincerely are unable to believe (the "invincibly ignorant") are not at fault, and are held accountable by God for natural law which all men are given to know.

 

[AAA]

I'm wondering why my Christian friends think I'm going to hell. What principles of justice can allow for eternal damnation for any finite crime, especially for a lack of belief?

I'm a Roman Catholic, so I don't think you're necessarily going to Hell...

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

We hold that those who sincerely are unable to believe (the "invincibly ignorant") are not at fault, and are held accountable by God for natural law which all men are given to know.

Barbarian,

Regarding this particular Catholic belief, how much of it is the Pope's opinion and how much of it is based on scripture?

 

[coelacanth]

those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. [/b]

Barbarian, this is only a semi-serious reply. A quote from Annie Dillard:

I read about an Eskimo hunter who asked the local missionary priest, 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?' 'No', said the priest, 'not if you did not know.' 'Then why,' asked the Eskimo earnestly, 'did you tell me?'

I will reply further, but I think this little tidbit is worth mulling over...

 

[Rick W]

I read about an Eskimo hunter who asked the local missionary priest, 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?' 'No', said the priest, 'not if you did not know.' 'Then why,' asked the Eskimo earnestly, 'did you tell me?'

I will reply further, but I think this little tidbit is worth mulling over...

You heard and you know.
Anyway, Paul mulled it over.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

So, according to the law you choose to follow have you sinned against that law?

Would someone else benefit in some way if you did?

No

Christ didn't teach "self".

 

[coelacanth]

So, according to the law you choose to follow have you sinned against that law?

Yes, I have, but not greatly. I strive to make amends when I do.

Would someone else benefit in some way if you did?

No

Christ didn't teach "self".

I know. How is that relevant? That's saying nobody would benefit if I believed. Are you saying that's selfish? I honestly don't follow...

 

[Rick W]

Selfish?
No. The love of Christ is meant to be shared. Can't share something if you don't have it to share.
Christ made amends for me those things I couldn't make amends for on my own. And to share the forgiveness of Christ is to testify there's a gift to be received of eternal worth through the mercy of God.

 

[Hawkins]

OK, so I'm an atheist, and a recovering Christian. I give no credence to the idea of a personal God; I do not think that there is an actual entity which occupies the seat of omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, etc. However, I use that imaginary entity as a yardstick for self-evaluation quite frequently (in the way that those "What Would Jesus Do?" people look at their wrist-bracelet for inspiration ;) )

So what is wrong with that? Why must I actually believe?

The Bible says that humans can have different kinds of faith, but only one kind of faith can save. Christianity is to address the salvation issue, that is, how your soul will be saved by God after your physical death.

So the core question is, do you have a soul? How your religion helps about it?

 

[RND]

OK, so I'm an atheist, and a recovering Christian.

A seeker in other words.

I give no credence to the idea of a personal God; I do not think that there is an actual entity which occupies the seat of omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, etc.

Sounds like a 'free choice' to me. Pascals Wager.

However, I use that imaginary entity as a yardstick for self-evaluation quite frequently (in the way that those "What Would Jesus Do?" people look at their wrist-bracelet for inspiration ;) )

Interesting. How do you know what the "imaginary entity's" yardstick is?

So what is wrong with that?

Only you could answer that question.

Why must I actually believe?

You don't and that's the beauty of 'free choice'.

 

[coelacanth]

Pascal was a smart man, I doubt he was serious about the "wager". He must have realized that true belief is not a simple choice that can be made. I could swear on a stack of Bibles that I believe, go to Church every Sunday and never sin, but if I don't give cognitive assent to the idea as being true, I just don't.

To clarify my question, why would a perfect God insist on belief for salvation? Surely not to glorify his ego? It seems a rather unimportant and arbitrary criterion to me, and a demand that at a particular point in a life otherwise filled with reason, that we abandon reason at a prescribed point.

 

[coelacanth]

Interesting. How do you know what the "imaginary entity's" yardstick is?

Meditation on what true perfection is, discussion with others, and thoughtful reading lead me to the best answer I can attain.

 

[RND]

Pascal was a smart man, I doubt he was serious about the "wager".

How would you know?

He must have realized that true belief is not a simple choice that can be made.

Why isn't it simple?

I could swear on a stack of Bibles that I believe, go to Church every Sunday and never sin, but if I don't give cognitive assent to the idea as being true, I just don't.

Fortunately swearing on a stack of Bibles, going to church every Sunday (or Saturday in my case) and trying not to sin have nothing to do with faith and belief.

To clarify my question, why would a perfect God insist on belief for salvation? Surely not to glorify his ego? It seems a rather unimportant and arbitrary criterion to me, and a demand that at a particular point in a life otherwise filled with reason, that we abandon reason at a prescribed point.

God makes no such requirements other than having faith (belief) in Him.

 

[RND]

Meditation on what true perfection is,

What's the standard of "true perfection"?

discussion with others,

Regarding.....

and thoughtful reading lead me to the best answer I can attain.

Thoughtful reading of what? Marvel comics? Reader's Digest? Oprah's magazine?

 

[coelacanth]

Pascal was a smart man, I doubt he was serious about the "wager".

How would you know?

The argument from inconsistent revelations; you may wager on the wrong God existing. Thousands of mutually inconsistent deities have been postulated. Then there is the assumption that God rewards belief over an honest seeker whose conclusion is not belief in him.

He must have realized that true belief is not a simple choice that can be made.

Why isn't it simple?

It's not simple because beliefs cannot be chosen so frivolously. If I set up the same set of premises, only to persuade you that the computer you are using is really an elephant, rather than to persuade you to believe in God, you couldn't just "choose" to believe it. You could recognize that you would like to believe it because of the rewards you stand to gain, but true belief would not likely follow. As Dawkins calls it, it is "cowardly bet-hedging"

To clarify my question, why would a perfect God insist on belief for salvation? Surely not to glorify his ego? It seems a rather unimportant and arbitrary criterion to me, and a demand that at a particular point in a life otherwise filled with reason, that we abandon reason at a prescribed point.

God makes no such requirements other than having faith (belief) in Him.

Exactly.

 

[coelacanth]

To answer your second post: Discussing and reading about ethics, philosophy, etc. There exists no embodiment of perfection, but rather it exists as an ideal.

 

[azlan88]

If your original questions still stand, Coelacanth, I would like to answer them for you.
God demands faith, or trust, because it's the only standard set by God that mankind is able to meet. God laid down the laws of Moses to set His standard for goodness, thus revealing truth to a lost and confused world. Knowing that a fallen humanity has failed to obey the law, God started the second phase, which was to meet those standards on our behalf and then dying on the cross. So faith is not just a belief in the phenomina of Jesus' death and ressurection, but the signing of a legal contract that states, "I "name" hereby accept your sacrifice for me."

Upon the signing of this contract, or the act of faith, believers are sealed in the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of their salvation until the redemption of the purchased possession. But that's not all. The Holy Spirit also give believers a new life. He changes people from the inside out, softens their hearts, and sets their minds on the things of God, so Christianity not only is about redeeming mankind, important as that is, but it's also about living a fuller life.

As far as sending people to Hell for lack of faith is concerned, this is justified because some men reject God entirely, retaining their state of corruption. Now it is a mistake to assume that Hell is a torture chamber. It is only a miserable place because, before being cast into the pit, the damned realize that God offered them a free ride to Heaven and they rejected it, thus separating them from Christ who encompasses all love and meaning. So Hell doesn't make itself miserable. People make it a miserable place when they realize that they have built a permanent wall between themselves and the God of love.
I hope that these answers were sufficient for you and enriched your knowledge of God. If not, I would do what I can to be more clarifying or consistent.