Why did god create such a messed up world?

[charliecaine]

Why did god create such a messed up world, full of pain and suffering, bearing in mind he started from scratch and could have made humans much nicer? Why did the create the balance where 50% of good acts must be balanced by 50% of bad acts? Why does he also punish people for wrongdoings that he makes them do?

Thanks a lot,

Charlie

 

[crux]

So I'll share my view but let me suggest that I think you have some non-biblical misconceptions about God. For example:

Why did the create the balance where 50% of good acts must be balanced by 50% of bad acts

I believe that's an egyptian / scales of justice concept, not a Christian concept. God is pass/fail and redemption from failure only occurs through his proscribed means, the sacrifice of purity to cover the sins. Jesus being the ultimate attonement for humanitiy's failure.

But why allow failure at all do you ask? Why should humanity be allowed to question God at all? Why should humanity be allowed to disobey him?

I have to ask, would humanity not be slaves if there was no possibility for them to think for themselves, to act for themselves? If you were never allowed to question your parents, or political leaders, would you not be a slave? And I ask, can any real love relationship for the sources of law and judgement exist in that relation ship? I think not.

In my view, when we start with Adam there is only ONE law, the law of the tree. That tree is there to allow the possibility of something other than service to God. It has negative consequences to be sure, but Adam is free to leave God if he does not wish to obey him in everything. That freedom allowed rebellion, and that original sin is carried in the heart of every human down to this day. But we are free to walk miserable, alone, in pain. We chose that freedom, we chose this pain over the "nicer" existence you long for in the presence of God. All the "messed up" features of the world are not created by God, but by ourselves in our rejection of his purity and life. He has allowed this so that we may know the difference, so that we may know that we need his wisdom, his guidance, and his healing and life, for if we had never left the garden we would have remained ignorant to this and would never have been able to appreciate a relationship to him the way we can now.

Now we can understand what he his, and our love for him and longing for his peace is honest, and real in a way it couldn't be when we didn't know any better. It can be a true love, and a true relationship.

Now those who've lost sight of God, lost sight of the eternal focus only on this present misery as though it were everything, as though it mattered most. In that circumstance it's easy to lose perspective, and even blame God for not making failure impossible. But what would you be if you were never allowed to understand things for yourself, never allowed to do anything that might lead to failure? You would be incomplete. So it is with the lessons we learn in our exile, and like the prodigal son, greater is our joy in a father that welcomes us back with richness and blessings if we will return to him with our whole heart.

God Bless.

 

[Ret]

charliecane and crux...let me say WELCOME to CF.net!

Talking, discussing, understanding the WORD of TRUTH is much needed in the world of today!

As charlie started the thread with questions, let me pose a thought...

As a child I grew up surrounded by many lakes in Florida. It was really puzzling why and how a beautiful white lily could grow in such murky, black water. Not only are many of the natural lakes of Florida, murky and black but they also contain germs and pesticide poisons that end up in the lakes from spraying the orange trees....still the white lily survives, a testimony to the one who created it.

Similar to the statements of crux, yes, the truth of God's mercy is never more beautiful than when it shows it's brilliance among the ills and perils of a sinful world.

Thank God...there will be an end to all this 'messed up world', in the day of God's choosing!

May God Bless you both!...Ret

 

[JudaicChristian]

God did not create a messed up world. God gave man free will, and it is men who mess up the world.

 

[AAA]

God did not create a messed up world. God gave man free will, and it is men who mess up the world.

Why does our free will necessarily lead to evil and pointless suffering?

I mean, surely you believe that you will have free will in heaven (ie. heaven is not full of zombies), yet you also believe that there will be no evil or pointless suffering in heaven, so why do you believe that free will on earth must necessarily lead to evil, since that's not always the case (as in heaven)?

 

[RND]

The mystery of iniquity!

Why did god create such a messed up world, full of pain and suffering, bearing in mind he started from scratch and could have made humans much nicer?

Charlie, God didn't create a messed up world - when He created all things He saw everything as "very good." In keeping with His character everything He made was perfect. It was the disobedience of man coupled with man's desire to disobey the loving instructions and warning of God that led to sin.

Why did the create the balance where 50% of good acts must be balanced by 50% of bad acts?

God created no such scenario.

Why does he also punish people for wrongdoings that he makes them do?

Unfortunately, in order to offer His perfect love to people God must allow sin and the obvious results of sin to take there course. God does not force anyone to love Him. Satan's charge against God was that God was unfair and could not be trusted. When Satan questioned God's goodness in the garden he caused doubt about God to become rampant with man - just as he had done in heaven.

God has given us ample warnings in His word as to what the effects of disobeying His law and commandments would be. By allowing the effects of sin to run the course that Satan designed God is accused of "causing sin." Yet even while we were in open rebellion to God and His law Christ died for us - to reconcile man back to God.

 

[mondar]

God did not create a messed up world. God gave man free will, and it is men who mess up the world.

Why does our free will necessarily lead to evil and pointless suffering?

I mean, surely you believe that you will have free will in heaven (ie. heaven is not full of zombies), yet you also believe that there will be no evil or pointless suffering in heaven, so why do you believe that free will on earth must necessarily lead to evil, since that's not always the case (as in heaven)?

AAA, interesting thought.

 

[RND]

Why does our free will necessarily lead to evil and pointless suffering?

Think of our sin as a rock being thrown into a still pond and the ripples represent the effects of sin.

I mean, surely you believe that you will have free will in heaven (ie. heaven is not full of zombies), yet you also believe that there will be no evil or pointless suffering in heaven, so why do you believe that free will on earth must necessarily lead to evil, since that's not always the case (as in heaven)?

Because some men would be happy simply rejecting the truth of sin and it's effects on others. Thus they do not feel the need to heed the caring reminders that God gives regarding the effects of sin. God told Cain that if he obeyed he would do well and if he didn't sin was waiting for him at his door. The desire to sin, from knowing the effects of sin, will not happen a second time.

True love results in obedience out of gratitude and respect. God is looking for true love and obedience. Therefore the only ones in heaven will be those that hate sin. They forever will have the nail scared hands of Christ to remind them of the effects of sin.

 

[AAA]

The desire to sin, from knowing the effects of sin, will not happen a second time.

That's demonstrably false. Everybody who has perceived the effects of their sin, and yet desired that sin and/or even committed that sin again, knows that is false.

...some men would be happy simply rejecting the truth of sin and it's effects on others. Thus they do not feel the need to heed the caring reminders that God gives regarding the effects of sin.

Its important to realize that nobody needs to believe in god, nor receive any caring reminders from god, to be aware of the negative effects of sin. One only needs the type of sophisticated nervous system that humans (and perhaps higher order animals?) have evolved. Thus, a shark that rapes a female (which they do) is not guilty of a sin, but a human who rapes a female (or male for that matter) is.

Therefore the only ones in heaven will be those that hate sin. They forever will have the nail scared hands of Christ to remind them of the effects of sin.

I don't see how you are addressing the contradiction posed by the apparently mandatory association of free will and evil/suffering on earth and the lack of this association in heaven. The latter suggests that free will cannot be the explanation for evil/suffering: god himself must be the explanation for evil/suffering, and why think otherwise given Isiaah 45:7?

 

[RND]

That's demonstrably false. Everybody who has perceived the effects of their sin, and yet desired that sin and/or even committed that sin again, knows that is false.

I was referring to sin in the new heavens and new earth. Sorry for not clarifying that, I thought everyone would know I was simply paraphrasing scripture.

Nah 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Its important to realize that nobody needs to believe in god, nor receive any caring reminders from god, to be aware of the negative effects of sin.

In order to correct the mistaken understanding of sin and it's effects there is only the word of God to teach people.

One only needs the type of sophisticated nervous system that humans (and perhaps higher order animals?) have evolved. Thus, a shark that rapes a female (which they do) is not guilty of a sin, but a human who rapes a female (or male for that matter) is.

Well, in that sharks have no ability to reason and to ponder the word of God makes that kind of a fairly inane argument.

However, it is worth noting that animals can in fact display some level of sympathy towards their own kind. Experiments involving food and rats where one rat would be shocked if the rat in the next cage took food proved that the rat would cease eating so as not to shock the other rat.

This does not prove that rats can know the ten commandments or have them ingraved on the heart.

I don't see how you are addressing the contradiction posed by the apparently mandatory association of free will and evil/suffering on earth and the lack of this association in heaven.

I'm sorry you missed it but there is no contradiction. Sin effects everyone is some manner.

The latter suggests that free will cannot be the explanation for evil/suffering: god himself must be the explanation for evil/suffering, and why think otherwise given Isiaah 45:7?

Everyone who chooses not to take responsibility for their actions can easily blame God and say it is all His fault. The entire record of the word of God proves the actual story to be considerably different.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

It is easy to take one or two verses and equate to them a meaning outside the consistent record of the written word. This verse is a perfect example because it involves specific prophecies that Cyrus king of Medio-Persia would perform against Babylon, thus freeing Jacob from captivity.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Why did god create such a messed up world, full of pain and suffering, bearing in mind he started from scratch and could have made humans much nicer? Why did the create the balance where 50% of good acts must be balanced by 50% of bad acts? Why does he also punish people for wrongdoings that he makes them do?

Thanks a lot,

Charlie

Romans 8

 

[toddm]

Why does our free will necessarily lead to evil and pointless suffering?

It doesn't, but this would be like saying I had a son who grew up and went out doing vile things and then someone turned around and asked me, "why did you conceive such a wicked child?"

I mean, surely you believe that you will have free will in heaven (ie. heaven is not full of zombies), yet you also believe that there will be no evil or pointless suffering in heaven, so why do you believe that free will on earth must necessarily lead to evil, since that's not always the case (as in heaven)?

Free will is often misunderstood. We are not free to do anything we want. We operate in the realm of our nature, and our "free choices" are based on those desires. As sinful creatures, our free choices will always be to choose that which our sinful nature desires. As Christians, we are given a new nature that now desires godly things. When we are in heaven, the sinful nature is no more and all that remains is the nature that desires to worship and please God. Prior to a person becoming a Christian, there is only one nature - the sinful. As a Christian, there are now 2 (spirit & flesh) - Paul demonstrates this in Romans 7. Upon dying, we are back to just one nature (the spirit).