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emmauk007
Guest
I would be interested to know what people think about this topic? Iam sure we all believe that God is Love. In line with that scripture what are your viewpoints as to why there is so much pain in the world today?
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Paidion
Guest
I think most excruciating suffering is caused by man's inhumanity to man. The primary way in which man was created in God's image was the imparting of a free will to man. For this reason, I think God has a great respect for everyone's free will, and thus seldom interferes with man's carrying out his own will, whether his acts are good or evil.
S
Silver Bullet
Guest
Paidion said:
Why would God respect the will of a mass murderer to murder? We wouldn't - we would surely stop a mass murderer if we could, and many Christians would advocate stopping a mass murderer with capital punishment (another murder).
If respecting free will is that important to God, shouldn't those who follow God try to equally respect it, and never (or seldomly) interfere with anybody's sinister will? After all, the evil-doer will eventually get his or her ultimate judgement. If God permits the suffering that occurs along his/her evil path, why shouldn't we?
What I'm saying is that if its ok for God to let humans commit the most awful attrocities (Hitler murdering millions of innocent people), why do we not consider it ok to let humans commit the most awful attrocities?
S
savagesoto
Guest
I agree...without the darkness we could never see or appreciate the lightAdullam said:
that is another reason why I dont think "hell" is eternal
S
savagesoto
Guest
But as I recall:Jon-Marc said:
Isaiah 45:7 (New International Version)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
If im not mistaken, God has something to do with it.
P
Paidion
Guest
These are great questions, Silver Bullet, and about all I can say is that we who take steps to stop evil actions also have free will to do so, and God respects that. Indeed, I suspect that this is the main way in which God does deter evil actions --- inspiring those who oppose the evil doers with means of prevention.
You may consider this a copout, but I actually believe that all the good which is manifested through mankind has its origin in God.
I recall a teacher-group participating in a simulation. There was some great danger to people on an island. So a small group went to persuade everyone to leave. All coöperated except one person. He refused to leave. The question was posed. Should we force that person to leave and so save his life? 9 out of 10 people in our group (including me) believed the morally right thing to do was force that person to leave, for by so doing, we would save his life. But one person disagreed. She believed that respecting the free will of the person took precedence over saving his life. At the time, I thought her position was morally wrong. But now, I am no longer as certain.
When my teenage son was in and out of the hospital with cancer and chemo effects, we got to know many of the other children and their parents. There was one boy in particular who comes to mind now. He had leukemia and eventually died at age 11. His parents were faith-filled Christians and prominent citizens in our community. The community prayed and suffered right along with his parents as they watched his condition worsen. During their son's battle with cancer, the boy's parents started a special health-related ministry in the community. Without this ministry, many people's lives would not have been touched at all.
While I sometimes get angry at the sufferings of the innocent, I am reminded of another innocent One who also suffered for a cause. His Father watched as His only Son anguished for many.
While I sometimes get angry at the sufferings of the innocent, I am reminded of another innocent One who also suffered for a cause. His Father watched as His only Son anguished for many.
Vic C.
Member
... and you answered yourself before you made this statement when you said:savagesoto said:
God chooses many ways to 1) Glorify Himself and 2) reveal that glory to all of His creation, especially mankind. Without that Glory (the light) all we would know is darkness.
Sometimes we must go through that valley of shadows and darkness to finally bask in His Light. Suffering brings forth purification. Jesus suffered in death, so that we may be purified through His blood and resurrection. ]
So too do we suffer sometimes... as the verse in my siggy suggests.
S
Silver Bullet
Guest
Paidion said:
Paidion,
Let me start by just saying how much I appreciate your always thoughtful and clear responses.
You are correct: I certainly do think your response is a copout, and here's why: On one hand, you’re saying that God loves us and respects our free will so much that He doesn’t even interfere with the free will of murderers to inflict unspeakable attrocities. On on the other hand, you are saying that God does interfere with the free will of those who do good by inspiring them to prevent evil. He must be influencing people to do good if he is, as you have said, the source of all good.
Well how can you have it both ways? Either he respects free will enough to not interfere, or he doesn't, no?!
If he’s going to interfere by inspiring someone to stop evil, why doesn’t he interfere to inspire the evil doer not to perform the evil in the first place and spare the innocent victim?
We respect the will of someone to perform an act of goodness more than we respect the will of someone to perform an evil act because that is fair and just. You’re saying that God respects the will of the evil doer more because he won't interfere with his will, and that he respects the will of the good person less because he does interfere with his will. How can such a God be just?
You also seem to be changing the subject by mentioning that all good originates from God, which seems like a very convenient position to put God in. You're basically saying is that:
1. Everything good originates in God (so no good can really come from man)
2. Everything bad originates in man (so no evil can come from God)
This is quite a situation to say we are in when you can't possibly know with certainty that God even exists.
Furthermore, absolutely anything can be rationalized in this way, so I don't see how it adds to our moral or ethical explanation or understanding of anything. A man can rape 2 year old girls everyday for the rest of his days and the conclusion is that he is evil and that God is purely good. This despite God completely respecting this pedophile's free will to perform the abject and unspeakable horrors that those girls will be scarred with all of their lives more than he respects the lives of those innocent little girls. Isn't that one diabolically immoral way for God to balance his love of all people?
Paidion said:
The moral question here is which takes precedent: the sanctity of life or personal autonomy. You are a wonderful enigma Paidion, for I would have thought that you would have no struggle whatsoever with this question.
I look forward to your thoughtful response and comments.
Best,
SB
emmauk,
This is the mystery of evil: ultimately we cannot say why God allows evil to exist; the Bible doesn't reveal that.
You have unwittingly provided a significant part of the answer to your arguments. Evil comes into the world through man. But God's solution to evil is for His work to be done through man. Do you see the problem? Man is supposed to be a part of the solution for evil but we are very much a part of the problem.
This is the mystery of evil: ultimately we cannot say why God allows evil to exist; the Bible doesn't reveal that.
It is morally wrong to commit murder (and capital punishment isn't murder). We only have this life to stop a mass murderer while God will judge "him" when he's dead. God allows someone to murder but they answer for it in the end; they don't get away with it.Silver Bullet said:
You have unwittingly provided a significant part of the answer to your arguments. Evil comes into the world through man. But God's solution to evil is for His work to be done through man. Do you see the problem? Man is supposed to be a part of the solution for evil but we are very much a part of the problem.
K
kingdavid
Guest
it was in God to be a saviour, redeemer, healer, to be humble and many other attributes which he would not have been able to express had man remained perfect and not fallen.
R
Rick W
Guest
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
We're no longer under God's care and protection by default as Adam was when he walked with God. We've been cast out of the Garden for by pride we rebel against God and prefer to be the sole designers of our existence and the masters of our fate.
I can't blame God for something the heart of man has done.
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
We're no longer under God's care and protection by default as Adam was when he walked with God. We've been cast out of the Garden for by pride we rebel against God and prefer to be the sole designers of our existence and the masters of our fate.
I can't blame God for something the heart of man has done.
P
Paidion
Guest
Silver Bullet said:
Yes, God is influencing people to do good. Influence is quite a different activity from interfering with free will. When our children were teens, we tried to influence them to make good choices. But we didn’t interfere with their free will by preventing them from doing wrong.
I don’t have it both ways. He respects free will enough to not interfere.
I think He sometimes does touch the hearts of evil doers. But as free will agents, they can either respond appropriately or continue in their evil ways. The same with those who have experienced God, and through Him have been generally victorious over evil, and who give themselves to serve needy and suffering people. Some of those good, altruistic people have turned against God, and have done evil acts.
Nikki Cruz was a gang leader who had been responsible for many murders and crimes. But God touched his conscience. He had difficulty sleeping. When David Wilkerson approached him to turn his life over to Christ, he held a knife to David’s throat, threatening to kill him. David didn’t flinch. A few more encounters with David, and Nikki did become a disciple of Christ and began serving the Lord Jesus. I, personally, was privileged to hear him speak. Hundreds from his audience came forward to give their lives to Christ.
No, I’m not saying that He interferes with anyone's will, good or bad. I’m saying that He influences people to do good, and that He actually enables Christ’s disciples to do so. That enablement, according to the apostle Paul, is the very purpose of Christ’s death.
No. That statement is very much the same subject, as I have explained above.
I have indeed said #1. Good does come from man, but in an indirect fashion. I’m sure that many people feel as if the good they do originates with themselves, and are unaware of God’s influence..
Pretty much. It is possible that, as God influences people to do good, so Satan or demonic forces may influence people to do evil. But of course, I don’t go so far as to excuse evil actions with the words, “The devil made me do it.†Nothwithstanding, I think there is a measure of truth in the statement, in that evil forces are an influence. Yet, ultimately, everyone is responsible for his own behaviour, whether that behaviour is good or evil.
Those who have experience Him know with certainty. If I tried to explain what a television set was to a remote bushman who had never experienced one, I would be unable to do it. He might think I was crazy, and express his doubts that television even exists. But if I showed him a television in operation so that he experienced it, then he would know. I can fully understand why some people doubt the existence of God. But I’ve known many who have doubted, who later gave their lives to Christ. After that direct experience with Christ, their doubts immediately vanished.
I think I understand why you think God, if He exists, should intervene. That ‘s the great problem of evil over which man has debated for millennia. If I had the complete answer, I would certainly share it at this point. I would also probably be recognized the world over for coming up with a solution to an age-old problem which had never before been solved. But no, I am not that brilliant.
I have offered a partial solution, which is only partially satisfying. That partial solution is:
1. God very highly respects the free will He has imparted to man, and seldom intervenes in man’s affairs.
2. God does not take action which would upset the delilcate balance of nature in its complexity, and so seldom intervenes in man’s affairs.
3. God acts in this world mainly through His people.
So this is all I have to offer. If I did not believe that these three points are true, I would probably be a Deist rather than a Christian.
S
Silver Bullet
Guest
As always, thanks to you Paidion.
I will mull it over.
I must say that for all this complex discussion including words like "free will", "interfere", and "influence", what it seem to boil down to (and you must by now know that I like to boil things down to help me understand them - you're probably much smarter than I am) is this:
It does not make sense that God intervenes to cause all good, but doesn't intervene to stop evil. It is especially troublesome that he intervenes to cause good but does not intervene to prevent the suffering caused by evil against the innocent, especially children and genuinely good people, because there seems to be no justice in that (and we, who are capable of nothing but evil without God, can appreciate that so readily)
Additionally, I remain bewildered by the fact that the inability to solve the problem of evil does not cause believers to seriously doubt their faith in a benevolent and all powerful God.
Cheers,
SB
I will mull it over.
I must say that for all this complex discussion including words like "free will", "interfere", and "influence", what it seem to boil down to (and you must by now know that I like to boil things down to help me understand them - you're probably much smarter than I am) is this:
It does not make sense that God intervenes to cause all good, but doesn't intervene to stop evil. It is especially troublesome that he intervenes to cause good but does not intervene to prevent the suffering caused by evil against the innocent, especially children and genuinely good people, because there seems to be no justice in that (and we, who are capable of nothing but evil without God, can appreciate that so readily)
Additionally, I remain bewildered by the fact that the inability to solve the problem of evil does not cause believers to seriously doubt their faith in a benevolent and all powerful God.
Cheers,
SB
I believe there would be less confusion on this issue if we quoted the King James Bible rather than the NIV which is entirely wrong in its translation of Isaiah 45:7.
KJV says:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So that's the LORD saying He creates evil.
So certainly God isn't afraid to take responsibility for evil.
Which is more than can be said for us, given that we allow our own Governments to get away with murder, rape, theft and torture (such as in Iraq or Afghanistan), or mass-murder at home for political ends (9/11 or 7/7) - while we pretend it's all for the best and that we're doing the "right thing". God is honest. We are not.
Maybe people could, for a start, consider not projecting their own hatreds and fears onto media-enhanced bogeymen such as Muslims or Hitler. Then they might instead learn to recognize and analyze evil much closer to home wherever it occurs.
KJV says:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So that's the LORD saying He creates evil.
So certainly God isn't afraid to take responsibility for evil.
Which is more than can be said for us, given that we allow our own Governments to get away with murder, rape, theft and torture (such as in Iraq or Afghanistan), or mass-murder at home for political ends (9/11 or 7/7) - while we pretend it's all for the best and that we're doing the "right thing". God is honest. We are not.
Maybe people could, for a start, consider not projecting their own hatreds and fears onto media-enhanced bogeymen such as Muslims or Hitler. Then they might instead learn to recognize and analyze evil much closer to home wherever it occurs.