WHY DO MUSLIMS TAKE ATHEISTS AS PROTECTORS?

[Gabe]

A question for the muslim:
Why do some of you take Militant anti-theists as Friends and protectors when the quran prohibits this practice?

There is a growing number of Islamic web sites that make heavy use of articles at atheist web sites in order to attack the Bible. For example Challenge to Christendom, several links at Islam Answers, all over Answering Christianity.

The "Bible Criticism Page", originally created by Robert Squires, has now been copied by more and more Muslims and placed on their sites, or is a prominently displayed link on other Islamic pages.

We need to reflect on this trend and ask some questions.

For example, Mr. Farrell Till, a prominent figure on the atheist web, was on the Muslim-Christian dialog list (MCD) for a certain time. He is the "mentor" and main force of inspiration behind Adnan Khan and his well known web site Christian-Muslim Debate, praised and linked to by many Muslims.

On this dialog mailing list, Mr. Till mocked both God and Jesus repeatedly. (Some examples are appended below.)

Since Mr. Adnan Khan does not want to endanger the Muslim support for his attacks on Christians and the Bible, he usually keeps his opinion on Islam rather quiet. But there have been some public statements by him revealing his opinion of Muslims, the Qur'an or Muhammad.

May 14, 1999, Adnan Khan had started a campaign to get his statements removed from the MCD web archive as well as this web page and his approach included blackmailing me. Therefore the archive pages where his statements were documented are now password protected. A link to the discussion about this removal controversy can be found at the MCD archive. In response, I have therefore decided to display below some excerpts of the postings he orginally made on this public forum. This is warranted under "fair use" guidelines. Adnan Khan stated

Regarding Muslim belief and those who believe it:
... I will repeat again (which I said many time before) that the concept of Hell in Islam ... is so ridiculous that I have to wonder people intelligence who can believe in such absurdity. 1/3 of the Quran wastes time terrifying us with this nonsense.

Regarding Muhammad:
... Third, since you always try to put your unwelcome foot in my mouth, I will agree with Timothy that the Quran is historically a ridiculous book. Muhammad didn't have a clue what he was talking about. Gee, I could do a better job than Muhammad.

[How did the Qur'an come into existence?] Obviously, hallucination. I am sure Muhammad probably was honest -- at least in the beginning -- but I don't think he was mentally normal.

Regarding his relationship to Muslims:
I would say your beloved religion makes as little sense as Christianity.

I wasted hours collecting Muslim responses to Katz and others. I don't appreciate the un-welcome foot of yours; I feel throwing my page in a garbage.

I hesitate to attack Islam, since I do not want to offend Muslims. I always have to depend on them.

Regarding the motivation for his Christian-bashing web activities:
Why do I do this? First, because I like it, it is fun...

These statements speak for themselves.

In the Qur'an we find the following verse:
O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed). Surat-ul Maida (5):57

Isn't calling on the atheists to bash the Christians exactly the issue of the above verse, namely "taking as friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport"? Does the end justify the means, and as long as atheists mocks Christianity more than Islam, it is useful and therefore right? If you Muslim believers can't handle the questions and arguments of Christians, call in the atheists who have no conscience in regard to the manner they attack the sacred?

What do you think is a true and obedient application of this aya to your life as a Muslim?

In my opinion taking this road of action by Muslim sites displays weakness of character and lack of integrity because the Muslim does not even obey his own rules. Furthermore, it seems to indicate an intellectual weakness of Islam since arguments that are genuinely Muslim are apparently not strong enough because they see the need to refer to the unbelievers when arguing with the Christians.

These are some questions which have been forcing themselves upon me lately, observing the rapid increase on atheist material placed on or linked from Muslim sites.

On "Answering Islam" we will purposely not use atheist articles against Islam, since we know ourselves more connected with Muslims on the basis of our common belief in one God, than with atheists who are mocking both of our faiths. Our goal is not the attack and destruction of faith in God, but that our Muslim co-believers in the Creator God will come to recognize the full truth of what God has revealed about himself and His will for our life. We do not need the help of those who do not believe at all. And certainly we do not need atheists to protect us from Muslim attacks. We are confident that the presentation of the truth and genuine Christian scholarship give arguments strong enough to convince the honest and sincere seeker for truth.

A link to the original article:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Response ... ctors.html

 

[Gabe]

...

Apart from the above question about obedience to the commands of the Qur'an there is a more foundational problem. It is the same problem when Muslims use the results of liberal theology (prominently Misha'al Al-Kadhi and Akbarally Meherally). Liberal theologians and atheists are acting on anti-supernaturalist presuppositions. If we use their results, we have to accept their presuppositions on which these results are based if we have any intellectual integrity in our reasoning. But if these presuppositions are applied to Islam, they destroy Islam just as well. This is maybe most obvious in the question of miracles. The anti-supernaturalist argues, that because miracles do not happen, therefore the virgin birth story is a myth, and the miracles of Jesus like raising dead people are myth and therefore these reports are not written by eyewitnesses, but are later legends that developed over time and the Bible is "proven" to be wrong. If Muslims accept the result of such modern liberal scholarship that the Bible is not from God, [as they do in many articles that have statements like "even the Christian scholars say ..."] then they have to accept the presuppositions on which these results are based. But with the same argument, if the virgin birth of Christ is wrong in the Bible it is just as false in the Qur'an and therefore the Qur'an cannot be from God.

Nearly all Muslims web sites use the atheist material "as it is" without any own reflection on it, and seemingly without realizing that the set of presuppositions on which these articles are based destroys Islam just as quick as it seems to disprove Christianity. This is one of the most common methods of Muslim intellectual suicide.

The above described lack of intellectual insight and integrity is one reason that I cannot take Muslims seriously who use atheist material without even thinking about the implications. I fail to see the virtue of such Muslim sites or the intelligence of the Muslims who applaud such sites as are listed above.

And a last question mark I have to put behind the action of those many Muslims who so readily contribute to Mr. Khan's pages taking him as their friend, protector and sponsor, ... as if there were not enough genuine Muslim sites to work with.

Some of the mockery by Mr. Farrell Till:

What Katz is arguing is that the expression "to know Yahweh" meant to understand his power, greatness, etc., or, in other words, to understand that he was the big fish in the little pond of gods that the primitive people of that time believed in. However, this is only a straw man that inerrantists set up to kick around and draw attention away from the real problem in Exodus 6:3. If Katz wants to claim that the story of the Egyptian plagues presents Yahweh as a huffing, puffing, blustering, bragging deity whose character was so petty that he was determined to show the Egyptians a thing or two, he will get no argument from me, because that is exactly what the story does. It's a very good reason why no rational person can believe that anything like this ever happened, that the depiction of Yahweh in this story was merely the result of petty, vindictive, barbaric people creating a god in their own image. But nothing that happened in the story of the plagues, nothing that the Big Y may have said during his reign of terror has anything to do with a simple, plain statement recorded in Exodus 6:3, ...

... So Yahweh, Dagon, Chemosh, Bel, Osiris, Vishnu, Ahura Mazda, Allah--they are all just sounds that were invented to represent superstitious concepts that humankind should have outgrown long ago.

If you want responses from me, clean up your writing act. I don't have the time to wade through disorganized messes like this to try to figure out who said what and what you are trying to say. Jesus Christ, you put Dr. before your name. Is that a Ph.D.? If so, where did you earn it?

Together with various idols, he is mocking also the name of God in the Bible (Yahweh) and in the Qur'an (Allah), being sacred to any true believer. Furthermore, he uses the name of Jesus as a curse word which should be as offensive to Muslims as it is it Christians.

When asked by Dr. Romaine to apologize for using the name of Jesus as a curse word:

I would like you to apologize to all the Christians and Muslims on this list for this use of the name of Jesus. We all in our beliefs hold him in much higher esteem than you seem too and I not only take it as a personal offense but as an offense to all of us.

Mr. Till's response was:

Well, there will be no apology, because as I explained in a posting to Katz, I see no need to apologize for offending religious sensitivities rooted in primitive superstition.

 

[Love25]

A question for the muslim:
Why do some of you take Militant anti-theists as Friends and protectors when the quran prohibits this practice?

There is a growing number of Islamic web sites that make heavy use of articles at atheist web sites in order to attack the Bible. For example Challenge to Christendom, several links at Islam Answers, all over Answering Christianity.

The "Bible Criticism Page", originally created by Robert Squires, has now been copied by more and more Muslims and placed on their sites, or is a prominently displayed link on other Islamic pages.

We need to reflect on this trend and ask some questions.

For example, Mr. Farrell Till, a prominent figure on the atheist web, was on the Muslim-Christian dialog list (MCD) for a certain time. He is the "mentor" and main force of inspiration behind Adnan Khan and his well known web site Christian-Muslim Debate, praised and linked to by many Muslims.

On this dialog mailing list, Mr. Till mocked both God and Jesus repeatedly. (Some examples are appended below.)

Since Mr. Adnan Khan does not want to endanger the Muslim support for his attacks on Christians and the Bible, he usually keeps his opinion on Islam rather quiet. But there have been some public statements by him revealing his opinion of Muslims, the Qur'an or Muhammad.

May 14, 1999, Adnan Khan had started a campaign to get his statements removed from the MCD web archive as well as this web page and his approach included blackmailing me. Therefore the archive pages where his statements were documented are now password protected. A link to the discussion about this removal controversy can be found at the MCD archive. In response, I have therefore decided to display below some excerpts of the postings he orginally made on this public forum. This is warranted under "fair use" guidelines. Adnan Khan stated

Regarding Muslim belief and those who believe it:
... I will repeat again (which I said many time before) that the concept of Hell in Islam ... is so ridiculous that I have to wonder people intelligence who can believe in such absurdity. 1/3 of the Quran wastes time terrifying us with this nonsense.

Regarding Muhammad:
... Third, since you always try to put your unwelcome foot in my mouth, I will agree with Timothy that the Quran is historically a ridiculous book. Muhammad didn't have a clue what he was talking about. Gee, I could do a better job than Muhammad.

[How did the Qur'an come into existence?] Obviously, hallucination. I am sure Muhammad probably was honest -- at least in the beginning -- but I don't think he was mentally normal.

Regarding his relationship to Muslims:
I would say your beloved religion makes as little sense as Christianity.

I wasted hours collecting Muslim responses to Katz and others. I don't appreciate the un-welcome foot of yours; I feel throwing my page in a garbage.

I hesitate to attack Islam, since I do not want to offend Muslims. I always have to depend on them.

Regarding the motivation for his Christian-bashing web activities:
Why do I do this? First, because I like it, it is fun...

These statements speak for themselves.

In the Qur'an we find the following verse:
O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed). Surat-ul Maida (5):57

Isn't calling on the atheists to bash the Christians exactly the issue of the above verse, namely "taking as friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport"? Does the end justify the means, and as long as atheists mocks Christianity more than Islam, it is useful and therefore right? If you Muslim believers can't handle the questions and arguments of Christians, call in the atheists who have no conscience in regard to the manner they attack the sacred?

What do you think is a true and obedient application of this aya to your life as a Muslim?

In my opinion taking this road of action by Muslim sites displays weakness of character and lack of integrity because the Muslim does not even obey his own rules. Furthermore, it seems to indicate an intellectual weakness of Islam since arguments that are genuinely Muslim are apparently not strong enough because they see the need to refer to the unbelievers when arguing with the Christians.

These are some questions which have been forcing themselves upon me lately, observing the rapid increase on atheist material placed on or linked from Muslim sites.

On "Answering Islam" we will purposely not use atheist articles against Islam, since we know ourselves more connected with Muslims on the basis of our common belief in one God, than with atheists who are mocking both of our faiths. Our goal is not the attack and destruction of faith in God, but that our Muslim co-believers in the Creator God will come to recognize the full truth of what God has revealed about himself and His will for our life. We do not need the help of those who do not believe at all. And certainly we do not need atheists to protect us from Muslim attacks. We are confident that the presentation of the truth and genuine Christian scholarship give arguments strong enough to convince the honest and sincere seeker for truth.

A link to the original article:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Response ... ctors.html

If I as Muslim person go to Atheist web site and discuss bible does this mean I take athiests as protectors!?

There is important thing or lets say Fact or Notice that Muslims who talk about christinaity are talking as RESPOND to attacks made against Islam and this is what we find in whole History till present times!

Thats why I find it very healthy what non Muslims do by making Anti propaganda about Islam becuase this ANTI propaganda is actualy Propaganda to ISLAM, becuase people begon to question things whether they are Muslims or non Muslims and when you have Truth in your side you will never need to hide anything or not to talk about any matter concerning Faith and beleives and Doctarine etc.....!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

 

[Gabe]

If I as Muslim person go to Atheist web site and discuss bible does this mean I take athiests as protectors!?

Yes, it does.

There is important thing or lets say Fact or Notice that Muslims who talk about christinaity are talking as RESPOND to attacks made against Islam and this is what we find in whole History till present times!

Using atheistic material. (also, I think you need to study history)

Thats why I find it very healthy what non Muslims do by making Anti propaganda about Islam becuase this ANTI propaganda is actualy Propaganda to ISLAM, becuase people begon to question things whether they are Muslims or non Muslims and when you have Truth in your side you will never need to hide anything or not to talk about any matter concerning Faith and beleives and Doctarine etc.....!

So this verse:

O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed). Surat-ul Maida (5):57

....means absolutely nothing to a Muslim if it means he can score some brownie points against Christianity. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Love25]

So when I post here in this christian forum this means I took your protection!?

Peace

 

[Gabe]

No, I'm not protecting/helping you.

 

[Love25]

No, I'm not protecting/helping you.

So you answered yourself!!

Peace

 

[Gabe]

So you answered yourself!!

No, I answered a question asked by you, which happens to be totally unrelated to the OP. You are either confused or in denial. I'll let the people who read this, make up their own mind as to which one it is.

 

[Love25]

So you answered yourself!!

No, I answered a question asked by you, which happens to be totally unrelated to the OP. You are either confused or in denial. I'll let the people who read this, make up their own mind as to which one it is.

For sure but keep in Mind that Atehiesm didnt succeed with ISLAM like it did with all other Faiths!!!

Peace

 

[Gabe]

For sure but keep in Mind that Atehiesm didnt succeed with ISLAM like it did with all other Faiths!!!

Irrelevant, but you're right; Islam doesn't make so many Atheists, it makes........Christians:

15,000 every year in France

10,000 every year in India

In recent years we've had 10,000 in Afghanistan

2 million in Russia

3,000 in the UK

80,000 in Algeria, 25,000 to 40,000 in Morocco, 5,000 in Iraq, one million in Iran

....and 6 Million every year in Africa

For sure but keep in Mind that Atehiesm didnt succeed with ISLAM like it did with all other Faiths!!!

Peace

Upon reading your response again, I have to disagree; Islam does make a lot of Atheists. In fact, there's 200,000 in the UK alone. Considering that the total UK population of Muslims is under 2 million....that's a lot of Atheists.

Maybe if it weren't for this there would be more.

 

[Love25]

For sure but keep in Mind that Atehiesm didnt succeed with ISLAM like it did with all other Faiths!!!

Irrelevant, but you're right; Islam doesn't make so many Atheists, it makes........Christians:

15,000 every year in France

10,000 every year in India

In recent years we've had 10,000 in Afghanistan

2 million in Russia

3,000 in the UK

80,000 in Algeria, 25,000 to 40,000 in Morocco, 5,000 in Iraq, one million in Iran

....and 6 Million every year in Africa

For sure but keep in Mind that Atehiesm didnt succeed with ISLAM like it did with all other Faiths!!!

Peace

Upon reading your response again, I have to disagree; Islam does make a lot of Atheists. In fact, there's 200,000 in the UK alone. Considering that the total UK population of Muslims is under 2 million....that's a lot of Atheists.

Maybe if it weren't for this there would be more.

Good that you agree that Atheism comes more from Christianity and actualy I as beleiver of God blame you christians for such results as christianity couldnt CONTAIN such EVIL while ISLAM did!

Concerning numbers you gave above I am very happy for you, even I want to say Congratulations as you dont need to worry anymore, right!?

for Africa by those numbers soon all africa will be christian maybe in next 20-30 years, right!?

About Russia the link you gave:

2 million ethnic Muslims adopted baptism in Russia while only 2,5 thousand Russians converted to Islam - expert

And by the way if you go to Russia you will find that churches are empty instead in some cermonies were you can find mainly Old women with their grand sons and daughters!!!!

And we can understand why they have to say such thing about 2 Million Muslims became Christians as simply they NEED to say so!!

For England:

No comment

Anyway for me personaly numbers doesnt mean anything but Fact says ISLAM grow since Day one till today, it stopped for sure for sometime becuase of Muslims, but now it is returning and strong, and notice without any Army or sword!

May Allah (swt) guide you!

Peace

 

[Gabe]

Good that you agree that Atheism comes more from Christianity and actualy I as beleiver of God blame you christians for such results as christianity couldnt CONTAIN such EVIL while ISLAM did!

We're to blame because we no longer persecute non-believers and force them out of fear to fake belief in God? Also, You should really be more tolerant of others; referring to Apostates or Atheists as evil is not very nice.

Concerning numbers you gave above I am very happy for you, even I want to say Congratulations as you dont need to worry anymore, right!?

Thank you, but as the links I provided prove; non-Muslims still have plenty to worry about in Muslim majority countries.

for Africa by those numbers soon all africa will be christian maybe in next 20-30 years, right!?

According to the Islamic source; anything is possible, but to be on the safe side, I would say maybe 50-100 years.

About Russia the link you gave:

[quote:2c0el0l5]2 million ethnic Muslims adopted baptism in Russia while only 2,5 thousand Russians converted to Islam - expert

And by the way if you go to Russia you will find that churches are empty instead in some cermonies were you can find mainly Old women with their grand sons and daughters!!!!

And we can understand why they have to say such thing about 2 Million Muslims became Christians as simply they NEED to say so!![/quote:2c0el0l5]

I couldn't possibly comment...I've never been to Russia, but the newer generation of Christians nowadays prefer to worship at home on Sundays.

For England:

No comment

Good choice. I used to live opposite a Ladbrokes and it used to make me mad watching Muslims gamble their wages away after Friday prayer.

Anyway for me personaly numbers doesnt mean anything

Well it should, it gives you an estimate of how many people are saved or on the straight path.

but Fact says ISLAM grow since Day one till today, it stopped for sure for sometime becuase of Muslims, but now it is returning and strong, and notice without any Army or sword!

The links I provided say otherwise; of course many Islamic terrorists now use guns to intimidate or kill non-Muslims instead of a sword. And while Islam is certainly growing, its mainly due to ridiculous birth-rate figures that dwarf any other faith.

 

[Love25]

We're to blame because we no longer persecute non-believers and force them out of fear to fake belief in God? Also, You should really be more tolerant of others; referring to Apostates or Atheists as evil is not very nice.

Islam is the only religion that accepts others to live inside Islam and beside it, history showed that, and even in present time shows that!

-------------------------------

Thank you, but as the links I provided prove; non-Muslims still have plenty to worry about in Muslim majority countries.

You didnt provide anything, and i exposed one of your links but you AVOIDED to comment on that

2 Million Muslims become Christians in Russia and same source says:

2.5 Million christians become Muslims in Russia

Simple Math says:

2.5 - 2 = 0.5 Million more Muslims!

----------------------------

According to the Islamic source; anything is possible, but to be on the safe side, I would say maybe 50-100 years.

Actualy Islam came to africa through Christian Reverts Egypt, Lybia, Maroc, Algeria etc....

All those left christinaity by the way!

----------------------------

I couldn't possibly comment...I've never been to Russia, but the newer generation of Christians nowadays prefer to worship at home on Sundays.

New christian generation prefare Athiesm etc...... also they prefare discoteques!

----------------------------

Good choice. I used to live opposite a Ladbrokes and it used to make me mad watching Muslims gamble their wages away after Friday prayer.

There is Muslims who gamble, drink, go to Discoteques but they are still Muslims, and when they return to their countries they dont make those SINS by the way!

So you should feel shame that you made EVIL availble in your countries instead of being proud that some Muslim SINNERS come to your countries!

----------------------------

Well it should, it gives you an estimate of how many people are saved or on the straight path.

I dont worry about that Matter at all becuase Isee each day new converts to Islam coming from different religions and by the way most of them are Girls and women!!!

----------------------------

The links I provided say otherwise; of course many Islamic terrorists now use guns to intimidate or kill non-Muslims instead of a sword. And while Islam is certainly growing, its mainly due to ridiculous birth-rate figures that dwarf any other faith.

Islamic terrosist were you should be specific and they fight which armies in which lands!?

And you are right our Birth rates are High beside new reverts to islam in west are also high!

Peace

 

[Sanitarium]

2 Million Muslims become Christians in Russia and same source says:

2.5 Million christians become Muslims in Russia

Simple Math says:

2.5 - 2 = 0.5 Million more Muslims!

Check again: it says 2.5 thousand (two thousand, five hundred) converted to Islam.

2.5 million - 2,500 = 2,497,500 more Christians.

And you are right our Birth rates are High beside new reverts to islam in west are also high!

2008 American Religion Survey:

1990: 527,000 Muslims (0.3%)
2001: 1,104,000 (0.5%) (11 years = +577,000)
2008: 1,349,000 (0.6%) (7 years = + 245,000)

The numbers don't seem high to me. The numbers above are inclusive of those born to Muslim parents and also immigration (Muslims moving from somewhere to Ameria). There isn't much room left for reverts is there?

2008 aris chart by itself
Full Report
Website

 

[Gabe]

We're to blame because we no longer persecute non-believers and force them out of fear to fake belief in God? Also, You should really be more tolerant of others; referring to Apostates or Atheists as evil is not very nice.

Islam is the only religion that accepts others to live inside Islam and beside it, history showed that, and even in present time shows that!

No, a lot of history and the present-day (please refer to my links) does not show that. The present-day does show that non-Christians (unlike those in Islamic countries) can and do live in Christian majority countries without any fear of persecution.

[quote:2g4f7f3y]Thank you, but as the links I provided prove; non-Muslims still have plenty to worry about in Muslim majority countries.

You didnt provide anything, and i exposed one of your links but you AVOIDED to comment on that

2 Million Muslims become Christians in Russia and same source says:

2.5 Million christians become Muslims in Russia

Simple Math says:

2.5 - 2 = 0.5 Million more Muslims!
[/quote:2g4f7f3y]

No, (as already pointed-out by Sanitarium) I think you should re-read what you have quoted:

2 million ethnic Muslims adopted baptism in Russia while only 2,5 thousand Russians converted to Islam - expert

2 million Muslims converted to Christianity minus 2.5 thousand Christians converted to Islam equals....You do the math.

[quote:2g4f7f3y]According to the Islamic source; anything is possible, but to be on the safe side, I would say maybe 50-100 years.

Actualy Islam came to africa through Christian Reverts Egypt, Lybia, Maroc, Algeria etc....

All those left christinaity by the way![/quote:2g4f7f3y]

And? Today they are leaving Islam by the Millions to embrace Christianity.

[quote:2g4f7f3y]I couldn't possibly comment...I've never been to Russia, but the newer generation of Christians nowadays prefer to worship at home on Sundays.

New christian generation prefare Athiesm etc...... also they prefare discoteques!
[/quote:2g4f7f3y]

Careful Love25, making mass generalisations of Christians is not very nice, especially when its as illogical as your statement above. If you "prefer" Atheism, then you are not a Christian, new generation or not.

[quote:2g4f7f3y]Good choice. I used to live opposite a Ladbrokes and it used to make me mad watching Muslims gamble their wages away after Friday prayer.

There is Muslims who gamble, drink, go to Discoteques but they are still Muslims, and when they return to their countries they dont make those SINS by the way![/quote:2g4f7f3y]

Could you run that by me again?

So you should feel shame that you made EVIL availble in your countries

Pardon? Britain is not "my" country and it has not made "evil" available. Ever heard of freedom? I guess not, but without it Muslims would not be allowed to build they're mosques here. Freedom in the UK is something all Muslims should be thankful for, because Atheists, Hindu's and Christians seldom receive it in Muslim majority countries.

instead of being proud that some Muslim SINNERS come to your countries!

As I've stated above, it made me "mad" not "proud" and it was you who were being prideful by making off-topic boastful (and baseless) statements like the following:

So you answered yourself!!

No, I answered a question asked by you, which happens to be totally unrelated to the OP. You are either confused or in denial. I'll let the people who read this, make up their own mind as to which one it is.

For sure but keep in Mind that Atehiesm didnt succeed with ISLAM like it did with all other Faiths!!!

Peace

[quote:2g4f7f3y]Well it should, it gives you an estimate of how many people are saved or on the straight path.

I dont worry about that Matter at all becuase Isee each day new converts to Islam coming from different religions and by the way most of them are Girls and women!!![/quote:2g4f7f3y]

Yes, and most of them leave within the first few years...for Atheism or Christianity, no doubt.

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Muslims_Leaving_Islam

[quote:2g4f7f3y]The links I provided say otherwise; of course many Islamic terrorists now use guns to intimidate or kill non-Muslims instead of a sword. And while Islam is certainly growing, its mainly due to ridiculous birth-rate figures that dwarf any other faith.

Islamic terrosist were you should be specific and they fight which armies in which lands!?[/quote:2g4f7f3y]

Have you even bothered reading the last link I provided? I am not speaking of wars. I am speaking of Muslims killing and attacking Christians and all other non-Muslims in Muslim majority countries.

And you are right our Birth rates are High beside new reverts to islam in west are also high!

Peace

No they are not "high" not when compared to Christian figures in the East, and especially not when you take into consideration the risks involved with becoming a Christian in the East

 

[Love25]

First time you are right it says 2.5 thousand christians converted to Islam so sorry for this mistake, but the intresting part that facts say another thing for example number of Russia girls married to Muslims are very huge for example in Egypt it is more then 250 000 girl, and from this number a lot of them Reverted to Islam, and I personaly know 07 girls Revetred to Islam without any marriage!

But you see in Russia they cannot count and bring figures like that but for sure they can declare any numbers they want as there is no tax on words!

And as I said before churches in Russia are empty same like a lot of churches in west but even more, while Mosques in Russia are not enough for people who come to pray!

Today in Russia there is about 25 Million Muslims

Also Russia by time will be Islamic country, Egypt by the way became Muslim country in 200 years period of time, and Islam always grow in peace times!

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europ ... 94963.html

Peace

 

[Gabe]

First time you are right it says 2.5 thousand christians converted to Islam so sorry for this mistake,

First time?

but the intresting part that facts say another thing for example number of Russia girls married to Muslims are very huge for example in Egypt it is more then 250 000 girl, and from this number a lot of them Reverted to Islam,

Is this supposed to impress me? I come from a family of six. Three of us are Christian now, and the other three are still Muslim. Guess what....all of my Muslim brothers wives (one is not married as yet & I would say he is bordering on Atheism) have been forced into accepting Islam. This is not impressive, its sadistic.

and I personaly know 07 girls Revetred to Islam without any marriage!

I personally know many Muslims, Hindu's, Atheists etc who have converted to Christianity (my younger brother and sister being two) this does not prove a thing.

And as I said before churches in Russia are empty same like a lot of churches in west but even more, while Mosques in Russia are not enough for people who come to pray!

And I'm supposed to take your word for it? Have you personally been to every Christian church in Russia to verify this?

Even if this were to be the case; You have failed to take into consideration the point I had made earlier:

..I've never been to Russia, but the newer generation of Christians nowadays prefer to worship at home on Sundays.

...you have also failed to take into consideration the total numbers of churches and mosques in Russia. If there are not many mosques in Russia (which there are not) then they would obviously be quite full.

But you see in Russia they cannot count and bring figures like that but for sure they can declare any numbers they want as there is no tax on words!

Of course you can count the number of converts from Islam to Christianity. You can do this by looking at Baptismal records.

Today in Russia there is about 25 Million Muslims

My source is worthless because there is no "tax" on words, but you source is accurate?

There are only between 7 and 9 million people who actually practise Islam (pray, fast etc) in Russia, the rest are only Muslims by ethnicity (i.e. they're all "evil" Atheists)

According to the most recent estimates by the R&F Agency, there are more than 20 million officially self-identified Muslims in Russia, a number that has risen by 40% in the last 15 years, though no more than 6 million are truly orthodox.[1] Roman Silantyev, a Russian Islamologist has estimated that there are only between 7 and 9 million people who practise Islam in Russia, and that the rest are only Muslims by ethnicity.

source

And the total number of Muslims in Russia has no relevance to the number of converts Christianity receives from Islam, all it does is further highlight the high Birth-rates among Muslims.

Also Russia by time will be Islamic country, Egypt by the way became Muslim country in 200 years period of time, and Islam always grow in peace times!

Sure it does, because in peace times Muslims are free to emigrate to the "immoral" Christian countries that so many of them hate, marry Muslims/non-Muslims and pro-create like rabbits while enjoying a much higher standard of living than in most Islamic countries.

BTW do you really consider the persecution of Christians in Egypt to be peaceful?

Persecution