Why did the Geneva Bible start using the word "pastors" in Ephesians 4:11?

[carlos123]

Hi Everyone,

I was looking around at the various forums and wasn't sure where to post this so, at the risk of posting in the wrong forum, I went ahead and posted this here. Please let me know if there was a better, more appropriate forum where this should have been posted.

Anyway....I am doing some study, prayer, and research on the modern pastoral role and where it came from (since in truth I do not see this role in the New Testament) and was wondering if anyone here might be interested in doing some historical research with me?

Pertaining to WHY the Geneva Bible began to use the Latin word "Pastors" instead of sticking to what had been used up to then...the word "shepherds" (or a derivative of this word).

The Geneva Bible was the first English bible to start using the Latin word "Pastors" in Ephesians 4:11. The New Testament was published in 1557 followed afterwards by the entire bible in 1560.

All other English bibles, prior to the Geneva, rendered the underlying Greek word in Ephesians 4:11 as a derivative of the word we know as "shepherds".

The Wycliffe Bible - shepherdis
The Coverdale Bible - shepherdes
William Tyndale New Testament - Sheperdes
The Great Bible - Shepherdes
Matthew Bible - sheperdes

The Geneva Bible also used the Latin word "Pastors" (either in the singular or plural) in 9 other verses in Jeremiah.

Jeremiah
2:8
3:15
6:3
10:21
12:10
17:16
22:22
23:1
23:2

8 of the 9 verses in Jeremiah can be tied definitively to a leadership role. 1 may be but not definitively so.
It seems clear overall that the word "Pastors" began to be used because it was seen to be a word that more clearly denoted church leadership. But WHY that change. WHY that word?

That is what I am interested in discussing.

Please stick to the topic of this thread if you at all interested in discussing this! I don't want to get off on a tangent and start discussing the modern day pastoral role per se unless it directly ties into the discussion of WHY the Geneva began to use the word "Pastors".

A lot of people take personal offense to the slightest hint that the modern day pastoral role is unbiblical and I have found it utterly useless to discuss how such a role might be off with such persons so if we can stick to the historical research angle of this topic that would be great.

Thanks.

Carlos

 

[Deborah13]

"The Geneva Bible itself retains over 90% of William Tyndale's original English translation."
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

Latin= parochus
You can trace it back from there. I'll add that the English language includes many words that come from Latin, especially medical terms. The same word in middle-French is pastour, who is a sheppard. Our word pasture is probably derived from the same Latin word.
It could be that the translators were trying to keep a distinction between the Greek word for pastor in Eph 4:11 and the word for elder in 1Peter 5:1 because the elders are also called to be sheppards of the flock.

 

[carlos123]

"The Geneva Bible itself retains over 90% of William Tyndale's original English translation."
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

That is undoubtedly true Deborah. But Tyndale's translation rendered the underlying Greek (transliteration: poimēn,
Strong's G4166) as "Sheperdes". So why did the Geneva not carry over the English word that Tyndale had used?

It could be that the translators were trying to keep a distinction between the Greek word for pastor in Eph 4:11 and the word for elder in 1Peter 5:1 because the elders are also called to be sheppards of the flock.

That's an interesting possibility in that those called Elders (transliterated: presbyteros, Strong's G4245) in 1 Peter 5:1 were said to likewise be involved in shepherding the flock (see 1 Peter 5:2-4).

John Calvin, who was very influential over the congregation of Christians at Geneva and who was thus likely very influential over the creation of the Geneva Bible, definitely thought that Elders and Pastors were two different roles within the church. So perhaps the word "Pastors" was indeed chosen to be used in Ephesians 4:11 to more clearly distinguish that role (whatever that role was) from that of Elders (who also had a shepherding type of oversight over the flock).

Interesting.

I'll have to think about that.

Do you know of any source material that might support your view Deborah?

If your view is correct Deborah I think that is very significant in that the Geneva Bible would then be responsible for inserting a view, that I consider completely unscriptural, into the text. That there is a role of Pastors and a role of Elders and that the two represent two different positions within church life when in fact, scripturally, there is no such distinction (we can discuss that if you or anyone else might like to where I need to support my view of such).

Carlos

 

[turnorburn]

Are you thinking about becoming a Pastor?

tob

 

[reba]

Some of the answer might be in understanding the use of the word, pastor, a few hundred years ago... Yet a rose by any other name is still a rose

 

[Free]

Some of the answer might be in understanding the use of the word, pastor, a few hundred years ago... Yet a rose by any other name is still a rose

If pastor=shepherd, then I'm not sure what the issue is.

 

[reba]

:yes

 

[turnorburn]

Some of the answer might be in understanding the use of the word, pastor, a few hundred years ago... Yet a rose by any other name is still a rose

Agreed, I've never had reason to see any conflict here?

tob

 

[Deborah13]

If your view is correct Deborah I think that is very significant in that the Geneva Bible would then be responsible for inserting a view, that I consider completely unscriptural, into the text.

Not to long ago we had a thread about pastor's salaries and their workload. So I had been looking at the same things that you have. David Reagan wrote an article about it, which I found today when getting the site link that I posted.

John Calvin, who was very influential over the congregation of Christians at Geneva and who was thus likely very influential over the creation of the Geneva Bible, definitely thought that Elders and Pastors were two different roles within the church.

Yesterday I was reading a history of Calvin and his gaining of influence in Geneva. Geneva was set up like theocracy, there was very little separation between church and government. Calvin over time became almost thee man of Geneva, both in the political and church governing. Geneva was also a refuge city for those who were fleeing the Church at Rome, which is interesting. But I haven't looked at the dates for the Geneva Bible and the dates when Calvin had such a strong influence.

 

[turnorburn]

"Geneva was also a refuge city for those who were fleeing the Church at Rome, which is interesting"

Which is where the conflict may have arisen?

tob

 

[carlos123]

Hi tob,

Not at all. My gifting does not lie in shepherding others to maturity in Christ so I have no interest in doing that though I absolutely recognize the value of such a gift. However as of late I have been greatly burdened with a growing realization that the role of oversight in modern day church practice has become a great hindrance to the work of the Holy Spirit within the church in that the pastoral role has taken on an influence and position of prestige in church life that the Lord never meant it to have.

So my interest in this topic is centered around whether the introduction of the word "Pastors" into the Geneva Bible is a moment in time when the corruption of a clergy / laity view of body life actually made it into the text.

Mind you such a corruption did not occur through the Geneva Bible. Any such corruption began to permeate church life WAY before the Geneva Bible ever came out but the Geneva Bible IS the very first English bible that seems to have elevated the role of shepherding to a place of distinction as a POSITION rather than as a function tied to gifting.

I don't think anyone today would publicly embrace a clergy / laity distinction. I mean we are all said to be equally priests before God. That is presumably the Protestant theology at least.

But in practice the pastoral role has taken on clergy / laity distinctions I think and I am trying to uncover where that came from and how best to expose it as such.

Carlos

 

[Deborah13]

"Geneva was also a refuge city for those who were fleeing the Church at Rome, which is interesting"

Which is where the conflict may have arisen?

tob

Maybe, I thought about that.

 

[turnorburn]

Hi tob,

Not at all. My gifting does not lie in shepherding others to maturity in Christ so I have no interest in doing that though I absolutely recognize the value of such a gift. However as of late I have been greatly burdened with a growing realization that the role of oversight in modern day church practice has become a great hindrance to the work of the Holy Spirit within the church in that the pastoral role has taken on an influence and position of prestige in church life that the Lord never meant it to have.

So my interest in this topic is centered around whether the introduction of the word "Pastors" into the Geneva Bible is a moment in time when the corruption of a clergy / laity view of body life actually made it into the text.

Mind you such a corruption did not occur through the Geneva Bible. Any such corruption began to permeate church life WAY before the Geneva Bible ever came out but the Geneva Bible IS the very first English bible that seems to have elevated the role of shepherding to a place of distinction as a POSITION rather than as a function tied to gifting.

I don't think anyone today would publicly embrace a clergy / laity distinction. I mean we are all said to be equally priests before God. That is presumably the Protestant theology at least.

But in practice the pastoral role has taken on clergy / laity distinctions I think and I am trying to uncover where that came from and how best to expose it as such.

Carlos

Expose what, the Pastors i know work harder than any of the rest of their congregation, so i don't understand, expose what?

tob

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi Everyone,

I was looking around at the various forums and wasn't sure where to post this so, at the risk of posting in the wrong forum, I went ahead and posted this here. Please let me know if there was a better, more appropriate forum where this should have been posted.


Carlos

Pastor in Latin means cause to eat, set to grazing, as in a field. It was only used once in the KJV but the way Shepard is used, it means to tend sheep, or groups of people.

Alas for the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture Declareth Yahweh. Therefore, Thus, saith Yahweh God of Israel, Concerning the shepherds who are tending my people,—Ye have scattered my flock and have driven them away, and Nave not visited them,—Behold me! visiting upon you the wickedness of your doings Declareth Yahweh.
(Jer 23:1-2)

Isa_40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

It is the Pastor that feeds a group of folks and cares for them. Does not seem all the complicated.

Mike

 

[turnorburn]

You mention Protestant theology, this have anything to do with papal supremacy?

tob

 

[reba]

Dont go there or take it to PM turnorburn ...

 

[Free]

Hi tob,

Not at all. My gifting does not lie in shepherding others to maturity in Christ so I have no interest in doing that though I absolutely recognize the value of such a gift. However as of late I have been greatly burdened with a growing realization that the role of oversight in modern day church practice has become a great hindrance to the work of the Holy Spirit within the church in that the pastoral role has taken on an influence and position of prestige in church life that the Lord never meant it to have.

So my interest in this topic is centered around whether the introduction of the word "Pastors" into the Geneva Bible is a moment in time when the corruption of a clergy / laity view of body life actually made it into the text.

Mind you such a corruption did not occur through the Geneva Bible. Any such corruption began to permeate church life WAY before the Geneva Bible ever came out but the Geneva Bible IS the very first English bible that seems to have elevated the role of shepherding to a place of distinction as a POSITION rather than as a function tied to gifting.

I don't think anyone today would publicly embrace a clergy / laity distinction. I mean we are all said to be equally priests before God. That is presumably the Protestant theology at least.

But in practice the pastoral role has taken on clergy / laity distinctions I think and I am trying to uncover where that came from and how best to expose it as such.

Carlos

While we are all priests before God, the NT shows a hierarchical organization within the church. There certainly does seem to be a clergy/laity distinction.

 

[turnorburn]

Dont go there or take it to PM turnorburn ...

Oops'

tob

 

[Deborah13]

It is the Pastor that feeds a group of folks and cares for them. Does not seem all the complicated.

Peter calls the elders to sheppard also.
1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

 

[carlos123]

Expose what, the Pastors i know work harder than any of the rest of their congregation, so i don't understand, expose what?
tob

Hi tob.

I do want to stick to the topic of this thread which is WHY the word "Pastors" made it into the Geneva Bible if possible. Though some explanation of what I said might be relevant to that I think.

Incidentally my interest in this has absolutely not the slightest thing to do with wanting to discount the hard work Pastors do so I am not sure why you are even bringing that up.

Let me explain it this way if I might.

1 Corinthians 14:26 (HCSB) says this...

26 What then is the conclusion, brothers? Whenever you come together, each one has a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, another language, or an interpretation. All things must be done for edification.

If we assume (without a full discussion of what 1 Cor 14 is talking about it will remain an assumption on my part) that the above describes an open, participatory type of meeting and we further assume (again without a full discussion of the matter) that the lack of any mention in the entire book of 1 Corinthians of pastoral oversight to be significant...the I think it is safe to say that the present day format of our church practice where we generally file in (to a church building), sit, stand, sing, hear a sermon, sit and stand some more, sing a closing song and then file out on time and on cue is not what Paul had in mind when he instructed the Corinthian church on how their meetings were to be conducted.

Ephesians 4:11 lists more than just Pastors in the list of giftings. Yet the pastoral role today has become THE gift most visibly operating in the church as if the other gifts have completely ceased to be.

Something is wrong with the way we do church today tob.

In my reading of the scriptures Jesus is the Head (not the Pastor). He in turn leads us all through his Holy Spirit. We all represent the Lord Jesus as his body through a combination of gifts which express some aspect of his character. No ONE gift expresses Christ in such a way that none of the other gifts are needed. Likewise there should be freedom of expression for all the gifts. Nor should permission be sought to express what the Lord is prompting any member of the body to say through their respective gift.

Whether you agree with any of what I have said or not...I see a BIG, BIG difference between the view that Jesus is the Head and that he leads us through his Spirit to express his heart to the rest of the body through ANY ONE OF US and the view that seems prevalent today that the pastoral gift is allowed freedom of expression while the rest of us must generally sit, watch, listen, and learn.

Again...I want to stick to the topic of this thread. I am concerned that we are veering off into an all out discussion the modern day pastoral role and how it might be or might not be off scripturally. I do hope we can stick to a discussion of how and why the word "Pastor" made it into the Geneva Bible as that is my more immediate interest in discussing.

But I thought it might prove beneficial to say something in response to your question of what is that I am wanting to expose (or maybe draw attention to).

Carlos