Why god?

[Novum]

Before I even get started, I want to make it very clear that this post is not intended to mock anyone or be offensive. This is very simply a question I've been pondering that came to me during a PM conversation with another forum member. I'm looking for constructive responses, not threats of damnation. That said...

Why do I need god, and why should I be a christian? Or, stated alternatively, what benefits do I derive for myself by either believing in a god or becoming a christian?

1. Is it a system of morals and ethics? The ability to live ethically? It is certainly true that many Christians derive their systems of ethics from what Jesus supposedly taught in the bible. Many Christians further state that their fear of god and/or hell is a primary motivation for them to act ethically.

I've been an atheist for the past 4 years or so and an agnostic for the 6 years before then. Never in my life have I appeared in court, had a traffic ticket, or ever been fined. I've studied all kinds of ethical theory - teleological theory, deontological theory, utilitarianism, psychological egoism, casuistry, and many others. None require a belief in a god. But through a broad understanding of many kinds of theories, plus a fairly solid starting axiom (the Golden Rule), I - and many others - have found it simple, straightforward, and rewarding to live morally and ethically without requiring a belief in a higher being.

Given myself and the millions of others that live ethically without belief in a god, plus the billions of others that live ethically without belief in the Christian god, I must conclude that I should reject this point - it is not necessary to be a theist or a Christian to live ethically.

2. Is it a purpose, a goal, a sense of direction? Many Christians believe that their belief in god gives their life purpose and meaning, or that without their belief they would feel lost and helpless.

I just can't identify with that feeling. As an atheist, I know that this life is the only one I will ever get, so it has infinite value for me. I know that the only purpose in my life is the one that I set for myself, so I have taken it upon myself to work hard in university, attend graduate school, and secure for myself a satisfying, productive career. I have a great group of friends, a happy family, and some great relatives. If I find deficiencies or problems in my life, I must do my utmost to remedy them - again, because I know that this is the only life I'll ever get. There are no second chances for me.

I must therefore reject this point as well. I have both a purpose, a drive, and a set of goals for my life, all without belief in a god.

3. Is it an afterlife? Many Christians have expressed strong desires to life forever in an afterlife. It's also very reassuring and comforting to think that, when someone you know dies, you will see them again in the afterlife. I will freely admit that these two thoughts - being able to live forever and being able to see people again that have died - certainly are attractive.

But what if we have the wrong idea about the afterlife - what if you are destined to live forever as a worm or beetle? I don't think anyone would take up that offer. I sure wouldn't.

Let's assume, for now, that the afterlife is the standard picture of eternal bliss in heaven. I cannot agree that I would desire to live forever in heaven. While the universe is (very) large and it would certainly take a (very) long time to explore it, it would not take forever. But an afterlife is forever. That means that, after a while, I'd just get - for lack of a better word - bored. Having limits on your lifetime energizes and motivates you; without these limits there is no reason to, well, do much of anything. I don't think I would last very long before desiring to "opt out" of immortality and be somehow put to rest.

Moreover, remember that our best science suggests that the universe has a finite lifespan. If you are truly immortal, that means you'll still be around long after the universe is a cold dead pile of mushy matter. That fate sounds, to be honest, rather horrible.

I must therefore reject this point as well. The concept of an afterlife just doesn't appear attractive to me.

-----

That said, I suppose I'll ask you, the forum readers, what you think. Why do I need a god?

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

The main reason you need God is because you, like everyone else, were born into sin. Sin, is disobedience to God. The penalty of sin is death. Also, sin has separated us from God. God, thankfully “became flesh†(John 1:14) in the form of Jesus Christ and died for our sins. When one repents, admits that they are a sinner and they need to be justified before God, and accepts Jesus Christ then they are justified before God. That basically means by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, Jesus takes our place and pays the dept of sin. Such an atonement free us form our sin nature and saves us from damnation, the second death. Along with that we are granted a personal relationship with God. Throughout our life, after becoming a Christian, we have the ability to grow in our relationship with God. God enables us to grow by giving us the Holy Spirit, which resides within us after accepting Jesus Christ.

Salvation allows us to have a personal relationship with God. Having a personal relationship with God gives us an inner peace as well. Also, with the power of the Holy Spirit we now have God within us to enable us to overcome sin and to do anything that is His will.

Christianity is not about “a system of ethics†it is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[Novum]

Heyas Nocturnal.

The main reason you need God is because you, like everyone else, were born into sin. Sin, is disobedience to God. The penalty of sin is death. Also, sin has separated us from God.

This is meaningless to anyone who is not a Christian already. It doesn't help me answer my question.

God, thankfully “became flesh†(John 1:14) in the form of Jesus Christ and died for our sins. When one repents, admits that they are a sinner and they need to be justified before God, and accepts Jesus Christ then they are justified before God. That basically means by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, Jesus takes our place and pays the dept of sin. Such an atonement free us form our sin nature and saves us from damnation, the second death.

You're just preaching to me now. I'm sorry, but this isn't helping me answer my question. Why should I care about Jesus in the first place? Again, the concept of sin is meaningless to anyone who is not already a Christian.

Along with that we are granted a personal relationship with God. Throughout our life, after becoming a Christian, we have the ability to grow in our relationship with God. God enables us to grow by giving us the Holy Spirit, which resides within us after accepting Jesus Christ.

Now you get closer to the topic. But why should I desire a personal relationship with your god? How do people grow through the Holy Spirit? Again, why should I care?

Salvation allows us to have a personal relationship with God. Having a personal relationship with God gives us an inner peace as well. Also, with the power of the Holy Spirit we now have God within us to enable us to overcome sin and to do anything that is His will.

I certainly find peace within myself as noted in the OP. But what other benefits does it bring?

Christianity is not about “a system of ethics†it is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Why, Nocturnal, why? Why should I desire this relationship? What does it bring me that I do not already have?

 

[AHIMSA]

My idea of God is very different than that of many people on this board, so I contend that one can know God without using any of that kind of language that we hear religious people express. (that is, knowing God outside of theism)

For me, God places me in a context much greater than myself. Through knowing myself I come to know him and everything that I am a part of, I come to know that which infinitely surpasses me, yet it is also this from which from I stem. Lastly, looking to God immerses me in a world of symbols and metaphors, generating my creativity, constantly renewing my sense of awe, and surrounding me in mysteries that I can never solve, yet can always revel in.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Given myself and the millions of others that live ethically without belief in a god, plus the billions of others that live ethically without belief in the Christian god, I must conclude that I should reject this point - it is not necessary to be a theist or a Christian to live ethically.

I actually believe your deduction is correct. There is a natural law, and people can be naturally meritorious. Super-naturally meritorious is where Christians generally draw the line, as they should, because that requires faith.

I just can't identify with that feeling. As an atheist, I know that this life is the only one I will ever get, so it has infinite value for me. I know that the only purpose in my life is the one that I set for myself, so I have taken it upon myself to work hard in university, attend graduate school, and secure for myself a satisfying, productive career. I have a great group of friends, a happy family, and some great relatives. If I find deficiencies or problems in my life, I must do my utmost to remedy them - again, because I know that this is the only life I'll ever get. There are no second chances for me.

The book of Ecclesiastes has a very similar message. Enjoy life, its the only one you get. All work you dont enjoy, its vanity.

Moreover, remember that our best science suggests that the universe has a finite lifespan.

Yes, Christianity echoes that sentiment as well. However, the part that doesnt jive with Christianity is the regeneration of all things.

There is only one point that I can come up with, and that is hope. The hope of an eternal life free from sickness, free from suffering. While I understand this does sound like it could get boring, there is also the leap of faith about God in general. The finite trying to comprehend something that is infinite. That would actually be interesting, and a fulfilling time spent, cause you can always increase, but there is still something to do. God says in the bible that he has come to heal the sick, not the well. There are people who genuinely feel they dont need a god. Its their choice. They will live, and then they will die, and there wont really be anything else except death. But for those who do need a god, they will find him, then they will have faith, and then they will live if they follow after. They will have hope.

Thats all I got on that one. You make several very valid points. Very well thought out and presented. Keep searching, and maybe you will find something more. Or maybe not. Who knows?

 

[Novum]

Very well said, belovedwolfofgod. Yours is the kind of response I was hoping to read.

 

[Klee shay]

Why do I need god, and why should I be a christian?

I cannot answer the "why do I NEED" part of your questions because ultimately what you need has to be worked out between you and God. My need of God will be different to yours and so on.

What I will suggest however, is that God is humanity's first father. As you would be aware, there have been many psychological studies into the effects of divorce on children - all of them outlining conflict within the individual child as a result. Not all that conflict is good nor is it all bad, but there is conflict nonetheless which the child has to later work out for themselves - hopefully with their parents' assistance.

Likewise, God is the father we have been separated from via divorce too. There is conflict in every child which needs to be worked out - not as a matter of if but when. An athiest's reaction is to reject God therefore denying the conflict within them. A christian's reaction is to try and work that conflict out with their first father.

If one day you get curious about the conflict you deny, then God will be there to help you work it out.

what benefits do I derive for myself by either believing in a god or becoming a christian?

That is different for every individual again. The benefits you derive depends on how much you want to trust God, and how much you give him of your life to work through with you.

The benefits I get from knowing God is that I never have to be alone when facing something I dread. Even if I feel alone, I'm not alone because I know from experience that he's pulled me away from many fears and many heartaches, so they would not end up destroying me. How is this possible? Because I trust in my first father not to abandon me and to sustain all that I need as his child. The things that I ended up needing were never obvious to me either, but it took my father to reveal them to me first to fully appreciate that I am more complete in this world with him than without him.

Perhaps you need to go without something in order to appreciate the gifts of God are perfect for sorrow?

1. Is it a system of morals and ethics? The ability to live ethically?

Every person regardless of religious preference knows that morals and ethics is what makes for happiness on the whole. Thinking about others as we think of ourselves creates a greater balance of fairness.

So whether Christian or Atheiest, we can all at least agree that morals and ethics is what makes us and society a much nicer place to live. Yes, there are those who abuse such morals and ethics in getting the message across, but does that mean we should throw out the "need" for morality and ethical behaviour all together? I think we could all agree again, that we don't.

So if you know that it's good to live ethically, why is it such a big stretch between what you understand and Christianity? My suggestion to you, is if you're striving to be a more ethical person, why restrict the influence of those who do speak many truths about humanity as well? It's okay to disagree with individuals on how they represent God's moral blueprint, but why reject the source? Do you not share the same desire as God to love one another, to demonstrate charity, forgiveness, and mercy?

Why make Him so removed from the concepts you already live by? It's your choice of course, God respects that, but I'm just posing the question.

2. Is it a purpose, a goal, a sense of direction?

Seeking God provides an individual with deeper insight into what they don't even know is their purpose, goal or direction in life. We think we know ourselves and can set our own ambitions, limitations, etc, but it's nothing to what God knows about unlocking our potential.

Until we go down the path of trusting God to reveal it to us, we are limited by our own knowledge. So even if a person did start believing for the specific reason of having a purpose, goal or sense of direction - they will ultimately be surprised how miniscule that ambition is. For God transforms lives by building better hearts.

The heart you have worked on so hard to get this far is suitable to do the job, but it's still limited. Limited by what? Your own understanding of who you are. Only God can unlock what you don't see.

3. Is it an afterlife?

I have thought about this one lately myself. I mean, do I deserve an afterlife? Why would I want an afterlife? Am I just afraid of death or am I really looking forward to something more?

At the end of the day, it's like what you say, we only have one life (here) that we can do the most with. Christianity to me isn't a means to an end - it's the end I want to begin with. I want to live as if each day was for all eternity and I could look back and say, I did that - I'm proud of that.

If you can't live each day here like it will last for all eternity, then how can you live with yourself in the afterlife when your deeds are rewarded?

Yes there is an afterlife which will last for all eternity, but how we live it depends on what we do here. If there is a father in heaven you don't know about, will denial help you live any better here than it will there (heaven)? God is offering you a treasure in heaven where everything you have achieved in his name will echo all throughout eternity, and you want to settle just for the here and now?

You're a braver man than I thought. :wink:

May God bless you with more spiritual wisdom than your ability to draw knowledgeable conclusions. This is the gift of life no-one fully understands but takes trust to accept it nonetheless. God bless friend. :D

 

[Novum]

Hey again Klee shay!

Likewise, God is the father we have been separated from via divorce too. There is conflict in every child which needs to be worked out - not as a matter of if but when.

This just doesn't have any meaning for non-Christians. I don't feel it's helping me answer my question.

An athiest's reaction is to reject God therefore denying the conflict within them. A christian's reaction is to try and work that conflict out with their first father.

We've been here before in other threads. It is simply incorrect for you to broadly claim that all atheists reject your god.

If one day you get curious about the conflict you deny, then God will be there to help you work it out.

You're coming across as a fair bit more smug than you have before. I don't like your new tone.

That is different for every individual again. The benefits you derive depends on how much you want to trust God, and how much you give him of your life to work through with you.

The benefits I get from knowing God is that I never have to be alone when facing something I dread. Even if I feel alone, I'm not alone because I know from experience that he's pulled me away from many fears and many heartaches, so they would not end up destroying me. How is this possible? Because I trust in my first father not to abandon me and to sustain all that I need as his child. The things that I ended up needing were never obvious to me either, but it took my father to reveal them to me first to fully appreciate that I am more complete in this world with him than without him.

Why should anyone be alone when facing something they dread? When I'm in that situation, I have my friends and family for support; moreover, they have not failed me in the past. I'm not seeing why a god is necessary for support when I have other means to accomplish the same thing.

Perhaps you need to go without something in order to appreciate the gifts of God are perfect for sorrow?

Go without something...? What? I really can't parse what you're saying here. Can you elaborate?

So if you know that it's good to live ethically, why is it such a big stretch between what you understand and Christianity?

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're suggesting. If I "know that it's good to live ethically" and if I already do live ethically, what is Christianity offering me?

My suggestion to you, is if you're striving to be a more ethical person, why restrict the influence of those who do speak many truths about humanity as well? It's okay to disagree with individuals on how they represent God's moral blueprint, but why reject the source? Do you not share the same desire as God to love one another, to demonstrate charity, forgiveness, and mercy?

Sure, I can agree with some of the desires you attribute to your god. But others - like the mere existence of hell, to say nothing of when he sends people there - are ethics that I cannot agree with.

Why make Him so removed from the concepts you already live by? It's your choice of course, God respects that, but I'm just posing the question.

But I don't believe any god exists. It's nonsensical to speak of "removing" a god from my life.

Seeking God provides an individual with deeper insight into what they don't even know is their purpose, goal or direction in life. We think we know ourselves and can set our own ambitions, limitations, etc, but it's nothing to what God knows about unlocking our potential.

Until we go down the path of trusting God to reveal it to us, we are limited by our own knowledge. So even if a person did start believing for the specific reason of having a purpose, goal or sense of direction - they will ultimately be surprised how miniscule that ambition is. For God transforms lives by building better hearts.

The heart you have worked on so hard to get this far is suitable to do the job, but it's still limited. Limited by what? Your own understanding of who you are. Only God can unlock what you don't see.

It is not true at all to say that I rely on my own understanding to get by. That's just self-centered. As I've mentioned before, I have my family, friends, and society as a whole to help give my life purpose and value. I question how my "purpose" would be different were I a Christian; I can't see how it would be.

At the end of the day, it's like what you say, we only have one life (here) that we can do the most with. Christianity to me isn't a means to an end - it's the end I want to begin with. I want to live as if each day was for all eternity and I could look back and say, I did that - I'm proud of that.

This I can agree with.

If you can't live each day here like it will last for all eternity, then how can you live with yourself in the afterlife when your deeds are rewarded?

Regardless of whether any deeds were rewarded or punished, I still don't find the concept of an afterlife appealing.

Yes there is an afterlife which will last for all eternity, but how we live it depends on what we do here. If there is a father in heaven you don't know about, will denial help you live any better here than it will there (heaven)? God is offering you a treasure in heaven where everything you have achieved in his name will echo all throughout eternity, and you want to settle just for the here and now?

So you say, but your claims here are meaningless to non-Christians. We've been here before. ;)

 

[Free]

This is just a quick response from work. I moved last Saturday and won't have the Internet connected until at least this Friday.

Never in my life have I appeared in court, had a traffic ticket, or ever been fined.

Does it necessarily follow that you are therefore living morally? If there is a higher being then you could very well be living immorally. If you define morality and ethics according to what you or some large group of people do and do not do, then you will always be able to claim you live a moral life.

The problem is this, as it is with most of your points in this thread, if you define everything based on yourself, you will always end up with yourself. This doesn't mean that you are therefore right to conclude that you don't need God or that he doesn't exist. He could very well exist and you could be wrong on all your points, you just haven't left any room for anything outside of yourself.

2. Is it a purpose, a goal, a sense of direction? Many Christians believe that their belief in god gives their life purpose and meaning, or that without their belief they would feel lost and helpless.

I believe that there is inherent purpose in life which is why I believe in God. Ultimately, without God life is utterly meaningless. You live, you die, and what you do in between is of no consequence. However, the purpose Christianity teaches about life is that what we believe now and what we do now affects where and possible how we will spend eternity.

I know that the only purpose in my life is the one that I set for myself, so I have taken it upon myself to work hard in university, attend graduate school, and secure for myself a satisfying, productive career. I have a great group of friends, a happy family, and some great relatives.

Which is utterly meaningless, apart from an afterlife based on what one believes.

But what if we have the wrong idea about the afterlife - what if you are destined to live forever as a worm or beetle?

If we had the wrong idea about the afterlife, then we probably wouldn't have an idea about the afterlife.

Moreover, remember that our best science suggests that the universe has a finite lifespan. If you are truly immortal, that means you'll still be around long after the universe is a cold dead pile of mushy matter. That fate sounds, to be honest, rather horrible.

And the Bible also states the the universe is finite, at least the way it is now. But it also states that everything will be made new. If you want to argue the biblical view of the afterlife then you must include all of it when coming to a conclusion, not just a part.

The concept of an afterlife just doesn't appear attractive to me.

But yet you stated that "I will freely admit that these two thoughts - being able to live forever...certainly is attractive. In other words, you find the thought of being able to live forever in an admittedly decaying universe is attractive but you don't find the concept of an afterlife in a renewed universe attractive. How does that work?

 

[thessalonian]

The child who was orphaned and then adopted many times someday wants to find out who his real parents were. Why? He would hope that they would love him and that he could love them. This does not always turn out to be the case with people sad to say but with the perfect God it always happens perfectly. You should truly want to know if there is a God and search him out because he is the reason that you are. He is the reason that you have. He is the reason that the sun shines in the morning and the rains bring water to the plants and animals that provide you food. "In him we live and move and have our being". He is the reason there are other people in your life who love you. We seek out God and love him because he loved us first and is deserving of our love and thankfulness in return. The benefit of discovering God is in discovering who you are. To no longer be an orphan. To know love in it's fullest sense. God is love and we cannot know true love until we know God.

Blessings

 

[fatboyluis]

hmmm,

to me it got to a point where i had to make a choice, either all this Christian stuff is all true or its just all rubbish, i chose to believe in Christianity,

the things that helped me choose was how it started (Christianity) to where it has come to, starting with a few men, the apostles, to where it has come to.

i mean suppose God created the world, wouldnt He have the power and the love needed to keep u satisfied forever,

also another thing that helped me, is when i wake up i look around and ask myself, what have i done to deserve all this? my bed, my house, my clothes, my life, my things, to be born into a country with relative peace.

im really tired at the moment and will post some new things later but i hope if only one thing i said would help,

God Bless

 

[ArtGuy]

I recognize in advance that this isn't going to be a satisfying answer, so I apologize. But this is my perspective, so I'm offering it up.

I see asking "Why should I be a Christian?" much the same as asking "Why should I believe that the speed of light is constant?" You should accept Christianity because it's true.

I often see that question posed, and it carries with it the connotation that there are a dozen equally valid religious choices, and whichever one you choose will be just as true as any other. If you decide to be Christian, then Christianity is correct, but if you opt to be a Muslim instead, then the Koran is a true account, and so on. It presupposes that Christians just pick whatever religion sounds the coolest, and decide to believe that.

If I was going to just pick a religion based on what sounded best, I would just make up my own. It would include Santa Claus, there would be no Hell, and there would also be lots of rituals that involved eating cheesecake. I didn't choose Christianity because it sounded keen, I chose it because it was what felt true to me. Just as I accept math because it seems true to me. If I somehow became convinced that Christianity was a lie, I would no longer be a Christian.

I suppose, then, the answer to the question "Why should I be a Christian?" is "Because you looked into your heart and found it to be true." I don't think that's really the sort of answer you were hoping for, but it's what I believe to be the most accurate answer. Anything else reduces choosing your religious affiliation to the same level as shopping for a car.

 

[Novum]

Does it necessarily follow that you are therefore living morally? If there is a higher being then you could very well be living immorally.

No, of course it doesn't necessarily follow. I'm merely offering anecdotal evidence that hopefully supports my point. We could certainly have a discussion on non-religious ethics and religious ethics, but that's probably best for another thread.

If you define morality and ethics according to what you or some large group of people do and do not do, then you will always be able to claim you live a moral life.

When and where have I ever stated anything even remotely like this?

The problem is this, as it is with most of your points in this thread, if you define everything based on yourself, you will always end up with yourself. This doesn't mean that you are therefore right to conclude that you don't need God or that he doesn't exist. He could very well exist and you could be wrong on all your points, you just haven't left any room for anything outside of yourself.

No. This is your strawman, not mine. I am an agnostic atheist, which means that I am fully open to the possibility that a god does exist. If evidence comes along, I will certainly re-evaluate my position. I recognize that I could be wrong.

Is the reverse true for you? Are you open to the possibility that no gods exist? I find it unlikely...

I believe that there is inherent purpose in life which is why I believe in God. Ultimately, without God life is utterly meaningless. You live, you die, and what you do in between is of no consequence.

Another enormous strawman and argument from incredulity. Simply because you yourself cannot comprehend a meaningful life without your god does not make it so.

Which is utterly meaningless, apart from an afterlife based on what one believes.

Continued argument from incredulity. If you're willing to put aside your premature judgment and logical fallacies, I'd certainly be willing to write more about this subject.

If we had the wrong idea about the afterlife, then we probably wouldn't have an idea about the afterlife.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Can you elaborate?

And the Bible also states the the universe is finite, at least the way it is now. But it also states that everything will be made new. If you want to argue the biblical view of the afterlife then you must include all of it when coming to a conclusion, not just a part.

Perhaps you could elaborate on what exactly is "made new", how it is "made new", and the consequences of it being "made new"?

But yet you stated that "I will freely admit that these two thoughts - being able to live forever...certainly is attractive.

Sure. At first glance, they appear attractive. Further analysis leads me to conclude otherwise.

In other words, you find the thought of being able to live forever in an admittedly decaying universe is attractive but you don't find the concept of an afterlife in a renewed universe attractive. How does that work?

I'm not sure where you got this from. I never stated that being able to live forever, regardless of the nature of the universe, is attractive. I believe I very explicitly stated just the opposite.

 

[Novum]

Just as I accept math because it seems true to me.

A minor nitpick: I hope this isn't why you accept math.

Math works because it's built on a solid set of axioms. With enough knowledge about theoretical mathematics, you could derive for yourself the same set of axioms without taking anything from any other source. From addition on up, it all works because each increasingly complex concept is based on one or more simpler ones.

I suppose, in the end, it "seems true" because it is entirely transparent. If you wanted to know why 2 + 2 = 4 is true, all you need to do is study set theory and you can derive for yourself a definition of arithmetic. Anyone can, in theory, do it.

I suppose, then, the answer to the question "Why should I be a Christian?" is "Because you looked into your heart and found it to be true." I don't think that's really the sort of answer you were hoping for, but it's what I believe to be the most accurate answer. Anything else reduces choosing your religious affiliation to the same level as shopping for a car.

I understand what you're saying, but it still seems to me like we could make this argument for any religion. I don't think there's any doubt that, if we had the time and resources, we could visit the Islamic nation of your choice, line up thousands upon thousands of residents, and hear "I accept Islam because I looked into my heart and found it to be true" repeated thousands of times.

 

[ArtGuy]

Just as I accept math because it seems true to me.

A minor nitpick: I hope this isn't why you accept math.

Math works because it's built on a solid set of axioms. With enough knowledge about theoretical mathematics, you could derive for yourself the same set of axioms without taking anything from any other source. From addition on up, it all works because each increasingly complex concept is based on one or more simpler ones.

I suppose, in the end, it "seems true" because it is entirely transparent. If you wanted to know why 2 + 2 = 4 is true, all you need to do is study set theory and you can derive for yourself a definition of arithmetic. Anyone can, in theory, do it.

Well, at the end of the day, I think math is true because everything I know about it points to it being true. Other experts say it's true, it works in my own experience, and so on. If, tomorrow, I added two apples to the two apples I already had and suddenly had five of them, I'd reconsider. Until then, math seems kosher.

Religious belief is subtly different in that it's very personal in nature. Perhaps a better analogy would be that I know Christianity is true in the same manner I know it's true that my wife loves me. I see the evidence for it, and I feel it in my heart.

I understand what you're saying, but it still seems to me like we could make this argument for any religion. I don't think there's any doubt that, if we had the time and resources, we could visit the Islamic nation of your choice, line up thousands upon thousands of residents, and hear "I accept Islam because I looked into my heart and found it to be true" repeated thousands of times.

That's true, and that's where faith comes in. Religion isn't a strictly analytical endeavor, and you need to ultimately go with what feels right. I know that many people believe they're possessed by evil spirits with the same fervor with which I believe that Christ is the savior. I know, rationally, that Christians could all be deluding themselves, and the whole thing could be a sham. But that doesn't feel, to me, to be the case.

At the end of the day, you can't rely on reason alone to convince someone to subscribe to a certain set of religious beliefs. Going on reason alone, all you can do is endorse agnosticism. Anything else requires a leap of faith. I mean, I could tell you that you should be a Christian because Christians are mostly good people, and that you get a wonderful feeling by giving yourself to Christ. I could tell you that you should be a Christian because Jesus died for your sins, and it's only fair for you to give something in return. All these things are true, but none of them are going to convince a reasonably intelligent atheist that he should convert if he doesn't have the inclination to do so.

 

[Klee shay]

Hey again Klee shay!

Nice to catch up with you again. :D

Likewise, God is the father we have been separated from via divorce too. There is conflict in every child which needs to be worked out - not as a matter of if but when.

This just doesn't have any meaning for non-Christians. I don't feel it's helping me answer my question.

Not now perhaps. Maybe never? I have to put it out there however as my way of explaining "why" people choose to pursue someone they can't see or touch. The conflict a person feels within isn't always down to a quantifiable sum of this world.

As a non-Christian that may not help answer your questions either, but if you're asking about a spiritual pursuit expect to receive a spiritual answer. :wink:

An athiest's reaction is to reject God therefore denying the conflict within them. A christian's reaction is to try and work that conflict out with their first father.

We've been here before in other threads. It is simply incorrect for you to broadly claim that all atheists reject your god.

It is true; as you have explained to me previously in another discussion, that personal rejection of God can differ on many levels with an athiest. It is still rejection nonetheless, only different levels of it.

Or are you claiming that an athiest accepts God like a Christian does?

If one day you get curious about the conflict you deny, then God will be there to help you work it out.

You're coming across as a fair bit more smug than you have before. I don't like your new tone.

I don't mean to sound smug; it certainly wasn't the motivation I was using. You raised this discussion with what appeared to be an earnest request for why you should become a Christian and accept God. I respect your freedom to choose whether you believe in God or not; "if one day you get curious", was the only context in which I made the suggestion God will be there to help you.

Why should anyone be alone when facing something they dread?

Why is there a mental health crisis in nearly every 1st World country? Why are suicide rates climbing? Why do women handle domestic violence on their own, instead of speaking out about their abuse?

Whether you can appreciate it or not, there are many people in this wonderful world of ours who indeed feel they are on their own. Life creates the psychological programming in which psychologists try to get an indivdual to understand and unravel...but who has the power to mend a broken spirit?

When I'm in that situation, I have my friends and family for support; moreover, they have not failed me in the past. I'm not seeing why a god is necessary for support when I have other means to accomplish the same thing.

Then lets hope that "other means" never fails you or you will truly be on your own.

Perhaps you need to go without something in order to appreciate the gifts of God are perfect for sorrow?

Go without something...? What? I really can't parse what you're saying here. Can you elaborate?

Let me make myself clear first of all. I wasn't being literal, as in, you MUST go without something. It was a rhetorical question, as in, perhaps if you went without something it would be easier to understand...???

For example, imagine the thing you love most in this world - the one thing you could not live without. If you suddenly lost it what would you do with your sorrow? Work it out perhaps? Yes, you'd give it your best shot...but what happens when your best efforts doesn't make the sorrow go away?

God's gifts help us bridge the gap between what we can change and what we can't - especially when we feel powerless.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're suggesting. If I "know that it's good to live ethically" and if I already do live ethically, what is Christianity offering me?

Christianity isn't offering you anything. You have been misled if this is what you thought Christianity did. What I was demonstrating was how small the difference was (if any) between what you believe is ethical and what God teaches is ethical.

God is the one who offers you anything if you choose to accept that he exists.

Sure, I can agree with some of the desires you attribute to your god. But others - like the mere existence of hell, to say nothing of when he sends people there - are ethics that I cannot agree with.

Is hell ethical? Is heaven ethical? Perhaps they just are, like you're male and I am female. We do not thave to be ethical people but we choose to be. Likewise, God doesn't have to be ethical but he wrote the ethical encyclopedia which humanity doesn't even know about yet - is it possible for him to be unethical?

I don't like the thought that hell exists either or even that some may even have to go there; but I don't judge God by the fact hell exists. I judge God by the Spirit that I know effects my life in positive ways. I have also seen him turn people that society had rejected, into wonderful tools of love. If you really want to know what lies behind the concept of hell, then perhaps you should get to know the one who created not only hell but heaven as well.

Judging one part of God without knowing the other, is an unbalanced assessment.

But I don't believe any god exists. It's nonsensical to speak of "removing" a god from my life.

If this is true Novum, then why start this discussion?

It is not true at all to say that I rely on my own understanding to get by. That's just self-centered. As I've mentioned before, I have my family, friends, and society as a whole to help give my life purpose and value. I question how my "purpose" would be different were I a Christian; I can't see how it would be.

You cannot see it simply because you've never lived it and you have no desire to understand what you don't see or understand. If you have a problem trusting what you can't see or understand, I am not surprised by the the emptiness you associate with Christian life.

It isnt' a Christian's reponsibility to convert you or open your eyes to the way we live. That would be forcing you against your will and not even God tries to force us against our wills. If you have a desire to seek God then you will find him. If the desire is not there - if God is not real to you; then how can a Christian change your mind.

Again, I ask, why start this discussion if you have no intention to even consider God is real?

Regardless of whether any deeds were rewarded or punished, I still don't find the concept of an afterlife appealing.

Then I must ask if you even find the concept of this life appealing? Bear in mind it's a serious question, I'm not trying to be smug, LOL. :wink:

your claims here are meaningless to non-Christians. We've been here before. ;)

You may not have seen the seeds yet, but you will when they blossom. :D

 

[thessalonian]

I was driving to my boys party at school today and noticed the beautiful lialacs on the side of the road. My mind started thinking about all the beautiful flowers in the world and how brightly colored they are. Did this get colored by accident. Did a bunch of green and brown flowers happen and they just died off because they couldn't attract bees to polinate them and get the recipricol benefit of nector? Why would the flower even think about attracting the bee anyway? How could the two come together in the amazingly complimentary manner? A bird flew accross the car and I started imagining hundreds of lizards jumping off cliffs to their grave until one came along that had the right curvature in his arms and was able to glide to the ground. Hopefully they would not go extinct before this amazing genetic mutation took place or it would be another 100 million years before it happened again. They kept gliding until wouldn't you know it one sprouted feathers and he found he could fly. Of course then he had the problem of finding another lizard who could fly to mate with. Being the first he might have died off before this happened and the next such lizard wouldn't come around for another 10 million years. If he was lucky another might sprout feathers at that time. Thinking about all of this I simply have to ask. Why God? Why NOT! All creation cries out to the glory of God. We simply have to open our eyes.

 

[Novum]

I was driving to my boys party at school today and noticed the beautiful lialacs on the side of the road. My mind started thinking about all the beautiful flowers in the world and how brightly colored they are. Did this get colored by accident. Did a bunch of green and brown flowers happen and they just died off because they couldn't attract bees to polinate them and get the recipricol benefit of nector? Why would the flower even think about attracting the bee anyway? How could the two come together in the amazingly complimentary manner? A bird flew accross the car and I started imagining hundreds of lizards jumping off cliffs to their grave until one came along that had the right curvature in his arms and was able to glide to the ground. Hopefully they would not go extinct before this amazing genetic mutation took place or it would be another 100 million years before it happened again. They kept gliding until wouldn't you know it one sprouted feathers and he found he could fly. Of course then he had the problem of finding another lizard who could fly to mate with. Being the first he might have died off before this happened and the next such lizard wouldn't come around for another 10 million years. If he was lucky another might sprout feathers at that time. Thinking about all of this I simply have to ask. Why God? Why NOT! All creation cries out to the glory of God. We simply have to open our eyes.

You posted this in another thread as well. Just as ArtGuy said there, I'll say here: You demonstrate, thessalonian, a woeful ignorance about the process of evolution.

I caution forum readers against taking this passage seriously.

 

[thessalonian]

Novum,

Ah, a personal attack. Disdain for someone who disagrees with you? I have none for you? You are made in God's image and likeness, albeit in a fallen state.

It was tongue in cheek. Lighten up. I am quite aware of how evolution is supposed to work. I knew exactly what I was saying and if you go back to that other thread you'll see why. But you do like to portray us Christians as ignorant don't you. Fools I believe you might call us. Even if evolution is true ( I do believe interspecies might be), I can't see how it could all happen by accident. How all the complex equations and processes that guide nature could exist without a higher intelligence. All the equations of physics and math. The amazing chemisty that keeps a tree green when cholophyll is an incredibly unstable molecule. First you have to have some organic material, then that organic material somehow get's some chlorophyll in it and Wala a plant? Opps no roots yet. :-? The preciseness of the earth's distance from the sun that allows it to support life with the right climate, atmosphere, and chemicals that form the building blocks of life. The interaction between various forms of life supporting one another and the delicate balance that we humans many times disrupt. It is all really quite delicate yet it continues to thrive.

I have an electrical engineering degree. In microelectronics there were some constants that we just took for granted in some quite comple equations that gave us the characteristics of the diodes and transistors we were working with. Then I took a graduate course in microelectronics and discovered that not only were the equations we were working with complex but there were equations for the constants that we took for granted that were very complex. Man created none of this. He only discovered what existed in nature and used it. Only the very brightest of men are able to discover these things and open them up so that we can use them. The numbers of these complex equations accross disciplines such as chemical, geological, electrical, mechanical, and other engineering disciplines is vast. If there ain't a higher intelligence out there then I don't exist and you are imagining that you are reading the letters I am typing. Maybe you don't even exist? How scientific is that. :-? More tongue in cheek. No need to try and paint me as some nutcase.

My impression of you is that you are an educated man Novum. Many aethists I guess are. Don't know your background but it really puzzles me when educated people become aethists. Perhaps it is pride in their own thinking. I have a friend at work with a PHD who is and agnostic. It is the above regarding complex equations that keeps him from embracing aethism . He like me cannot see how such complexity could exist in a universe without some sort of higher intelligence responsible for it. He still has not grasped the simplicity of the Christian God however as a possible solution.


Blessings

 

[Novum]

Ah, a personal attack. Disdain for someone who disagrees with you? I have none for you? You are in God's image and likeness.

I have no disdain for you, but I do react poorly to misrepresentations of science.

It was tongue in cheek. Lighten up. I am quite aware of how evolution is supposed to work. I knew exactly what I was saying and if you go back to that other thread you'll see why.

I have gone back and I'm still not quite sure why you posted what you did. If you knew it was wrong, why would you pass it off as correct?

But you do like to portray us Christians as ignorant don't you. Fools I believe you might call us.

I have said no such thing. Don't put words in my mouth.

Even if evolution is true ( I do believe interspecies might be), I can't see how it could all happen by accident. How all the complex equations and processes that guide nature could exist without a higher intelligence. All the equations of physics and math. The amazing chemisty that keeps a tree green when cholophyll is an incredibly unstable molecule. First you have to have some organic material, then that organic material somehow get's some chlorophyll in it and Wala a plant? Opps no roots yet. :-? The preciseness of the earth's distance from the sun that allows it to support life with the right climate, atmosphere, and chemicals that form the building blocks of life. The interaction between various forms of life supporting one another and the delicate balance that we humans many times disrupt. It is all really quite delicate yet it continues to thrive.

One long, drawn out, logical fallacy: argument from incredulity. We've been here before. If you did understand evolution as you claim you do, I can't see how you would be asking these questions.

I have an electrical engineering degree. In microelectronics there were some constants that we just took for granted in some quite comple equations that gave us the characteristics of the diodes and transistors we were working with. Then I took a graduate course in microelectronics and discovered that not only were the equations we were working with complex but there were equations for the constants that we took for granted that were very complex. Man created none of this. He only discovered what existed in nature and used it. Only the very brightest of men are able to discover these things and open them up so that we can use them. The numbers of these complex equations accross disciplines such as chemical, geological, electrical, mechanical, and other engineering disciplines is vast.

I'm fine up to here, but...

If there ain't a higher intelligence out there then I don't exist and you are imagining that you are reading the letters I am typing. Maybe you don't even exist? How scientific is that. :-?

...this is possibly the biggest non-sequitur I've ever seen.

More tongue in cheek. No need to try and paint me as some nutcase.

Is that what you think I've been doing? Why do you throw out all these logical fallacies, even if they're intended as jokes, if you know they're wrong?

My impression of you is that you are an educated man Novum. Many aethists I guess are. Don't know your background but it really puzzles me when educated people become aethists.

A number of studies have shown - and continue to show - that more intelligent people (as measured by IQ, SAT score, highest level of education achieved, etc) tend to be less religious. Here's a link to a page that pulls literally dozens of these studies together and shows some broader trends.

Perhaps it is pride in their own thinking.

What do you mean by this?

I have a friend at work with a PHD who is and agnostic. It is the above regarding complex equations that keeps him from embracing aethism . He like me cannot see how such complexity could exist in a universe without some sort of higher intelligence responsible for it.

Then he's also bordering on argument from incredulity. ;)