Why Does God Permit Evil and Suffering?

[ronniechoate34]

That's not the only reason, we are being refined, conformed to His image, dying to our flesh. If we didn't suffer, we wouldn't do any of these things.

This is true.


Though I will say that I believe that if we were innocent there would be no need for us to be conformed and suffering wouldn't be necessary. Sin brought the evil into the world in the first place, and there has been suffering ever since.

 

[Jake]

This is true.


Though I will say that I believe that if we were innocent there would be no need for us to be conformed and suffering wouldn't be necessary. Sin brought the evil into the world in the first place, and there has been suffering ever since.

Agree ronnie! We would already be perfect!

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah,
Did you read the verse I gave you?
Without evil, how do we know what good is?

If Adam had not sinned would there had been any need to not just keep on with perfection? Oh, God created His creatures perfect without any knowledge of what GOOD is? That is quite a mouthful youngin! :wink3

 

[Jake]

If Adam had not sinned would there had been any need to not just keep on with perfection? Oh, God created His creatures perfect without any knowledge of what GOOD is? That is quite a mouthful youngin! :wink3

But Adam was created with no intention of him staying in the garden, huh?

You and I would not know what good was, unless we contrasted it with evil. Then we have a choice, right? To participate with Him in revealing His glory - OR joining in with the anti-christ. There is always a contrast.

 

[FrustratedForumer]

God did create evil.

Really? That's not what my bible says.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Why Does God Permit Evil and Suffering?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

<!-- google_ad_section_start -->
A reply from Rockie: God did create evil. ;)



A reply from another: Really? That's not what my bible says.

And a reply from another: Nor from my Word of God.

A couple highlites by me. --Elijah<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
​

 

[FrustratedForumer]

So what's the point?

At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-evil.html


Does the creation account in Genesis mention God creating darkness? No, darkness already existed before God created light (Genesis 1:2-3), God created light, darkness is simply the absence of light. We see this pattern repeatedly in the world, for example: Cold is not "something", it is a lack of heat, dryness is simply the absence of wetness, and ignorance is the lack of knowledge, note that it sounds silly to say that knowledge is the lack of ignorance.

So too all evil is simply the absence of the good things that originate from God, such as: love, holiness, unity, truth, harmony, health, peace, life, pleasure, faith, order, etc... in the absence of these "things" you have: hate, unholiness, disunity, fallacy, disharmony, sickness, war, death, pain, fear, disorder, etc... which all fall under the category of evil.

A natural disaster like a flood is considered something evil, but water is not in itself evil, neither is rain or any of the ingredients that make it a disaster, the fact is a flood and other natural disasters result from a lack of balance, order and harmony in environmental factors. A plague of vermin is a lack of ecological balance.

The Bible says God created all things and all things were good, evil isn't good, therefore God didn't create evil. If God created all things, and God didn't create evil, then evil is not a thing, but a lack of something.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.
http://www.truth.info/spiritual/did.god.create.evil.htm

 

[Jake]

Really? That's not what my bible says.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


God created everything!

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Jake]

Re: Why Does God Permit Evil and Suffering?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

<!-- google_ad_section_start -->
A reply from Rockie: God did create evil. ;)



A reply from another: Really? That's not what my bible says.

And a reply from another: Nor from my Word of God.

A couple highlites by me. --Elijah<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
​

So Elijah, I suppose now you're going to tell me God didn't create hell either?

 

[stovebolts]

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


God created everything!

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Hi Rockie,

Is it possible that God creates darkness and evil when he removes his blessings?

If you look at the two verses you posted, what did God form and make, and what did God create?

To go along with Frustrated Forumer, what he speaks of is very, very Jewish in nature. Actually, the book of John is written around this theme.

We often think of evil as something we do, but in God's eyes it's also the good that we don't do. For instance, the Jews were told to leave the corners of their fields for the orphan and the widow. This is how God provided for them. Is it evil to harvest the corners of your fields? No, it's not in and of itself. However, evil is created when we let the less fortunate ones in life die or go hungry of starvation because of greed when it's God who has blessed us to begin with. Thus, by not doing good with what God has blessed us with, evil has been created within that vacuum. Jesus tells a parable about this, and the consequences are dire. Can you think of this parable?

The concept carries over to light. Darkness is the absence of light in much the same way that evil is the absence of goodness, and when you look at the properties of light, it is not consumed by the darkness but rather, it overcomes the darkness. If you want to create darkness, simply remove the light. It's the only way darkness can be created.

This really poses a good theological question... Is God present in his absence?

:bounceball

 

[FrustratedForumer]

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


God created everything!

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Some deeper study will plainly show this folley wrong.

 

[Jake]

Hi Rockie,

Is it possible that God creates darkness and evil when he removes his blessings?

If you look at the two verses you posted, what did God form and make, and what did God create?

He created everything, simply because He created something, doesn't mean He is that something that He did create. He created hell, too, is hell evil?

We often think of evil as something we do, but in God's eyes it's also the good that we don't do. For instance, the Jews were told to leave the corners of their fields for the orphan and the widow. This is how God provided for them. Is it evil to harvest the corners of your fields? No, it's not in and of itself. However, evil is created when we let the less fortunate ones in life die or go hungry of starvation because of greed when it's God who has blessed us to begin with. Thus, by not doing good with what God has blessed us with, evil has been created within that vacuum. Jesus tells a parable about this, and the consequences are dire. Can you think of this parable?

The parable of the talent?
Evil is the absence of God, yet it doesn't mean He didn't create it. We do have a choice to participate with Him or not, if we chose - not, then we are evil. All else is evil to Him because He is Holy, anything other than Holy, is evil. If evil did not exist, then how do we know what Holy is?

God has one plan, it all began when Adam ate the fruit, it was part of His plan and the goal is to reveal His glory, we are here to join with Him, in revealing His glory, to the full stature of Christ. OR, we can not join Him.

The concept carries over to light. Darkness is the absence of light in much the same way that evil is the absence of goodness, and when you look at the properties of light, it is not consumed by the darkness but rather, it overcomes the darkness. If you want to create darkness, simply remove the light. It's the only way darkness can be created.

And now we know how evil was created.

This really poses a good theological question... Is God present in his absence?

:bounceball

If God is in control of all things and He is IN all things, how can He be truly absent from anything?

 

[childeye]

At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing†like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good.

This is all well said.

One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil).

Respectfully this is not correct. No one can choose good without first knowing what good is. Yet one can be good without choosing to be by virtue of having God's attributes. No one chooses darkness except out of ignorance. Since darkness is ignorance, only the ignorant would choose darkness. Hence when you put the word free in front of will and count it as an absolute, you count ignorance as an ability when it is properly a disability.

The fact that God is the Light and all knowledge pertains to Him means He is the absolute, not us. We revolve around Him and not the other way around. Therefore our freedom or slavery are properly defined relative to Him. If we are headed towards the light from darkness we are headed towards freedom. If we are headed away from God we are headed toward slavery. However since Satan is contrary and so are his children it is counted freedom to go away from God and slavery to go towards God. So we see two contrary motivations depending on what you believe and according to how you perceive. The will that is possessed of the Truth is free in perception while the will possessed of Lies disguised as the Truth are slaves. To say the will is always free is not acknowledging this, making man the absolute center and God his prerogative.

Does the creation account in Genesis mention God creating darkness? No, darkness already existed before God created light [/QUOTE

God Spiritually is the Light and preceded darkness. Genesis as you said is refering to the creation not the Creator. I just want to clarify. The self-evident Truth presented by the Holy Spirit says that the Truth does not exist for the sake of the lies but that lies exist for the sake of the Truth. Therefore Light always was and Truth has always been and will be eternal, without beginning or end. While you are talking expressly talking about creation, it may give the false impression that spirits of darknes preceded God in existence turning theological thought inside out.

and ignorance is the lack of knowledge, note that it sounds silly to say that knowledge is the lack of ignorance.

Here you secure my point, for you acknowledge that knowledge precedes ignorance in existence. Therefore so does Light precede darkness.

So too all evil is simply the absence of the good things that originate from God, such as: love, holiness, unity, truth, harmony, health, peace, life, pleasure, faith, order, etc... in the absence of these "things" you have: hate, unholiness, disunity, fallacy, disharmony, sickness, war, death, pain, fear, disorder, etc... which all fall under the category of evil.

This I can also gladly agree with.

The Bible says God created all things and all things were good, evil isn't good, therefore God didn't create evil.

Yes, but God can make good out of evil unto His own purposes which He proposed, and the creating of incorruptible children out of that which was corruptible is His will.

If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots†that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.†God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

What you are describing as a genuine free will is in reality just a will possessed of either Knowledge or ignorance. For whoever would choose not to worship God or choose to worship God for that matter is ignorant and not free in their will. For example, those who Truly worship Him in Truth can't help but fall to their knees and weep for joy at the revelation of Him. They do not decide to do this. Like starving prisoners set free from their misery. Therefore it is correct to say that those who worship Him deeply have experienced His absence deeply. Those who are forgiven much Love much. It is knowledge of God that draws a man to worship.

If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.

Coming into the knowledge of God is a journey out of ignorance. No man chooses to worship God, the revelation of His goodness and that He alone is Holy draws true worship. In monotheism there is only One God. To believe there is an option is not to acknowledge this.

In effect you are saying God allows us to choose Him or not and those who don't choose Him all are tormented in fire forever and this brings forth a worship that is not obligated.

I would rather it be said that being ignorant of what we had, we were beguiled into giving away what was perfect for that which was corrupt, but God allowed this that we may come to know what it is we had lost. The idea that I must choose or I am a robot is therefore disingenous and is properly defined as haughtiness. We are vessels of spirit and we are possessed by what we perceive as truth and choose accordingly.
“"Haughtiness," mused Ruth, "is merely a cloak to selfishness, or the want of a proper spirit of humanity."â€

 

[childeye]

He created everything, simply because He created something, doesn't mean He is that something that He did create. He created hell, too, is hell evil?
The parable of the talent?
Evil is the absence of God, yet it doesn't mean He didn't create it. We do have a choice to participate with Him or not, if we chose - not, then we are evil. All else is evil to Him because He is Holy, anything other than Holy, is evil. If evil did not exist, then how do we know what Holy is?

God has one plan, it all began when Adam ate the fruit, it was part of His plan and the goal is to reveal His glory, we are here to join with Him, in revealing His glory, to the full stature of Christ. OR, we can not join Him.

And now we know how evil was created.

If God is in control of all things and He is IN all things, how can He be truly absent from anything?

Good points made here.