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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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WHY did God allow the Jews to suffer the Holocaust?
- Thread starter John Zain
- Start date
The question for the most part is no different than asking why did God allow evil. I believe the holocaust however was prophesied in the book of Revelations, where scripture says that Satan seeing he had been cast down to earth was wroth and sought to persecute the woman have gave birth to the Christ (Israel) and also those who have the testimony of the Christ. We therefore see the destruction of the nation Israel, the inquisition, the holocaust etc... I believe the flood that comes out of the mouth of the dragon are lies that cause those who are decieved to hate true Christians and Jews, and many of these who are deceived actually think they are being christian or doing good in the world.
gr8fulbeliever
Member
This is a mostly futile exercise, but I will attempt to explain my own thoughts. In order to answer the question, we must first establish that God is sovereign and over all things. To assume that He allowed the Holocaust is to assume that He had the power to prevent it and chose not to. We must also assume that God sees and knows all things past, present, and future. If we can agree that God is sovereign and omniscient, then we have sufficient common ground to have this discussion.
The core question is why did God create man, knowing that man would choose to reject Him? Long before God created man, He knew that the ultimate cost of doing so would be that man would reject Him and He would have to send His Son to die for our sins. He knew about the flood, the Holocaust, and the tribulation, all before He ever created us. So if we understand why God created us, then we can begin to understand why He "allows" evil (I use quotations because I believe that God not only allows suffering, but ordains it, but that is a different discussion).
A cursory search of the phrase "for the glory of his Name" will quickly reveal that God is always working and acting "for the glory of his Name." So God created man "for the glory of his Name" and God allows/ordains suffering "for the glory of his Name."
The question then must be asked, "How does the suffering of God's people increase the glory of his Name?" This is a bit more difficult to answer. Going back to the creation of man, we know that God saw all that would happen long before He created us. In Ephesians 1:4-6, Paul tells us: "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace." Furthermore, we know that the Church has been set apart to be Christ's bride. All of this was known before the foundation of the world. So God set apart a bride for his Son, and he knew who that bride would be before the foundation of the world. So when God created the heavens and the earth, he did so looking forward to the second coming of Christ when He would return for his bride, the Church. So the story of the creation, the fall, the coming of Christ, and his return, is ultimately the story of Christ and his bride, the Church. It is a love story, and all that God has done since the creation has been for the purpose of setting apart that Bride, "to the praise of his glorious grace."
The core question is why did God create man, knowing that man would choose to reject Him? Long before God created man, He knew that the ultimate cost of doing so would be that man would reject Him and He would have to send His Son to die for our sins. He knew about the flood, the Holocaust, and the tribulation, all before He ever created us. So if we understand why God created us, then we can begin to understand why He "allows" evil (I use quotations because I believe that God not only allows suffering, but ordains it, but that is a different discussion).
A cursory search of the phrase "for the glory of his Name" will quickly reveal that God is always working and acting "for the glory of his Name." So God created man "for the glory of his Name" and God allows/ordains suffering "for the glory of his Name."
The question then must be asked, "How does the suffering of God's people increase the glory of his Name?" This is a bit more difficult to answer. Going back to the creation of man, we know that God saw all that would happen long before He created us. In Ephesians 1:4-6, Paul tells us: "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace." Furthermore, we know that the Church has been set apart to be Christ's bride. All of this was known before the foundation of the world. So God set apart a bride for his Son, and he knew who that bride would be before the foundation of the world. So when God created the heavens and the earth, he did so looking forward to the second coming of Christ when He would return for his bride, the Church. So the story of the creation, the fall, the coming of Christ, and his return, is ultimately the story of Christ and his bride, the Church. It is a love story, and all that God has done since the creation has been for the purpose of setting apart that Bride, "to the praise of his glorious grace."
DarkHorseRising
Member
God didn't allow it at all, this question comes across as quite antisemitic. God didn't want it to happen nor did He lead the people committing this horror to do so. Do you have any evidence at all to the contrary?
God is God He could have stopped the holocaust as He could stop hunger. I simply accept He knows better then i do.. This planet belongs to Him.... To question why is not questing God but, to try and understand. I do hope that is the some what close to the OP.
I do not understand the question to be antisemitic. The complete ugliness of the holocaust is antisemitic and beyond. The holocaust showed man without God....
I do not understand the question to be antisemitic. The complete ugliness of the holocaust is antisemitic and beyond. The holocaust showed man without God....
Adullam
Member
Agreed! The holocaust as with any other atrocity (The Rwandan genocide comes to mind) shows what man does when not reconciled to God. Should God then attenuate the acts of rebellious men so that they continue to live for themselves?
DarkHorseRising
Member
That's not really fair... Germany allowed the holocaust to happen by giving power to Hitler and his Nazi party. The rest of the world paid a pretty heavy price to stop them and end it.
Not fair? It was no secret what was happening in '38. 30 or so nations met at the Evian Conference and the outcome of that was they decided to close the doors on the vast majority of Jewish refugees. Thereby condeming millions of them to death.
A good portion of the world closed their eyes to the what Hitler and others were doing..... Sorta the "not in my back" yard mentality' .. Communication was not what it is today but the word got out and the world did nothing for way to long..We share in the guilt by doing nothing....
Today the USA is "in bed" with China, for one, and we do nothing to stop the death that goes on there...
Adullam, yup Rwanda comes to mind..... to me its like the neighbour beating his child while i close the window blinds..
Kumi The timing in history i would have to look up thanks for putting it here.
I understand there is a difference between what a person would do and what governments do.
Today the USA is "in bed" with China, for one, and we do nothing to stop the death that goes on there...
Adullam, yup Rwanda comes to mind..... to me its like the neighbour beating his child while i close the window blinds..
Kumi The timing in history i would have to look up thanks for putting it here.
I understand there is a difference between what a person would do and what governments do.
DarkHorseRising
Member
For every Chamberlain, there was a Churchill.
John Zain
Member
Okay, thanks for your responses ... I enjoyed reading them.
Now ... please believe me when I say ...
I have had a LOT of experience asking this question ... and getting answers to it!
And again, please believe me when I say: 99.9% have missed it, so don't feel too bad.
The answer cometh henceforth, worthwith, and etc. ... in the next post ...
Gee, I can't wait ...
John Zain
Member
I must be honest ... this is the short summarized version ... enjoy!
”There is absolutely no rationalistic explanation for the Holocaust except for the fact
that it was a Divine decree … why it happened is above human comprehension –
but it is definitely not because of punishment for sin.”
From: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/...e-Holocaust.htm (a Jewish website)
This is the prevailing Jewish attitude, due to total ignorance or denial of the simple truth.
The truth of the situation is explained from Old Testament Scriptures below:
Through one man (Adam) came the sin nature, and it was passed on
“… for there is no one who does not sin …” (2 Chronicles 6:36).
“I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” (David, Psalm 51:5).
“… all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags (women’s menstral cloths!)” (Isaiah 64:6).
“… for behold, each one follows the dictates of his own evil heart ...” (Jeremiah 16:12).
Jesus told His disciples that they were evil: “If you then, being evil …” (Luke 11:13).
Does a totally Holy God want evil sinful souls to be with Him in Heaven for all of eternity?
The penalty for sin is separation from God
“But your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face
from you, so that He will not hear.” (Isaiah 59:2).
“For you have hidden Your face from us, and have consumed us because of our iniquities.”
(Isaiah 64:7).
Enter the beginning of God’s solution to man’s problem
“The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above
all the peoples on the face of the earth … Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God,
the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations
with those who love Him and keep His commandments” (Deuteronomy 7:6-9).
“Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant,
then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people …” (Exodus 19:5).
Their covenant with God was conditional, and would also affect their descendants.
God gave them His Law to follow, and gave them a critical choice
This began with The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17).
And God promised to bless them: “… if you obey the voice of the Lord your God,
to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in the Book of the Law
… I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you
life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life (by obeying),
that both you and your descendants may live” (Deuteronomy 30:10-19).
Their covenant with God was conditional, and would also affect their descendants.
They repeatedly broke their covenant with God, who warned of the dire consequences
“… and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.
Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them,
and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and
troubles shall befall them … I will heap disasters on them …” (Deuteronomy 31:16--32:23).
Check out some of the gruesome details here: Ezekiel 5:5-17, Ezekiel 20:5-9.
“Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you …
because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His statutes
and His commandments ... And they (the curses) shall be upon you for a sign and
a wonder, and on your descendents forever.” (Deuteronomy 28:45-46).
Moses prophesied: “For I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt
… And evil will befall you in the latter days …” (Deuteronomy 31:29).
Their covenant with God was conditional, and would also affect their descendants.
God left them in their original state of spiritual blindness/deafness
“Now Moses called all of Israel and said to them: ‘You have seen all that the Lord
did before your eyes … Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive
and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.’ ” (Deuteronomy 29:3-4).
“And He said, ‘Go, and tell this people: Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
keep on seeing, but do not perceive. Make the heart of this people dull,
and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes ...” (Isaiah 6:9-10).
Sin >> spiritual death >> separation from God >> spiritual blindness/deafness
God dispersed them throughout the world
“Then the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other”
(Deuteronomy 28:64).
“… when I scatter them among the nations and disperse them throughout the countries.”
(Ezekiel 12:15).
God promised a new, and better, and more personal covenant
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant
… not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers (Israel & Judah)
… I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God,
and they shall be My people … for they shall all know Me … For I will forgive their iniquity,
and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:31-34).
“For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land (1948) ... I will (future) give you a new heart and put a new spirit
within you … I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and
you will keep My judgments and do them … you shall be My people, and I will be your God.”
(Ezekiel 36:24-28).
This has begun … with the Messianic Jews (in Israel and elsewhere).
The New Testament confirms the truths of the Old Testament
For example:
Matthew 13:13-15 … Jesus is referring to Isaiah 6:9-10
John 12:37-40 … John (v.40) is referring to Isaiah 6:9-10
Romans 11:7-25 … Paul is referring to Isaiah 29:10, Deuteronomy 29:3-4, Psalm 69:22-23
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Sinthesis
Member
Unfortunately you've missed it as well. Don't be an anti-Semite. The Holocaust was not about the victims, for Jews were only the dominate group of many that were targeted. The Holocaust was allowed in order to shame us. It exposed to the world how easily the secular Christian societies of the West could and do bend when confronted by evil. While expected of pagans, it is hubris to think we are somehow immune to dehumanizing others for any and every reason. The Holocaust was allowed to make us aware of the ultimate consequences to which our own prejudices aspire.
John Zain
Member
Sin, please believe me when I say: 99.9% have missed it, so don't feel too bad.
former atheist
Member
God has allowed evil in the world because it serves a few purposes that we as a human race can easily identify in the Bible, which is God’s word, and obviously it probably serves purposes that we probably do not understand!
Anyway, one such purpose of Gods inaction to control or smite evil or destroy evil in the world utterly before it happens that we humans choose to do evil; is possibly due to our created nature. You see, God reveals to us in his Word that we were created with free will. Free will allows us the choice to do or not to do what is Gods will and God knew this upon creating us! We know this because God reveals his great knowledge of all things to us in his word.
Therefore, even though God knows that we would be capable of sin (not doing Gods will), God said, that we (humanity) as a creation were good, and I fully agree with God; that giving humanity free will to be more like God our father is a good thing. It is possibly the most we will ever be like God.
However, we as individuals and as a creation, no children of God, have not used our free will for what is right and what is good and to do well by Gods will. Yet God has not taken that which is good away from us so that we would be incapable of doing evil. So there is sort of a conflict going on now isn’t there?
Does God take away what is good to prevent what might bring about sin? Or, does God allow what is good to remain and find another way to defeat what might allow sin? Clearly, if you know anything about Christianity, God seems to have chosen to allow us our Free will and freedom, and he clearly has found a justified way to remove sin (evil) from us.
So why did God allow evil in the world? I believe it was because God wanted us to have free will in order to be more like him and because God know ultimately that the issue of Sin and evil could and would be resolved without taking away what God found to be first good about us as his creation/children. And I personally love God so very much for that freedom even if at times I’d rather God himself strip it away to prevent some of the horrific things we have or would do with our free will or have done unto us by our own brothers and sisters.
We have total freedom to do our own will upon each other, even God. BUT… there will be a day that we will have to account for our use of our freedom, and may we each find the mercy and grace of God through Jesus Christ so that we may someday be greater children of God through his own glory and holy statutes.
Anyway, one such purpose of Gods inaction to control or smite evil or destroy evil in the world utterly before it happens that we humans choose to do evil; is possibly due to our created nature. You see, God reveals to us in his Word that we were created with free will. Free will allows us the choice to do or not to do what is Gods will and God knew this upon creating us! We know this because God reveals his great knowledge of all things to us in his word.
Therefore, even though God knows that we would be capable of sin (not doing Gods will), God said, that we (humanity) as a creation were good, and I fully agree with God; that giving humanity free will to be more like God our father is a good thing. It is possibly the most we will ever be like God.
However, we as individuals and as a creation, no children of God, have not used our free will for what is right and what is good and to do well by Gods will. Yet God has not taken that which is good away from us so that we would be incapable of doing evil. So there is sort of a conflict going on now isn’t there?
Does God take away what is good to prevent what might bring about sin? Or, does God allow what is good to remain and find another way to defeat what might allow sin? Clearly, if you know anything about Christianity, God seems to have chosen to allow us our Free will and freedom, and he clearly has found a justified way to remove sin (evil) from us.
So why did God allow evil in the world? I believe it was because God wanted us to have free will in order to be more like him and because God know ultimately that the issue of Sin and evil could and would be resolved without taking away what God found to be first good about us as his creation/children. And I personally love God so very much for that freedom even if at times I’d rather God himself strip it away to prevent some of the horrific things we have or would do with our free will or have done unto us by our own brothers and sisters.
We have total freedom to do our own will upon each other, even God. BUT… there will be a day that we will have to account for our use of our freedom, and may we each find the mercy and grace of God through Jesus Christ so that we may someday be greater children of God through his own glory and holy statutes.
handy
Member
That's what I was thinking too, Reba.
Between 80,000 to 100,000 mentally and/or physically disabled people were killed during the holocaust... they were every bit as targeted as the Jews.
What "sin" did they commit?
Over 5,000 children who were mentally and/or physically disabled were killed as well... what was their sin?
Another 300,000 were forcibly sterilized.
In one way I do agree that it was sin that caused the holocaust... but not the sin of the Jews, the blacks or the handicapped.
In 1939 54% of Germans considered themselves Protestant and 40% considered themselves Catholic. That's 94% of the population claiming to be Christian.
If there be any sin associated with the holocaust, it would be those "Christians" who filled the churches on Sunday, and went out to the slave camps, death camps and killing fields on Monday.
I'm not saying the entire 94% were evil anti-Christians... I do know that many Christians put themselves and their loved ones in grave danger doing what they could to help the victims... but, they were in the minority.