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Why Ecumenical Creeds Should Be Dropped

E

Enow

Member
2 Corinthians 6:14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The creeds were created as unifying the christian churches, but there can be no agreements with the Roman Catholic Church. Whethor the creeds contain errors or not: the scriptures above rebukes any such " ecumenical agreements".
 
All man made creeds "should be dropped". They are one of the greatest sources of religious division in so-called Christsendom.

If your creed contains more than the Bible your have too much! If less than the Bible you have too little! If argued that one's creed contains only what the Bible teaches why have it anyway? Throw them all in the nearest trash can.

The Bible ONLY makes Christians Only.

Oh yes, if thrown in the nearest trash can pour gasoline on them and a match lest some poor wandering soul dig them out and become more confused.
 
Webb said:
If your creed contains more than the Bible your have too much!
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Ironically, this sounds like an unbiblically-based creed, doesn't it???

Webb said:
If less than the Bible you have too little!
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People don't need to be able to read to love God and their neighbors.

Webb said:
The Bible ONLY makes Christians Only.
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Where do people come up with this stuff from? :screwloose

God makes Christians. The bible is among NUMEROUS tools that God gives mankind to enable man to come into union with God... Check out Ephesians 4:11-13, for example.

Regards
 
God gave the Bible, the Bible tells how to become a Christian, no other source tells us that, thus the Bible only makes Christians only.
 
Former Christian said:
Enow

Define "Ecumenical Creeds". What Creeds does your Church follow? Does your Church have a Statement of Faith?

FC
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I was formerly of the Presbyterian church, but no more. I still follow Jesus Christ by His grace and by His help as He is my Good Shepherd as well as my Saviour.

All man-made creed should be dropped. Ecumenical creeds are such that any having an agreement with the Roman Catholic Church.

In any event, 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 rebukes any God fearing church from reciting such creeds when it is being done in an ecumenical format with the RCC. There can be no agreement with the RCC.
 
francisdesales said:
Hey Moderators - you going to let this one go, or should I respond and explain the ToS again?
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Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.
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I am not discussing Catholic doctrine nor explaining by Catholic doctrines why there can be no agreement with the RCC.

I am stating plainly that the creeds which was done in ecumenical format as uniting the churches goes against the scriptures in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18.
 
Webb said:
All man made creeds "should be dropped". They are one of the greatest sources of religious division in so-called Christsendom.

The Bible ONLY makes Christians Only.
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Granted: Jesus saves all those that believe in Him: but the high calling of God is to be His disciples, and a believer can only do that by continuing in His words by His grace and by His help.

John 8:30As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
 
Francis

I see you forgot you're on a Protestant forum. Evangelical and Fundamentalist type Protestants. Protestants that believe like Webb, "The Bible ONLY makes Christians Only." The Catholic view that the Church makes Christians is believed, but not acknowledged in as strict a sense as the Catholic Church. You really need to realize that, and I should think you would have already got the picture having been on the forum for five years. I've been here only a couple months and I got the picture, being as much an outcast in the sense that what I believe isn't quite the same as everyone else here.

FC
 
Webb said:
God gave the Bible, the Bible tells how to become a Christian, no other source tells us that, thus the Bible only makes Christians only.
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Keep in mind this truth:

Psalm 100:3Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Ephesians 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: ....9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

The Word of God is a more apt term that makes believers christians: and the Word of God is Jesus Christ.
 
Enow

"All man-made creed should be dropped. Ecumenical creeds are such that any having an agreement with the Roman Catholic Church."

That's a pretty Protestant thing to say. No wonder Francis is offended.

But I agree about creeds. Their purpose is basically to summarize a particular part of what is commonly believed, but disputed by a segment. When it becomes authoritative, it becomes as authoritative as the Bible itself. Believing as you do about the Bible, creeds can become more of a hindrance to unity than a support of it. There are some groups that don't have creeds, written creeds, that is. But they have creeds nevertheless. The Churches of Christ are as against creeds as you and Webb are. But they have an oral creed that's as authoritative to them as any written creed. The common hymnal, not being a part of the Bible, is nevertheless a form of creed, with the same kind of authority. I call hymnals the second Bible.

All we have to do is say "I believe thus and so", and voila, a creed is formed, even though it's a personal creed. And when it becomes authoritative to a group of followers, voila, a denomination is born based on a creed. I don't think that as long as Christians are under the influence of denominational thinking, Christianity will ever be any more than it is. A group of communities each with it's own creed. Since my creed is different than any creed in Christianity, I'm a

Former Christian
 
Yes, Jesus is the Word and we shall be judged by His word (John 12:48) and His word is found ONLY in the Bible IS IT NOT? Therefore, the Bible only makes Christians only.
 
Maybe we are in closer agreement than we think. I claim to be neither Catholic, Prostetant nor Jew in matters of religion, simply a Chistian, nothing more, nothing less and nothing different I Pet.4:16.
 
Former Christian said:
Enow

"All man-made creed should be dropped. Ecumenical creeds are such that any having an agreement with the Roman Catholic Church."

That's a pretty Protestant thing to say. No wonder Francis is offended.
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I doubt it is a Protestant thing to say when the Protestant churches are using them.

And as far as offense goes: if disagreements is the basis of all offenses, then I can hardly see how anybody can discuss anything in any forum.

But I agree about creeds. Their purpose is basically to summarize a particular part of what is commonly believed, but disputed by a segment. When it becomes authoritative, it becomes as authoritative as the Bible itself. Believing as you do about the Bible, creeds can become more of a hindrance to unity than a support of it.
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Not from what I have seen. Although the creeds themselves do not unify since they are being said in their own respective denomenational church: it is the mentality from which all other ecumenical activities would spring from.

There are some groups that don't have creeds, written creeds, that is. But they have creeds nevertheless. The Churches of Christ are as against creeds as you and Webb are. But they have an oral creed that's as authoritative to them as any written creed.
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It goes to identity, but a creed is not necessary, and dangerously forming an agreement that those not so likeminded in Christ would take up and be misrepresenting others by their errant teachings or sinful lifetsyles. So shouold believers be identified by a creed? No. Nor should one be identified by a church les they change and start misrepresenting their walk with the LOrd.

So far: in being identified with God: we are all children of God by faith in Jesus Christ. And yet for others to know that we are His disciples is by how we love one another.

The common hymnal, not being a part of the Bible, is nevertheless a form of creed, with the same kind of authority. I call hymnals the second Bible.
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I call hymnals as trying to find a Christ honouring song in the wilderness. There are some: but there are some that are not.

There are unscriptural hymnals that addresses the Holy Spirit: glorifies the Holy Spirit: and some hymnals has such worship and glory given the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, even exchanging the name of Jesus with the name of the "Trinity", that it is no wonder why the way is broadened in the worship place when the actual Holy Spirit in us does not seek that glory nor lead believers to glorify Himself as the Holy Spirit: as He, being God, is leading believers to honour the Son by testifying of the Son in seeking the glory of the Son and thereby the Father's as well. Some hymns make believers forget Whose name is above every other name.

Colossians 3:16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

All we have to do is say "I believe thus and so", and voila, a creed is formed, even though it's a personal creed. And when it becomes authoritative to a group of followers, voila, a denomination is born based on a creed. I don't think that as long as Christians are under the influence of denominational thinking, Christianity will ever be any more than it is. A group of communities each with it's own creed. Since my creed is different than any creed in Christianity, I'm a

Former Christian
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Interesting creed: I Reckon you will have to provide a link to a thread explaining your stance in being a former christian: as it is, I am sure many can testify to being a "Former Christian" by a different creed as well.

I believe creeds should not be used to define us: as some may take up a creed and misrespresent them just as churches are now misrepresenting the members within them by making political compromises with the world.
 
Webb

I agree with you, except for the Christian part.

The term Christian was never intended to be used as a self-denotation. “The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch†in Acts 11:26, is the first mention of the term. It is interpretively understood as “The disciples first called themselves Christians in Antiochâ€. Can you see the difference?

No writer of the New Testament calls himself a Christian. Though the reference in Peter you mention is often interpretively understood that way.

The term Christian has already been taken as a self-denotation by something I consider a man-made religion....Christianity. And I no longer consider myself a part of that religion.

The term Christian merely means a follower of Christ. As those who are in Christ, we are much more.

It’s for a reason that I call myself a

Former Christian
 
Enow

“"All man-made creed should be dropped. Ecumenical creeds are such that any having an agreement with the Roman Catholic Church."
I doubt it is a Protestant thing to say when the Protestant churches are using them. â€

It was your singling out the Catholics as something to be shunned that makes it appear to be Protestant.

“And as far as offense goes: if disagreements is the basis of all offenses, then I can hardly see how anybody can discuss anything in any forum.â€

That I can agree with. But when you single out a specific group, as you did, in the sense that you did, then it becomes more than mere disagreement. If you had of included Protestants and let it go at that, there would have been no offense. As you say, even Protestants have creeds. If you had of just said that creeds are more divisive than unitive, you would have no argument from me.

I’m not in favor of the thinking of Christianity as a whole. It’s denominational in its thinking. And I emphasize that because it’s a part of what I am. And people here understand that. They know I’m not here to convert anyone to my own thinking. To do so would be to nullify what I believe about Christianity, and what I believe to be the solution to the problem. Which is in direct contrast to starting another denomination.

Webb doesn’t consider himself a Protestant. But that apparently isn’t the case with you.

I realize that Catholics and Protestants are more alike in their thinking than not, more alike than most on either side realize. That’s one thing I think Francis realizes. Otherwise his whole purpose on this forum would be to evangelize. And I don’t think he would have lasted five years if that was his primary agenda. So you’ll have to forgive me if I’m as offended as a Catholic by what you implied. Because I’m not what you are either. Let’s just hope and consider this all a misunderstanding.


“So shouold believers be identified by a creed? No. Nor should one be identified by a church les they change and start misrepresenting their walk with the LOrd.
So far: in being identified with God: we are all children of God by faith in Jesus Christ. And yet for others to know that we are His disciples is by how we love one another.â€

I agree with this. Christianity doesn’t follow Christ as is seen by its denominational existence being in contradiction to John 17.


“I call hymnals as trying to find a Christ honouring song in the wilderness.â€

I call hymnals the second Bible because they are in practicality used in that sense. The hymns in the hymnals are not inspired, no matter how much Scripture they contain. Any more than any other book written by a Christian. Or any sermon a Christian might deliver. Yet they are used as if they are as inspired as the Bible. I know of at least one denomination that acknowledges their hymnal to be a doctrinal standard. And thus like a creed, it has the same authority as the Bible itself. The Bible already has an inspired hymnal. It’s called the Psalms.

In my opinion, to be against creeds, and not against hymnals, which in practicality is a creed in song, is to nullify what you say about the creeds.

Creeds are considered as authoritative as the Bible itself. Just denominationally authoritative. So also the hymnals.


“Interesting creed: I Reckon you will have to provide a link to a thread explaining your stance in being a former christianâ€

Refer back to what I said to Webb. Maybe you’ll better understand where I’m coming from. I could start a thread, “Why I’m a former Christian, and why I believe what I doâ€. To put it all in one place. But since I already have 240 posts to my name, the space needed would be prohibitive. Unfortunately, there’s no way to index one’s posts. So referral without an excellent memory is pretty much an impossibility. My memory is far from excellent.


“I believe creeds should not be used to define us: as some may take up a creed and misrespresent them just as churches are now misrepresenting the members within them by making political compromises with the world.â€

Creeds and denominations go hand in hand. Creeds are simply denominational beliefs of the denomination.

FC
 
As long as the Bible is #1, what is the problem with creeds?

My church sometimes says the Aposltes or Nicene creeds together and find it very unifying and helpful. I find it iss a good summary.

Ok, let's take the Apostles creed. Who agrees and who disagrees with what it says?

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen. ​
 
Hi FormerChristian

I could go into the Greek of Acts 11:26 regarding the name Christian there but suffice to say that Paul in reciting his conversion to Agrippa heard Agrippa answere him: ''Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian." Acts 26:28. There we have it! Agrippa well understood Paul was not trying to make him a Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran (although they did not exist in that day) or anything else of our day or of Paul's day but simply a Christian. Agrippa understood that. I can understand it. Its in the Bible and its not divisive. Again the Bible only makes Christians only.
 
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