Why is "faith" so important?

[Sothenes]

And if such a rational basis could be had, you'd think we'd have come across it in 2000 years of trying. ;)

There are ten manuscripts copied about 1,000 years after Julius Ceasar wrote them but no one disputes that Julius Ceasar existed. The manuscript evidence for the Bible is much much better than that.

The Bible is entirely true because of fulfilled prophecy, true because of its preservation, true because of transformed lives, and true because of archaeological proof.

 

[Novum]

There are ten manuscripts copied about 1,000 years after Julius Ceasar wrote them but no one disputes that Julius Ceasar existed.

You're aware there's more evidence than just those 10 documents...right?

The manuscript evidence for the Bible is much much better than that.

If the evidence is as good as you suggest, then why is there so much doubt about the truth of the bible?

The Bible is entirely true because of fulfilled prophecy

Nostradamus, among others, has been interpreted to do the same.

true because of its preservation,

Same goes for Julius Caesar's documents or the uncountable masses of other historic writings.

true because of transformed lives,

Same goes for inspirational novels, powerful storytellers, and so on.

and true because of archaeological proof.

Same goes for ancient Greece, dinosaurs, and everything else we've ever dug up. I'm sorry, but if these are the best reasons you can come up with, your bible is entirely unremarkable.

You also did not answer my question about the scientific method.

 

[Sothenes]

If the evidence is as good as you suggest, then why is there so much doubt about the truth of the bible?

Novum, I've been witnessing for over 20 years and people make stuff up about the Bible because they don't want to accept the Bible and not because they necessarily have any valid evidence. People don't want God to have any claim on their lives so they fight.

 

[Sothenes]

You also did not answer my question about the scientific method.

I didn't see a question. I saw a statement which said:

"Yup, that's about how science works. What's the problem?"

I think I need a little more than that to figure out what you want.

 

[Klee shay]

Something "good" or something "bad" is testable. You can see it, taste it, smell it, hold it in your hand, etc. . . . Also, there's a person's own interpretation of what is good or bad. But it is still something testable.

Faith in a Being who can't be tested is what I'm talking about. See my post above this one.

Who says you cannot test God in His promises? Believing you can't test God is limiting your exposure to Him.

Why is it so much of a "divinely great" thing to believe in something that is without proof, which can't be seen, touched, . . or anything? How does believing that this all happened, back 2000 years ago, make a person actually worthy enough to experience the "joy of Heaven"?

BINGO! :D

God is a living God. Believing in the things past is not the joy of the future things unseen. The joy is in experiencing the living God today.

 

[reznwerks]

outside

I believe the healings demonstrated by Jesus were very real. There are real testimonies from people who have had their sight restored by having faith in the Lord. Having hands laid upon and opening and seeing. These are real, documented cases, and they aren't centuries old or anything - these are things that are happening today in chruchs all over the world. I personally know people who have experienced them.

On the surface, they are unexplanable. But what can be explained is that they do happen. That much I understand.

Outside the bible there is no evidence of Jesus healing anyone. As to miracles of healing happening today no documented cases have ever been confirmed. There are cases of spontaneous remission which occur in all faiths and no faiths.

 

[reznwerks]

prophecy

And if such a rational basis could be had, you'd think we'd have come across it in 2000 years of trying. ;)

There are ten manuscripts copied about 1,000 years after Julius Ceasar wrote them but no one disputes that Julius Ceasar existed. The manuscript evidence for the Bible is much much better than that.
There is a whole lot of other reference material that existed independently of Rome that confirms that Caesar existed. This is not the case with the bible .

The Bible is entirely true because of fulfilled prophecy, true because of its preservation, true because of transformed lives, and true because of archaeological proof.
The bible has been shown to be riddled with many errors and those that claim otherwise are denying what is there to see. There are very few evidences of fulfilled prophecy in the bible. Many of the prophecies were not considered prophecy at the time of reading it. They were made to be prophecy at a later date. PM me and I will explain. It is true that the bible has transformed peoples lives but so has the Koran Buddhism Hinduism etc. It proves nothing other than when people have something to devote their lives to more positive things occur. People have turned their likes around by getting an education and finding rewarding work, started business they loved, sports etc.

 

[Guest]

Who says you cannot test God in His promises? Believing you can't test God is limiting your exposure to Him.

What promises are you refering to?

BINGO! :D

God is a living God. Believing in the things past is not the joy of the future things unseen. The joy is in experiencing the living God today.

I'm afraid I'm past the point of blindly believing to experience this "spiritual joy" either now, or in the future. There have been TOO many things that I've been exposed to over the past year or so that have destroyed any possibility of "blind faith" in me. At least, that which has been doctrinized and taught for centuries. There is still the possibility of believing in the spiritual, but it won't be that of the protestant faith, I'm afraid. Something close. I'm still on that journey.

 

[Novum]

Novum, I've been witnessing for over 20 years and people make stuff up about the Bible because they don't want to accept the Bible and not because they necessarily have any valid evidence. People don't want God to have any claim on their lives so they fight.

No. If there was more evidence for the bible than for Caesar, it just wouldn't make sense to see this level of doubt. While people may indeed "make stuff up" about the bible, most people are not in the business of blatantly denying obvious evidence. Either:

1) You are mistaken about the amount of evidence available for the bible, or
2) There is a massive conspiracy underway to prevent people from accepting the masses of evidence you claim are available.

Personally, I'd say the former is far more likely.

 

[Novum]

You also did not answer my question about the scientific method.

I didn't see a question. I saw a statement which said:

"Yup, that's about how science works. What's the problem?"

I think I need a little more than that to figure out what you want.

You posted a long description of the scientific method that I interpreted as critical of the method, hence my question. If I am mistaken about my interpretation, why did you write what you did? Or, if I am correct that you find fault with the scientific method, what is the problem you see?

Additionally, for the characteristics you named, do you deny that your bible is wholly unremarkable?

 

[Klee shay]

Who says you cannot test God in His promises? Believing you can't test God is limiting your exposure to Him.

What promises are you refering to?

That he WILL sustain you in everything involved with this life.

[quote="Klee shay":66746]BINGO! :D

God is a living God. Believing in the things past is not the joy of the future things unseen. The joy is in experiencing the living God today.

I'm afraid I'm past the point of blindly believing to experience this "spiritual joy" either now, or in the future. There have been TOO many things that I've been exposed to over the past year or so that have destroyed any possibility of "blind faith" in me.

Yep, and I bet you've kicked right into survival mode. Done that a few times myself. Didn't want to see God when I didn't have enough to comprehend him.

At least, that which has been doctrinized and taught for centuries.

What Jesus taught was a lot different to what institutions of God have been teaching for centuries. You have to remember that Jesus was the only man to do God's will perfectly. :wink:

There is still the possibility of believing in the spiritual, but it won't be that of the protestant faith, I'm afraid. Something close. I'm still on that journey.[/quote:66746]

Well all the best on that journey. I hope you are able to cling onto God during these tough times however; for it has been in my experience that he is the only thing which remains true in this life when mankind fails.

Take care.

 

[Guest]

What promises are you refering to?

That he WILL sustain you in everything involved with this life.

I'm not sure what that mean. . . ."he will sustain you"? There are many non-christians who have a great life and live quite happily. . . .feelings of sustainability. . . . .and I have heard many stories of christians who lived a rather miserable life, though still able to give praise to God. There are, no doubt, some non-christians that are able to do the same while they live in poverty. It's a matter of how you decide what mindset you choose to adopt.

Yep, and I bet you've kicked right into survival mode. Done that a few times myself. Didn't want to see God when I didn't have enough to comprehend him.

"Survival mode"? I'm not sure than ANY person has it all together when it comes to "seeing God" or "comprehending him". Christians are (and I say this as politely as possible) a bit arrogant in the believe that they have their God all figured out. But generations pass down their own "conceptions" generation after generation. Truth is, the majorities "conceptions" are most of the time in error, not necessarily due to themselves, but the doctrines and beliefs passed down.

What Jesus taught was a lot different to what institutions of God have been teaching for centuries. You have to remember that Jesus was the only man to do God's will perfectly. :wink:

Well all the best on that journey. I hope you are able to cling onto God during these tough times however; for it has been in my experience that he is the only thing which remains true in this life when mankind fails.

Take care.

Yep, a lot different than what organized religion has made it out to be. And it all started not long after that time in the 1st century.

But thanks, I'm sure my journey will be an exciting one.

Tak care yourself!