Why the necessity of "faith"?

[Orion]

"Without faith, it is impossible to please God." Why is that? I've questioned this for a long time now. What is so "holy" about "believing in that which is unseen, unheard"? Why would God have such an undenyable presence at ONE time in history [old and new testament], . . .then drastically chance it to where only those who have FAITH are saved? I have searched for years trying to find what others have demonstrated [at least in their way of understanding], . . . attempting to find a REAL connection, . . . but have only been told that it is a matter of "faith", believing without seeing, hearing, feeling, . . . . without the use of any senses, relying soley on the words written down a few millenia before the present, as what I am to go on!

I'm told that I need to have a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ". Yet, it can only be had through my own ability to "have faith in it". My OWN belief that the relationship exists, and in my own ability to do a lot of "leg work" to cultivate it, for example, . . . studying the Bible, praying, serving, . . . yet all these things are physical activities that I do [and I DO], . . . . . .but I don't feel any connection with Jesus. My room is just me, . . . alone in my thoughts. I have nothing to go by, . . something that translates TO ME that it is real, though I've tried.

Faith has been left barren for me. If we are given a measure of faith. . . . . . . because it would appear that I have little, if any, . . . . . . . could I conclude that God/Jesus hasn't given it to me, because I am, in fact, NOT desired BY him at all, and that my attempts are in vane?

So, it COULD be concluded that, because none of it was ever real, in the first place, that "faith" was all that the religious leaders had. All they could go on. Yet, needing the people's tithes, they had to have something to keep the inflow of goods.

"Knock and the door will be opened. Seek and you will find." Is that even true?

 

[shad]

Yet, it can only be had through my own ability to "have faith in it".

Faith is your decision to commitment to God and Jesus. Jesus wants your will to love Him. Jesus says if you love Him keep His commandments. His commandments are all His teachings.

 

[shad]

"Knock and the door will be opened. Seek and you will find." Is that even true?

Jesus' followers believe all Scriptures are God breathed. Believe in God's Word (the Bible) is main part of commitment to God. Above verse is in the Bible, so yes it is true. You are knocking and the door is open, but you are resisting to go in.

 

[Adullam]

God is invisible to our eyes, and the eternal reality is unseen. It follows that we must hold the unseen as more real that what is seen in order to please God.

 

[Orion]

"Knock and the door will be opened. Seek and you will find." Is that even true?

Jesus' followers believe all Scriptures are God breathed. Believe in God's Word (the Bible) is main part of commitment to God. Above verse is in the Bible, so yes it is true. You are knocking and the door is open, but you are resisting to go in.

I suppose you can call it "resisting". I call it, "just not getting it". I have to understand in order to open the door. Actually, I have to SEE the door [the metaphorical door you have offered]. It is a concept found in a religious book. It CAN transform my life. . . IN the way I follow it. And as I said, I attempt to everyday, . . . because many of the concepts are good TO follow. However, my ability to follow them doesn't translate into "a relationship with God". Can someone through out another word to replace "relationship", because when I see/hear that word, what I get out of God . . . .isn't. Maybe I'm just having trouble with the word.

However, "faith alone" is an honestly tough concept to reconsile. I can never FULLY know if what I read, or "hear in my thoughts" is anything from God. Concepts MAY be, . . . .but not that they are being spoken directly to me.

 

[Orion]

God is invisible to our eyes, and the eternal reality is unseen. It follows that we must hold the unseen as more real that what is seen in order to please God.

No, . . . . it is a religious ideology that states that "we hold the unseen as more real". It isn't, . . . at least not to me. That's why I wonder if God, . . . who is supposed to give us our "measure of faith", has no interest in me, due to my inability to get what you all seem to hold dear.

 

[shad]

Concepts MAY be, . . . .but not that they are being spoken directly to me.

All the Words are spoken to all His followers. We should not take a pick the Word.

 

[Adullam]

God is invisible to our eyes, and the eternal reality is unseen. It follows that we must hold the unseen as more real that what is seen in order to please God.

No, . . . . it is a religious ideology that states that "we hold the unseen as more real". It isn't, . . . at least not to me. That's why I wonder if God, . . . who is supposed to give us our "measure of faith", has no interest in me, due to my inability to get what you all seem to hold dear.

God is not intrusive into our lives. You must pay more attention to the reality of God...by giving things to Him. Watch what happens!

 

[Orion]

God is invisible to our eyes, and the eternal reality is unseen. It follows that we must hold the unseen as more real that what is seen in order to please God.

No, . . . . it is a religious ideology that states that "we hold the unseen as more real". It isn't, . . . at least not to me. That's why I wonder if God, . . . who is supposed to give us our "measure of faith", has no interest in me, due to my inability to get what you all seem to hold dear.

God is not intrusive into our lives. You must pay more attention to the reality of God...by giving things to Him. Watch what happens!

He can be as intrusive as he wants!!!

By the way, how can I PERSONALLY "give things to him"? What do you mean by "pay more attention to the REALITY of God"?

 

[dentonz]

God is invisible to our eyes, and the eternal reality is unseen. It follows that we must hold the unseen as more real that what is seen in order to please God.

No, . . . . it is a religious ideology that states that "we hold the unseen as more real". It isn't, . . . at least not to me. That's why I wonder if God, . . . who is supposed to give us our "measure of faith", has no interest in me, due to my inability to get what you all seem to hold dear.

Orion, come on man, myself and Shad and others don't just imagine this stuff. He has given every man the measure of faith to believe in something greater than we are; however, the faith that we speak of only comes through understanding the word of God. I know, how can we understand something that was written by other people, in a different time, written in parables that don't make sense to the modern man? The author is found in the pages. As we read and study, He reveals himself to us. Then it no longer becomes a matter of "faith" by our definition, it truly becomes the "substance" and "evidence" that Paul speaks of. It' s not that I believe it's real, I know, better than I know my own name. He becomes more real to us than our very existence. We are bound by a few dimensions in a place in time, his word is not; therefore, his prescence is more real than the air we breathe. If you read my last post in your "God is punishing me" thread, it explains what I'm trying to say better.

 

[Orion]

Yes, I read that other post. I have actually gone through the bible, old and new, and can see many good things, . . . . for instance, in the Psalms, and even Proberbs, as well as other places. I highlighted my bible a bunch back then. However, I also found things that concerned me too, . . .

The way you speak really intrigues me, to be honest. I really am quite dumbfounded in your choice of words, . . . and I don't doubt that you are being honest yourself. I'm just not sure what to think of them, but appreciate your sincerity.

 

[dentonz]

Yes, I read that other post. I have actually gone through the bible, old and new, and can see many good things, . . . . for instance, in the Psalms, and even Proberbs, as well as other places. I highlighted my bible a bunch back then. However, I also found things that concerned me too, . . .

The way you speak really intrigues me, to be honest. I really am quite dumbfounded in your choice of words, . . . and I don't doubt that you are being honest yourself. I'm just not sure what to think of them, but appreciate your sincerity.

What choice of words? I might be able to clarify.

 

[Orion]

What choice of words? I might be able to clarify.

These words:

"It' s not that I believe it's real, I know, better than I know my own name. He becomes more real to us than our very existence. We are bound by a few dimensions in a place in time, his word is not; therefore, his prescence is more real than the air we breathe."

I find it fascinating . . . . . yet do not see how. I've studied scripture in an honest attempt, . . . yet have never come close to such a statement.

 

[Cornelius]

What choice of words? I might be able to clarify.

These words:

"It' s not that I believe it's real, I know, better than I know my own name. He becomes more real to us than our very existence. We are bound by a few dimensions in a place in time, his word is not; therefore, his prescence is more real than the air we breathe."

I find it fascinating . . . . . yet do not see how. I've studied scripture in an honest attempt, . . . yet have never come close to such a statement.

I personally think you are at a good place in your walk. Soon now, you will drop religion (because I can see that it is bugging you . Good for you ) God is causing this discomfort in your spirit. He wants to rid you of the traditions of men. But first we all must come to the place you are heading for : Total disillusionment ! with what you were told the truth is.

I have been down that road so I can tell you: Your spirit is not satisfied with what you have been given as "the truth", because it is not the truth. I think you will know what I am talking about. You have a hunger , but you do not know where to go to eat.

Step one: Complain to God, even if you feel He is far away. Just be honest and say exactly how you feel. Anger is allowed even good.

Step two :Then you have to say what exactly it is what you want from God. Be really clear about it.

Step three: You have to move "outside the camp" because you are not going to find the answer inside "normal" Christianity. Nope, they do not know. You have to take a break and leave them for a while and just go to God.

Step four: If you have done all of the above: Fasten your seatbelt, because the ride is about to rough.

Blessings
C

 

[Orion]

A very interesting post, Cornelius. Thank you for posting!

 

[mondar]

Orion,
You have asked the right question. What the apostles were talking about when they used terms like "Faith" or "Believe" can be found in their writings in the NT. The NT takes us back to the OT. Let me quote a specific passage.... Romans 4:1-3

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God.
3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

In this text, Abraham "believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. " If you have a bible, look in the cross references of Romans 4:3. Do you see a cross reference to Genesis 15:6?

Let me quote another text. Galatians 3:6.
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Again, look in the cross references and see what OT text is quoted. Again, Genesis 15:6.

The reason is that Genesis 15:6 is the great biblical example of what faith is.
6 And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness.

The next question concerning "what is faith" is then what did Abraham believe. The context gives us the answer. Notice in Genesis 15 God is making certain promises to Abraham.
1 After these things the word of Jehovah came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
God promises to be Abrahams "shield." This is of course very meaningful. If you look back into Chapter 14 you will see Abraham got in some military actions that were way over his head. Abraham was a chieftan with 318 trained warrior servants. But he took on several kings. A chieftan was no match for one king, let alone several kings. If these cities came back and attacked Abraham, who would defend him? Who would be his shield? But this is not the issue of Abrahams faith. He believed God to be his shield, but that was not the big issue.

2 And Abram said, O Lord Jehovah, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and he that shall be possessor of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Abraham's faith was wrapped around having seed, or descendants. The entire Abrahamic story takes up this issue. Abraham is no spring chicken, and has an adopted heir. This seems insufficient.

God then makes a promise.
4 And, behold, the word of Jehovah came unto him, saying, This man shall not be thine heir; But he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Excuse the archaic language. I think most readers will see that Gods promise concerned Abraham having a physical seed. He is to have a son. This son will be the special heir of not just Abrahamic property, but of Abrahamic promises from God.

6 And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness.
And there it is. Abraham believed a specific promise from God, and the faith in the promise of God was what God used to impute righteousness to Abraham. God took that faith, banged his divine gavel, and as judge of the universe pronounced Abraham innocent of all charges. If God pronounces Abraham innocent, who can accuse him of guilt (Read the end of Romans 8).

So then, faith is believing what God promised. Now here is the twist. Abraham had very little that God revealed. Today we have much more promised to us. Our promises center around the person of Jesus Christ. The God/man who was our substitute. Man is a rebel sinner, we have all gone astray. So then, our faith is in the promise of salvation through the God/Man, Jesus Christ. No one else can propitiate Gods wrath away from rebel sinners.

Just as Abraham believed the promises of God he had, we believe in the fuller promises of God and are declared righteous on that basis.

Here is the kicker, no man can believe what I just said unless his nature is changed to believe the above message. That regeneration will first result in faith, then after faith, a life of service and works. But it all begins with faith. It begins with a sure knowledge that the shed blood of the God/man, Jesus Christ is completely sufficient to deliver you from the just wrath of God upon you as a rebel sinner.

To the glory of God,
Mondar

 

[Imagican]

Orion,

God IS your Heavenly Father. He LOVES you regardless of what you THINK.

God desires our love in return.

Now, HOW can we LOVE that which do NOT KNOW? That is where FAITH comes into play.

We have been GIVEN The Word. We have been LEFT the Spirit. And I can ASSURE you, that if your heart is in the RIGHT place, that YES, if you KNOCK it will be opened, if you ask, you shall receive.

Now, to explain what the 'right place' is can turn into a pretty complex conversation that MAY not be able to be answered in a way that WORKS for YOU. For each of us comes to God in OUR OWN WAY. Regardless of what OTHERS may TELL YOU concerning Baptism and being 'born again', it is NOT on OUR terms that these events take place.

I know that sincerity is the KEY. How do we KNOW when we are 'sincere'? Well, if you don't know then I would be hard-pressed to explain it to you or anyone else. But I KNOW that God knows when we are SINCERE. And that is the FIRST step in FAITH. To offer a SINCERE appeal to YOUR Heavenly Father. Offering recognition of your NEED for Him in your life. When your prayers begin to be answered, you WIL KNOW.

But, beware of WHAT you ask for. For oftentimes we know NOT what we are asking when we ask God to 'come into our lives'. For His knowledge well surpasses our imaginations. And if HE offers answer to prayer, it may well NOT be in the MANNER that we SEEK. But rest assured, if God ANSWERS your prayers, He does so in A manner that is BEST for you OVERALL.

Example:

I can assure you that many that have asked for His help have found themselves suffering MORE after than before. For sometimes that is what's NEEDED for us to SUBMIT TOTALLY. Some have found themselves incarcerated. For that is the ONLY means to satisfy what we asked for. Sometimes it entails LOSS. For sometimes that is what we NEED in order to place our faith IN HIM.

So, FAITH does please God. For without it, we CANNOT even KNOW Him. And if we cannot KNOW Him, then we are unable to recognize HIS LOVE USWARD.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Orion]

I guess my problem is in translating what it means to "totally submit" to the words written in a book. I don't feel a connection WITH God. And as for the issue of "faith", . . . here is my thoughts on that. The apostles were supposed to be the greats of the faith, . . . doing great things after the ascension. But did they have "FAITH"? They knew Jesus personally, saw what He did, watched Him die, witnessed His ressurection and ascention. In this case, they didn't "walk by faith", . . .but were living it.

However, the gift of "faith" has not rested upon me. Though I try to reconcile the idea of it in my life, I wind up well short of any significant goal. Reading the Bible doesn't translate into anything specific to me.

Maybe 5 point Calvanism is actually true, and the reason I'm not the way Christianity says I should be is because I'm actually NOT "chosen".

 

[shad]

In this case, they didn't "walk by faith", . . .but were living it.

they are the same thing Orion.
Many churchgoers dont understand what are Jesus' commandments are. They are all of Jesus' teachings and warnings.

I will give you just one example. Jesus says to "love your enemy". If we want to be obedient to Jesus, we will not be joining the military because you may have to kill your enemy at war if you are a soldier.

Living out what Jesus tells you is "waking by faith".

 

[Orion]

Wow, . . . . . . . . I'm thankful for all those disobedient men and women who defend our country. :yes



Interestinly, . . . . seems like Heaven has changed it's mind on the whole "war" thing, beause it was commanded them to battle in the Old Testament.