Why did the Geneva Bible start using the word "pastors" in Ephesians 4:11?

[turnorburn]

Probably why folks get together for home bible studies.. what do you suggest?

tob

 

[carlos123]

While we are all priests before God, the NT shows a hierarchical organization within the church. There certainly does seem to be a clergy/laity distinction.

Hmm...I must admit I did not stop to think that someone might actually subscribe to the idea of a clergy / laity difference or distinction if you will in body life. My apologies Free for the assumption that no one would embrace such a view today.

While a discussion of that might prove of a great interest (at least to me) I prefer, if you don't mind, to stick to the topic which led me to start this thread which has to do with WHY the Geneva Bible started using the word "Pastor".

Admittedly I may never be able to arrive at a definitive answer though Rebe gave input that I had never heard before and which may be right on...that perhaps the Geneva Bible wanted to make a clearer distinction between Pastors and Elders.

That's the kind of input I am hoping to get.

Carlos

 

[reba]

Reba suggest this thread be moved to The Lounge... You are in a deep sleep when you wake you will in The Lounge

 

[carlos123]

Probably why folks get together for home bible studies.. what do you suggest?

tob

If you are asking that of me tob...I would love to do something like that. Regrettably I find it very, very difficult to find people where I live (i.e. San Diego) who might be interested in doing such. Most all persons of a Christian persuasion are tied to existing churches and don't much feel like getting into a study dealing with a topic that might go completely contrary to existing church practice.

Carlos

 

[turnorburn]

If you are asking that of me tob...I would love to do something like that. Regrettably I find it very, very difficult to find people where I live (i.e. San Diego) who might be interested in doing such. Most all persons of a Christian persuasion are tied to existing churches and don't much feel like getting into a study dealing with a topic that might go completely contrary to existing church practice.

Carlos

Pretty sure the devil doesn't care for the idea..

Bible study leader Michael Salman is sitting in jail today after his home was raided earlier this week by more than a dozen Phoenix, Ariz. police officers and city officials. His offense? The city says people aren't allowed to hold private Bible studies on their own property.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2012/07/...-study-in-home-his-wife-says-it-defies-logic/

tob

 

[carlos123]

Pretty sure the devil doesn't care for the idea..

Bible study leader Michael Salman is sitting in jail today after his home was raided earlier this week by more than a dozen Phoenix, Ariz. police officers and city officials. His offense? The city says people aren't allowed to hold private Bible studies on their own property.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2012/07/...-study-in-home-his-wife-says-it-defies-logic/

tob

Indeed. Terrible if you ask me.

Though it does not tie in directly to the idea of home bible studies...church as we know it today is a very controlled affair in my opinion. Most people of a Christian persuasion truly do act like sheep in that they follow wherever they are led by present day church practice.

Without critical review or careful and prayerful consideration of what we are doing as churches regarding our practice of church.

Christians need to start thinking for themselves without accepting the status quo as being all that the Lord meant for us to be.

I honestly believe that the Lord wants to express himself through the body as he once did (i.e. as described in 1 Cor 14) but that's not going to happen if we continue the modern practice of having Pastors control how a meeting of the church is conducted.

We need a new reformation I think or perhaps more appropriately to finish the one that was previously begun and to free the saints to express his heart as freely as they were meant to express it.

As it was in the days of the original and first Reformation so it will be today. Where those who rise up to question and wonder about present day practice, as to whether it is Scriptural or not, will be misunderstood and even persecuted by those who want to settle for the status quo as being good enough.

At least that has been my experience in even questioning present day practice though thankfully, the spirit on this forum seems to be a bit more Christian than I have experienced at times on other forums.

So I am hopeful that profitable discussion can continue.

Carlos

 

[Brother Mike]

Indeed. Terrible if you ask me.

Though it does not tie in directly to the idea of home bible studies...church as we know it today is a very controlled affair in my opinion. Most people of a Christian persuasion truly do act like sheep in that they follow wherever they are led by present day church practice.

Without critical review or careful and prayerful consideration of what we are doing as churches regarding our practice of church.

Christians need to start thinking for themselves without accepting the status quo as being all that the Lord meant for us to be.

I honestly believe that the Lord wants to express himself through the body as he once did (i.e. as described in 1 Cor 14) but that's not going to happen if we continue the modern practice of having Pastors control how a meeting of the church is conducted.

We need a new reformation I think or perhaps more appropriately to finish the one that was previously begun and to free the saints to express his heart as freely as they were meant to express it.

As it was in the days of the original and first Reformation so it will be today. Where those who rise up to question and wonder about present day practice, as to whether it is Scriptural or not, will be misunderstood and even persecuted by those who want to settle for the status quo as being good enough.

At least that has been my experience in even questioning present day practice though thankfully, the spirit on this forum seems to be a bit more Christian than I have experienced at times on other forums.

So I am hopeful that profitable discussion can continue.

Carlos

Reading through, I am not sure what your looking for here. I assume your posting based on your experience with certain church groups,.

We have offices that are speaking positions.
We have offices that make up the rest of the body and support. Stephen for example took care of feeding, and keeping everyone from fighting. We have those that work jobs, those that run business all to be in place to supply the whole body.

Elders? Paul would be considered an elder. An apostle who started many churches and through letters governed those he started. An elder could be a Pastor as mentioned by Deborah.

Pastors seem by OT scriptures and NT scriptures feed a group of people and instruct them. They visit them, they keep them together.
Apostles would be sent ones, they start works, the often have to act as Pastors for a time, set the standards and move on.

We have prophets and evangelist. Timothy a Bishop, and Paul called him a Deacon. Was more or less in charge or superintendent. Some believe he also was a Pastor.

But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
(2Ti 4:5)
Paul said despite that, do the work of an evangelist who go out and preach. Not full time as one called, but it would seem Paul is saying no matter the main office, we all need to do the work of Evangelist, to make full proof of our ministry.

We have the Prophet and Teacher. A Prophet would more than likely travel, and a teacher just teaches, not having their own flock.

We have all 5 Working together, we have those in charge like a superintendent, more I think in care of peoples needs and such. we have deacon's serving and helping the 5.

Paul though an Apostle did not trample or interfere with works he did not start, and encouraged others to build on the foundation he laid.

We have folks taking care of sheep.
Folks out preaching.
Folks out giving words of wisdom and knowledge from God to people
Folks that help teach.
Folks that take care of administrative things.
Folks out starting works for others to build on.

Sounds pretty simple if you don't add as you said modern thoughts to it.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

So I am hopeful that profitable discussion can continue.

I think I can say correctly that the translation of the Greek into pastor and presbytar was solely from the actual Greek. It wasn't because John Calvin thought they entirely were different. I have been reading his commentaries on Eph 4:11 and 1 Peter 5.
I Peter 5:1-4
"This imperious rigour, then, which ungodly pastors exercise over the Church, cannot be corrected, except their authority be restrained, so that they may rule in such a way as to afford an example of a godly life. 1 The elders By this name he designates pastors and all those who are appointed for the government of the Church. But they called them presbyters or elders for honor’s sake,.......2 Feed the flock of God We hence learn what the word presbyter imports, even that it includes the office of feeding.....
Taking the oversight, or, discharging the office of a bishop. Erasmus renders the words, “Taking care of it,” (curam illius agentes;) but as the Greek word is ἐπισκοποῦντες I doubt not but that Peter meant to set forth the office and title of the episcopate. We may learn also from other parts of Scripture that these two names, bishop and presbyter, are synonymous. He then shews how they were rightly to perform the pastoral office, though the word ἐπισκοπεῖν generally means to preside or to oversee....."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom45.iv.vi.i.html?scrBook=1Pet&scrCh=5&scrV=1#iv.vi.i-p1.1
Eph 4:11
"I partly agree with them, that Paul speaks indiscriminately of pastors and teachers as belonging to one and the same class, and that the name teacher does, to some extent, apply to all pastors. But this does not appear to me a sufficient reason why two offices, which I find to differ from each other, should be confounded. Teaching is, no doubt, the duty of all pastors; but to maintain sound doctrine requires a talent for interpreting Scripture, and a man may be a teacher who is not qualified to preach.
Pastors, in my opinion, are those who have the charge of a particular flock; though I have no objection to their receiving the name of teachers, if it be understood that there is a distinct class of teachers, who preside both in the education of pastors and in the instruction of the whole church. It may sometimes happen, that the same person is both a pastor and a teacher, but the duties to be performed are entirely different."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom41.iv.v.iii.html

 

[carlos123]

Thanks for your input Mike. Although I would like to comment on some of what you said...I will let it stand as you said it in the interests of continuing on track to discuss why the word "Pastors" made it into the Geneva. No big deal if people aren't interested in discussing that per se but that is my area of interest as far as this thread is concerned.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

Oops. I mistakenly said that Reba was the one that gave some interesting input. It was actually you Deborah. Sorry about that.

Mind you everyone has had interesting input but I meant in the sense that your input Deborah was of particular interest to me in that you brought up the idea that the word "Pastor" may have been used to distinguish that role from that of an Elder.

Carlos

 

[Free]

Thanks for your input Mike. Although I would like to comment on some of what you said...I will let it stand as you said it in the interests of continuing on track to discuss why the word "Pastors" made it into the Geneva. No big deal if people aren't interested in discussing that per se but that is my area of interest as far as this thread is concerned.

Carlos

It's already been stated that pastor and shepherd mean the same thing but here is more proof:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pastor

So it really doesn't matter which one is used.

 

[carlos123]

I think I can say correctly that the translation of the Greek into pastor and presbytar was solely from the actual Greek.

Okay...let's run with that.

The underlying Greek word that is rendered "Pastors" in Ephesians 4:11 (by the Geneva Bible and most later English bible's) is poimēn or Strong's G4166.

That Greek word is found 18 times in 17 verses in the Greek underlying the King James bible (though I do not have access to the Greek underlying the Geneva Bible directly I understand that it was the same Greek version underlying the King James).

Of those 18 times it is rendered "shepherd" (or a variation of this word) 17 times if I remember correctly in the Geneva Bible. It is rendered only ONCE as "Pastor" in Ephesians 4:11.

Why is that?

Why take a word that is rendered as "shepherd" 17 times and bring in a Latin word (that admittedly means shepherd) and place it in the text as such?

That is what I am after uncovering.

In other words...yes the Geneva Bible was translated from the original Greek but why translate a word 17 times as one word, "shepherd", and once as "Pastors"?

The mystery goes even deeper than that. All English bibles before the Geneva used "shepherd" (or a spelling of that word in the English of the time). The Geneva not only decided to use the word "Pastors" in that one place (for as yet an unknown reason) but to also render a Hebrew word (ra`ah or Strong's H7462) that is found 173 times in the Old Testament as "pastor" or "pastors" in only 8 verses in Jeremiah?

That Hebrew word is NEVER rendered "pastor" or "pastors" in ANY of the other 165 verses!

What's with the use of the word "Pastor"? Why did they use this word at all given that it's not even an English word but rather a Latin one and one that wasn't even used in English bible's before the Geneva?

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

I find it ironic and telling (though of what I am not yet certain) that the name by which we call church leaders today is not only a Latin word but one which didn't' even exist in versions of the bible before the Geneva and that if it had been properly translated without any kind of bias or other external criteria would have been rendered "shepherd" instead.

Doesn't anyone else see something odd about that translation inconsistency?

Carlos

 

[reba]

Seems you should only speak Hebrew or Aramaic.

 

[Brother Mike]

I find it ironic and telling (though of what I am not yet certain) that the name by which we call church leaders today is not only a Latin word but one which didn't' even exist in versions of the bible before the Geneva and that if it had been properly translated without any kind of bias or other external criteria would have been rendered "shepherd" instead.

Doesn't anyone else see something odd about that translation inconsistency?

Carlos

I give up, why is this a big deal. Shepard is given a description in scriptures. Both Greek and Hebrew words mean about the same thing. What does it matter what it was translated as?

 

[carlos123]

It's already been stated that pastor and shepherd mean the same thing but here is more proof:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pastor

So it really doesn't matter which one is used.

I understand what you are saying Free but what do most people think of when they hear the word "Pastor"?

A POSITION. Notice the singular dimension of that word in the minds of most.

What do they think about when they hear the word "shepherd"?

Certainly not a POSITION. Perhaps a shepherd of sheep.

Do people even realize that the word "Pastors" in Ephesians 4:11 is describing someone gifted to be a shepherd of the sheep? A gift that may be present even in someone who has not been ordained or recognized in ANY leadership role at all?

In other words the gift of shepherding is not tied to a POSITION. It is a function within the church, a function that stems from a gift, that can be exercised by anyone having that gift - whether they have a position within a church or not.

Entomologically the words "pastors" and "shepherds" refer to the same thing. But as a matter of practical reality the word "Pastor" has come to be associated with a definite and particular POSITION of church leadership. If they mean the same thing why don't we call church leaders "shepherds"?

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

I give up, why is this a big deal. Shepard is given a description in scriptures. Both Greek and Hebrew words mean about the same thing. What does it matter what it was translated as?

Let's not make it a big deal then. Humor me.

Any idea why the underlying Greek and Hebrew were translated as they were in the verses mentioned?

Carlos

 

[reba]

Too me the word Pastor means servant .. to serve as Christ did.. example
Joh 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

 

[carlos123]

Okay...so why don't we call church overseers Servants instead of Pastors then?

Word choices are significant in that certain things become associated with certain words. Again what's with the use of the word "Pastor" in the Geneva?

If you don't know that's fine but that is what I am after.

Carlos

 

[turnorburn]

Let's not make it a big deal then. Humor me.

Any idea why the underlying Greek and Hebrew were translated as they were in the verses mentioned?

Carlos

What's your answer, why were they translated as they were?

tob