why the secularisation?

[Christ_empowered]

Or...seculiZation?

I mean, I'm all for social progress and social programs. But why is it that modernization and progress seems to inevitably bring with it secularization and a turn away from Christ (and many traditional religions) ?

I don't think people give up on an idea of God or something bigger than themselves. Have you ever noticed that even the most irreligious person who is steeped in secularism will speak of karma and being "spiritual, not religious" ? So...as best I can tell from what I've seen and read, people keep an interest in the divine and spiritual things, but they put together a sort of religion of 1. I like this, that, not so much this or that...religious mix'n'match, basically. I also think cults seem to pop up where more traditional religions have faded or are fading, so its not as if religious expression in a structured, group setting goes away, either.

It makes me wonder...do you think maybe a lot of it because many Christians--now and in years past--weren't all that Christian? I'm not saying that to be all "Look at me, ultimate #1 real Christian," I mean...seriously. Do you think that when church is part of the culture, there's tons of church people who just aren't into Jesus? Or do you think modernization= a genuine turn away from Christ?

I just find it disturbing, that's all. Makes me wonder...as secularization comes to America, will believers resort to house churches and such? Will more and more believers end up online, like here and (I hope...) other quality forums for seekers?

I used to think the secularization was from social programs. I mean, Europe is very secularized, and many of those nations take good care of their people. But...the UK is secularized, and they don't have the same level of social programs as some other nations that don't seem any more secular. From what little I've read on it, secularization is even hitting South American nations, and a lot of those countries aren't all that affluent and don't do much to help their people. So I don't think the safety net is the issue. If anything, the safety net follows secularization, or seems to (amateur analysis, lol).

Ramble...what do you all think?

And..what strikes me as odd...as nations become more secular, the government ends up doing more for people, which is sort of like state-sponsored Christian charity, but without Jesus. In fact...as the government does more for people and secularization progresses, there seems sometimes to be a level of hostility towards more traditional forms of Christianity.

I don't get it.

 

[Northman]

I don't get it.

In your third paragraph you ask three questions, answer yes to the first two and there lies the foundation for all your answers for this type of stuff.

 

[Eugene]

.
Dear Brother Christ_empowered, the truth of God is known, and when they don’t receive the reality shown them they will receive any manner of thoughts to replace Him.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

There was a story from WW2 of a previously unknown tribe in the Philippians that had constructed a facsimile made out of straw I think it was of an existing plane they observed flying overhead several times. When discovered they were bowing down and worshipping it; it is in the mind of man to do such things normally with works of their perceived righteousness to please a wrathful god. Without knowledge, the word of God, and wisdom Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and even some variations of Christianity become prevalent such as JW’s and Mormonism.

Secularism seems most likely to fit the description of the following scriptures.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Wrg1405]

Secularization is the transformation of a society from close identification with religious values and institutions toward nonreligious values and secular institutions. The secularization thesis refers to the belief that as societies progress, particularly through modernization and rationalization, religion loses its authority in all aspects of social life and governance.[1] The term secularization is also used in the context of the lifting of the monastic restrictions from a member of the clergy.[2]

Secularization refers to the historical process in which religion loses social and cultural significance. As a result of secularization the role of religion in modern societies becomes restricted. In secularized societies faith lacks cultural authority, and religious organizations have little social power. (Wikipedia)

Where governments of religious country's as such control the masses then secularisation doesn't happen, it's not allowed to happen (in the main) where governments of countries that are not religious control the masses then it's already secularised as such.

Social progress/programmes are about self awareness and self help or reliance on the institution of the Govt of the country. Extreme religious non religious countries do not allow social progress or self awareness. Such countries then make themselves god of the people.

But...the UK is secularized, and they don't have the same level of social programs as some other nations that don't seem any more secular.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this point. I'm not saying this because I live in the UK. We do have high level of social programs, through the government and through other well meaning organisations that are not of the government, look up Red Nose Day, Children in need.

The problem over here is that such social programs teach self help, such organisations like Red Nose Day that say we will help you (and I am not knocking it in terms of alleviating suffering, I donate to Red Nose Day) they both do one thing. Lead to secularisation. They detract from the need of the one true God, they detract from Jesus.
People say to themselves "I don't need God, I don't need Jesus, my needs will be met" when they think that way, the concept of needing Jesus to save us and reconcile us back to God doesn't even come on the horizon.

Jesus preached, you need God, I'm here to bring you back and by the way he will meet your needs, spiritually and physically, he will feed you.

Over here we have a bit of two edged sword. We have a government that teaches tolerance of all faiths (and to be honest the main one against Christianity is Isalm) yet Islam over here seems to be wanting to impose its views and reverse secularisation and impose its views. And I'm sad to say that some of our church demoninations have accepted that, they even have multi faith services. I really have no idea why and no idea how on earth that works.

That in itself leads away from the one true God.

However I would like say that it is not all doom and gloom. There are churches like my one and others that are getting together. We have social programmes to meet the social, economic and spiritual needs of others. The focus is based on their needs for life as it is but also the focus on the need for God. We do food banks, Christians against poverty and many more.

If we want to reverse secularisation then the true church of God really needs to step up. When I say church I don't mean denominations per se but it's people who love Jesus and want to make the difference he has asked us to make. People who want to hear the following, and having done that and revealing Jesus it has a knock on effect.

Matthew 25:34-40
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

 

[OzSpen]

Or...seculiZation?

I mean, I'm all for social progress and social programs. But why is it that modernization and progress seems to inevitably bring with it secularization and a turn away from Christ (and many traditional religions) ?

I don't think people give up on an idea of God or something bigger than themselves. Have you ever noticed that even the most irreligious person who is steeped in secularism will speak of karma and being "spiritual, not religious" ? So...as best I can tell from what I've seen and read, people keep an interest in the divine and spiritual things, but they put together a sort of religion of 1. I like this, that, not so much this or that...religious mix'n'match, basically. I also think cults seem to pop up where more traditional religions have faded or are fading, so its not as if religious expression in a structured, group setting goes away, either.

It makes me wonder...do you think maybe a lot of it because many Christians--now and in years past--weren't all that Christian? I'm not saying that to be all "Look at me, ultimate #1 real Christian," I mean...seriously. Do you think that when church is part of the culture, there's tons of church people who just aren't into Jesus? Or do you think modernization= a genuine turn away from Christ?

I just find it disturbing, that's all. Makes me wonder...as secularization comes to America, will believers resort to house churches and such? Will more and more believers end up online, like here and (I hope...) other quality forums for seekers?

I used to think the secularization was from social programs. I mean, Europe is very secularized, and many of those nations take good care of their people. But...the UK is secularized, and they don't have the same level of social programs as some other nations that don't seem any more secular. From what little I've read on it, secularization is even hitting South American nations, and a lot of those countries aren't all that affluent and don't do much to help their people. So I don't think the safety net is the issue. If anything, the safety net follows secularization, or seems to (amateur analysis, lol).

Ramble...what do you all think?

And..what strikes me as odd...as nations become more secular, the government ends up doing more for people, which is sort of like state-sponsored Christian charity, but without Jesus. In fact...as the government does more for people and secularization progresses, there seems sometimes to be a level of hostility towards more traditional forms of Christianity.

I don't get it.

CE,

Ashley Crossman of about.education provides this definition: 'Secularization is a process of social change through which the public influence of religion and religious thinking declines as it is replaced by other ways of explaining reality and regulating social life'.

We need to be clear about how it happens and Romans 1:18-32 (ESV) is pointed in its assessment:

1. People suppress the truth of God in their unrighteousness and will experience God's wrath (v. 18). People practise wickedness/injustice.
2. God has revealed Himself to everyone through creation and God's invisible attributes such as his eternal power and divine nature are 'clearly perceived' (v. 20).
3. So every human being will stand before God 'without excuse' (v. 20). What have they done with the revelation through creation?

I'm of the view that a few other factors have led to this secularisation. I live in a very secular Australia. These influences are:

Firstly, we live in a mass media culture and many of the promoters of secularisation are plying their wares for all to see on the media. We can be suckers who are drawn into this superficial nonsense.

Secondly, there are certain institutions that are prominent in promoting secular values. In my country they are:

(a) government at federal and state level. They constantly bring in legislation that is contrary to Scripture. Right now the federal government is debating whether or not to have a plebiscite of the people to vote on same-sex marriage.

(b) Universities and colleges are breeding grounds for secularisation and anti-biblical agendas. I'm currently attending a series of lectures in one university that is promoting abortion and euthanasia in its Dept of Law. I take the opportunity at Q&A time to raise some Christian views of critique.

Thirdly, there are not enough Christians who have the training and ability to speak openly in the public square. We desperately need them NOW. I recommend that you listen to Prof. John Lennox, Prof of Mathematics at Oxford University and a Christian, on 'God in the Public Square'. I'd suggest a read of Dr R Albert Mohler, Jr's, We Cannot Be Silent (Nelson Books 2015). I know from experience that when I write letters to the editor (if they are likely to be published), I can expect a tirade of abuse or fallacies from the antagonists. Many Christians are not prepared to endure such opposition.

We must get into the rough and tumble of discussion/debate on contemporary issues and show people the negative consequences of secularisation. What do you think they might be?

Oz

 

[Christ_empowered]

I read something Pope John Paul II wrote on "The Culture of Death." basically, a lot of "progress" is death. Sodomy, easy divorce, abortion on demand, euthanasia, etc. Although I'm a big fan of social programs and making society more humane and live-able, it does seem that there comes a point with secularization at which "The Culture of Death" overrides any remaining resistance. In The Netherlands, for instance, they've OK'd assisted suicide for the severely mentally ill. One of the first "patients" was a 20something who had suffered horrible abuse and wasn't "responding to treatment." Basically, a doctor gave her what she needed to kill herself because the secular world of Mental Health, Inc. had nothing more to offer her. :-(

I'm also wondering if making society more humane and live-able inevitably leads to intense secularization, and if so...why? Wrg touched upon that a bit, and I agree with him to a point. What I'm wondering is...if making people more comfortable reduces the numbers of Christians, was Christianity ever that big a part of the culture to begin with? Or was it really going to church that mattered?

Secularization is coming to America. I hope we get more social programs, less incarceration, less inequality (at a certain point, inequality hurts most people and hurts the economy, too)...but I worry that churches will empty and the culture will grow more openly hostile to Christians.

So...its a mixed bag, I suppose.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm also wondering if making society more humane and live-able inevitably leads to intense secularization, and if so...why? Wrg touched upon that a bit, and I agree with him to a point. What I'm wondering is...if making people more comfortable reduces the numbers of Christians, was Christianity ever that big a part of the culture to begin with? Or was it really going to church that mattered?

Haven't you read of the Christian foundations of the medical and hospice movement? See:

• Florence Nightingale.
• The role of Christianity in the history of medicine.

As for what's happening in the Netherlands (and Belgium), see, Netherlands sees sharp increase in people choosing euthanasia due to 'mental health problems' (The Telegraph, 11 May 2016)

Oz