Will there be a rapture?

[lecoop]

JM wrote,

[quote:045a4]Coop's Quote:
3) How does the two witnesses get to heaven?

From what I see all are gathered by death into the throne room of God. [/quote:045a4]

Rev 11
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Does this sound to you like they are dead? I have never seen someone dead standing on their feet!

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Please don't skim over this: read each word carefully: "They heard a great voice from heaven." What does Paul say?

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,...

In the rapture, there is a great voice from heaven also also! What does the great voice say? "Come up hither!" And what happens? They are "caught up!"

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,...

Therefore, we can say that these two witnesses were "raptured" to heaven. In fact, we could say that Jesus Himself was "raptured" to heaven. He was "caught up" into heaven.

Have we heard a saying, "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck" [sounds like a duck] and acts like a duck, then IT IS A DUCK!

What does the great crowd "look like?"

"These are they which came out of great tribulation..."

There is no "great tribulation" ongoing in heaven. No, tribulation takes place on earth. Therefore, these people came from earth.

"and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

How do we as Jesus' body on earth, get born again? It is only through the shed blood of the Lamb. This looks like the church.

"a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,"

Where will the raptured church come from? Of course from all over the world: every nation, every kindred, every people, and every tongue. This looks like the church.

"...clothed with white robes,..."

Jesus said to one of the churches, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;..." Again, this looks like the church.

Did they die to get there? There is definitely no indication that they died. how does John discribe people that died to get there?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Why does John see the souls? Very simply because they have not yet received their resurrection bodies! These people's bodies are still in the graves on earth. Therefore, we can conclude that John did not see the souls in this great crowd: he saw resurrection bodies.

So if we know the day will come that the church will be raptured, or "caught up" and we know that it must be before the wrath of God, why would this not be the raptured church? John saw this group just before the wrath is God is mentioned in the great earthquake. It is FAR more likely to be the rapture than in Rev 4:1 where John is called up.

However, if you still cannot make this assumption, that is ok. You will find one day that you will be part of that great crowd that John saw! Perhaps then you will believe! : -))

Coop

 

[JM]

Rev 11
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Does this sound to you like they are dead? I have never seen someone dead standing on their feet!

Good insights coop, but what does “spirit of life†refer to if not the resurrection? It’s likely a reference to the resurrection as found in Eze. 37:10-11. We also see that it “entered into them†as in giving them life or reanimating them. I just don’t know if the two witnesses are literal or figurative, it seems they “could†represent Israel being resurrected after the time of gentiles.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Please don't skim over this: read each word carefully: "They heard a great voice from heaven." What does Paul say?

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,...

In the rapture, there is a great voice from heaven also also! What does the great voice say? "Come up hither!" And what happens? They are "caught up!"

The Lord descending isn’t mentioned in Rev. 6, 7 or 11, I could be wrong.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,...

Therefore, we can say that these two witnesses were "raptured" to heaven. In fact, we could say that Jesus Himself was "raptured" to heaven. He was "caught up" into heaven.

No comment.

Have we heard a saying, "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck" [sounds like a duck] and acts like a duck, then IT IS A DUCK!

Cute. But does it apply? What if it looks like a bird, sounds like a bird and makes noise like a bird? Is it automatically a duck?

What does the great crowd "look like?"

"These are they which came out of great tribulation..."

Ok.

There is no "great tribulation" ongoing in heaven. No, tribulation takes place on earth. Therefore, these people came from earth.

"and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

How do we as Jesus' body on earth, get born again? It is only through the shed blood of the Lamb. This looks like the church.

"a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,"

Ok, where’s the rapture?

Where will the raptured church come from? Of course from all over the world: every nation, every kindred, every people, and every tongue. This looks like the church.

"...clothed with white robes,..."

Jesus said to one of the churches, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;..." Again, this looks like the church.

Did they die to get there? There is definitely no indication that they died. how does John discribe people that died to get there?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

None of the above proves the timing of the rapture, but it does prove those who are gathered in heaven are the church, not that startling really.

Why does John see the souls? Very simply because they have not yet received their resurrection bodies! These people's bodies are still in the graves on earth. Therefore, we can conclude that John did not see the souls in this great crowd: he saw resurrection bodies.

You just admitted that souls are invisible, yet John was able to see them, should we go beyond what the text states and insert that they are “resurrected bodies?†Souls are invisible but John was receiving a vision, this is apocalyptic literate and it states that they were souls, that is the literal understanding of the passage.

So if we know the day will come that the church will be raptured, or "caught up" and we know that it must be before the wrath of God,

Stated, not proven, but likely.

why would this not be the raptured church?

Because it’s conjecture, it’s inserted and not proven. If the Church is removed from the earth, who are the saved after the rapture and how are they saved? Are they members of the Church?

John saw this group just before the wrath is God is mentioned in the great earthquake. It is FAR more likely to be the rapture than in Rev 4:1 where John is called up.

It is more likely then Rev. 4, but still not proven.

However, if you still cannot make this assumption, that is ok. You will find one day that you will be part of that great crowd that John saw! Perhaps then you will believe! : -))

Coop

Coop, the prewrath view makes a lot of sense, but it has holes just like ALL other eschatological views.

~JM~

 

[Judy]

Coop, the prewrath view makes a lot of sense, but it has holes just like ALL other eschatological views.

~JM~

What are the hole that you see Jason?

 

[lecoop]

JM said

Good insights coop, but what does “spirit of life†refer to if not the resurrection? It’s likely a reference to the resurrection as found in Eze. 37:10-11. We also see that it “entered into them†as in giving them life or reanimating them. I just don’t know if the two witnesses are literal or figurative, it seems they “could†represent Israel being resurrected after the time of gentiles.

Surely the "spirit of life," was the human spirit that was in them before they died. God just brought them back to life as He did Lazarus. Yes, it was a resurrection. What we don't know is if they received resurrection bodies. I suspect they did.

JM said

The Lord descending isn’t mentioned in Rev. 6, 7 or 11, I could be wrong.

John did not see the rapture in the visions. God chose not to show him that. Therefore, it was not critical that we see it. I am convinced that what God did show us was the effects of the rapture; that is the church in heaven. IF you think this isn't the church, what is your idea?

JM said

Cute. But does it apply? What if it looks like a bird, sounds like a bird and makes noise like a bird? Is it automatically a duck?

We cannot be dogmatic on things that are not written, unless they are revealed. This was not revealed to me; it just makes good sense to me: the discription is right, and the timing is right. Do you see something here that makes you think it is not the raptured church?

JM said

Ok, where’s the rapture?

Sorry, no rapture was shown to John; only the effects of it.

JM said

None of the above proves the timing of the rapture, but it does prove those who are gathered in heaven are the church, not that startling really.

True. I get the timing of the rapture from the context of this scripture. Of course many disagree with me. What time is it? It is after the 6th seal, which is the seal in our immediate future. The first five seals have been broken since about 33 AD. The prophecy of Joel 2, and Isaiah 2, both point to the 6th seal. That is, the 6th seal fulfills these prophecies, showing us that the Day of the Lord will start with the 7th seal. [This was revealed to me.] The trumpets then, are in the first half of the week, and the vials in the last half. The midpoint is "clearly marked" [the HG's exact words to me] by the 7th trumpet, and the end is clearly marked by the 7th vial. Therefore, the timing of the rapture is just before the Day of the Lord, and the 70th week start.

I highly suspect that the great earthquake [at the 6th seal] is the dead in Christ rising first! some have been dead for a LONG time, and God will bring together every atom of their body. Why at the earthquake? There is a precident: when Jesus died, it is written that the earth did shake, and the graves were opened. It just makes sense.

JM said

You just admitted that souls are invisible, yet John was able to see them, should we go beyond what the text states and insert that they are “resurrected bodies?†Souls are invisible but John was receiving a vision, this is apocalyptic literate and it states that they were souls, that is the literal understanding of the passage.

It seems that sometimes in scripture, the word "souls" is interchangable with "spirits." I suspect that John saw the spirits of those people. Of course their souls would be with their spirits. This is what "discerning of spirits" is all about: it is seeing into the spiritual realm, and being able to see spirits. I have been "in the spirit," meaning that I was seeing into the spirit realm, and saw demon spirits. So it would not be unusual for John to see spirits, since he was "in the spirit." On the other hand, perhaps the human soul is visible! I don't know.

JM said

Quote: by coop
[quote:628fd]So if we know the day will come that the church will be raptured, or "caught up" and we know that it must be before the wrath of God,

Stated, not proven, but likely. [/quote:628fd]

Scripture clearly states that the rapture will be before the wrath of God.

JM said

Because it’s conjecture, it’s inserted and not proven. If the Church is removed from the earth, who are the saved after the rapture and how are they saved? Are they members of the Church?

I will agree that it is conjecture. But I still believe it. Who is left behind? First, all those that were "playing church!" Most of them will immediately get born again. They will explain the missing millions to others, and they will get born again. Yes, I believe these new converts will be part of the body of Christ. Yes, I beleive they will be part of the church. BUT, the church age ends at the 7th trumpet, at the exact midpoint of the week. After that, any that turns to God will, if they survive, be a part of the millennial kingdom.

Why the 7th trumpet?
It is written that at the 7th trumpet, the great mystery would be finished.

Rev 10:7 But that when the days come when the trumpet call of the seventh angel is about to be sounded, then God's mystery (His secret design, His hidden purpose), as He had announced the glad tidings to His servants the prophets, should be fulfilled (accomplished, completed).

What is that mystery? I believe Paul discribes it:

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Col 1
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

So at the 7th trumpet the mystery of God working with the Gentiles will be finished. At this time the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in.

JM said

It is more likely then Rev. 4, but still not proven.

It cannot be proven by scripture. But I still believe it is the intent of the author.

JM said

Coop, the prewrath view makes a lot of sense, but it has holes just like ALL other eschatological views.

Sorry, I am not prewrath! Well, yes I am! Because I believe that the rapture MUST come before the wrath of God. Even pre-trib believes this. I agree, there are many holes in prewrath, as written by Van Kampen and Rosenthal. The first and formost, is they still believed that the 70th week would start with the first seal. I believe that is in error, as the first seal is to represent the church of Jesus Christ, sent out to make disciples of all nations. This happened in about 33 AD.

However, one of these gentlemen, and at the moment I forget which book, pointed correctly to the 6th seal as the pointer to the Start of the Day of the Lord; said day to start with the 7th seal.

Perhaps we can discuss any of these points that you disagree with?

Coop

 

[JM]

I'd love to respond but the post would be too long.

Sorry.

~JM~

 

[Judy]

I'd love to respond but the post would be too long.

Sorry.

~JM~

Jason, I'm not afraid of a long post. :wink: So post away if you want.

 

[jgredline]

JM
Post away. I have really been enjoying following along.
Blessings,

 

[Vic C.]

I believe that is in error, as the first seal is to represent the church of Jesus Christ, sent out to make disciples of all nations. This happened in about 33 AD

Thinking about the seals as you do, it could also have been sometime right after Saul's conversion, maybe around Acts 10... with Cornelius. I believe he was the first Gentile?

However, one of these gentlemen, and at the moment I forget which book, pointed correctly to the 6th seal as the pointer to the Start of the Day of the Lord; said day to start with the 7th seal.

It was both Van Kampen and Rosenthal and I believe them to be correct on this account, taking into account 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

Jason... go for it!

 

[Zero Link]

Umm

*raises hand*
I have a questions.
I was going over what Lecoop posted, and took a look at what Rev:11 said.

The Two Witnesses
1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

13At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

And everything became confusing again. Who are the two people that were given power to prophecies? It couldn't be the beast and his false prophet because it says those two were destroyed by the beast. Can someone explain all of that, maybe this topic would be alot clearer to me if I understood this part. Also, Lecoop it sounds like you are talking about the Second Coming of Christ. You named most of the events that will happen after the great tribulation. =\

 

[lecoop]

Zero Link wrote,

And everything became confusing again. Who are the two people that were given power to prophecies? It couldn't be the beast and his false prophet because it says those two were destroyed by the beast. Can someone explain all of that, maybe this topic would be alot clearer to me if I understood this part. Also, Lecoop it sounds like you are talking about the Second Coming of Christ. You named most of the events that will happen after the great tribulation.

Remember when God (the Redeemer, the second person of the trinity) came down to destroy Sodam and Gamorrah? He brought with Him two witnesses: angels. It seems that He wanted witnesses when He was out to destroy.

In the same way, when God is about to pour out the vials of His wrath, with the seven plagues, He wants witnesses on the earth. They will tell the truth, when the whole world is telling lies, lead by the antichrist. Some will hear what they say and believe it, and turn to God. Some say they are Moses and Elijah. Really, it doesn't matter who they are. They are God's witnesses when the whole world is wondering after the antichrist.

Perhaps if you can pinpoint what I said that sounds like the second coming, we can discuss that point.

Coop

 

[JM]

What are the hole that you see Jason?

Sorry Judy, I missed this. Maybe I should just offer a few quotes from coop.

John did not see the rapture in the visions.

We cannot be dogmatic on things that are not written...

...no rapture was shown to John...

I will agree that it is conjecture. But I still believe it.

It cannot be proven by scripture. But I still believe it is the intent of the author.

Well, that's the problem. The rapture isn't mentioned in Revelation as coop admits. Don't get me wrong, I believe the prewrath rapture view makes the most sense, but I say that with some doubt due to the reasons stated in the quotations.

~JM~

 

[Judy]

Well, that's the problem. The rapture isn't mentioned in Revelation as coop admits. Don't get me wrong, I believe the prewrath rapture view makes the most sense, but I say that with some doubt due to the reasons stated in the quotations.

~JM~

Then how do you think the great multitude in Rev. 7:9 got there? Which just so happens to right before God pours out His wrath.

 

[Zero Link]

Lecoop:

In the rapture, there is a great voice from heaven also also! What does the great voice say? "Come up hither!" And what happens? They are "caught up!"

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,...

It sounds like to me thats after the great tribulation. Isn't the rapture suppose to be within a twinkle of an eye?


Lecoop:

What does the great crowd "look like?"

"These are they which came out of great tribulation..."

Well this could mean two things, they survived the great tribulation and was just delivered up, OR they have been raptured during the great trib.

Don't worry im not against you on the rapture. :D
Can you list the events on whats going to happen(and please provide scriptures) if thats not too much.

 

[JM]

Then how do you think the great multitude in Rev. 7:9 got there? Which just so happens to right before God pours out His wrath.

I believe it's possible the great multitude was raptured, but it could also be those mentioned in Rev. 6:9, the text doesn't say how they got there.

~JM~

 

[lecoop]

Lecoop:

In the rapture, there is a great voice from heaven also also! What does the great voice say? "Come up hither!" And what happens? They are "caught up!"

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,...

It sounds like to me thats after the great tribulation. Isn't the rapture suppose to be within a twinkle of an eye?

Lecoop:

What is there in Paul's discription that would give you that idea? What is it that happens in the twinkle of an eye? "we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," It is therefore, the changing that takes place in an instant. We may stay around for a few minutes after we are changed.



Zero Link wrote

[quote:2fd7a]Coop said:
What does the great crowd "look like?"

"These are they which came out of great tribulation..."

Well this could mean two things, they survived the great tribulation and was just delivered up, OR they have been raptured during the great trib. [/quote:2fd7a]

If we look at the contest, this group was seen in heaven about 3 1/2 years before the time of great tribulation. There is then, two possibilities: one, God gave John an "out of sequence" preview of something that would happen 3 1/2 years later, or John saw this great crowd in real-time, in the vision, just before the 70th week was to begin. I believe the second one makes more sense. Next, Jesus did not put a title on the last 3 1/2 years when He said "great tribulation." If we read in chapter 2 and 3, where Jesus was dictating letters to the churches, He said that He would cast one of them into "great tribulation" if they did not repent. Was Jesus going to keep these people supernaturally alive for 2000 years, so that they could be in the last half of the 70th week, or did Jesus mean that He, as God, could create "great tribulation," any time He wanted to? Of course, He meant the latter. Therefore, when we read that this group came "out of great tribulation" does not in any way mean that they came out of the last half of the 70th week. All it means is that at the time of revival, there will be great pressure felt by believers around the world.


Zero Link wrote

Can you list the events on whats going to happen(and please provide scriptures) if thats not too much.

I take the events in the same order that John gives them. I see no reason to change his chronology, when it makes perfect sense the way it is written.

Therefore, the seals come first, but the first five seals are history to us now.
After the seals, the trumpets will be sounded. After the trumpets, the vials will be poured out. After that, Jesus comes back on the white horse!

Between the 6th and 7th seal, John goes into an intermission, to cover two events that MUST take place before the 7th seal is broken.

Between the 6th and 7th trumpet, John goes into another intermission, to cover all the events that will take place very close to the midpoint of the week. Since there are several events that happen at the same time, this takes several chapters to cover. The exact midpoint of the week is found in chapter 11 and in chapter 12, as there are at least three events that will happen at the same time.

If you see any problems with keeping with John's chronology, then bring up what problems you see, and we can discuss them.
Coop

 

[Zero Link]

Ok wait a minute. I think I was reading Matthew 24 completely wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong:

Here is some scriptures from Matthew 24:

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

I just realized that alot of people mistake this as the Great Tribulation or The Greatest Tribulation (the time when the anti-christ shows and take over the world).

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

The persecution of God's people happened soo many times throughout our lifetime and before our lifetime.

10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

Just look at the world now, PLENTY of people are athiests, against God and/or have given up faith in God.. It has got to the point where i run into athiests everyday. And look at our crime rate, look at how many murder cases there are now these days. Exactly what Jesus mentioned when he said "and hate each other".

12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Alot will feel left out and times will be hard for the ones that are with God.. Soo hard that alot won't be able to make it, probably lose faith, commit suicide, etc.. But alot will, those who are strong in God(stands firm to the end) WILL BE SAVED!<< How will Jesus save us? Hmm Then he continues with:

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,

(I am still unsure on what that mean)

Notice how Jesus mentions that then say: and then the end will come.

Then he goes on explaining the abomination of desolation:
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Danielâ€â€let the reader understand 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ€â€if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

And after he explains what happens immediately after those days..



Alot of this is very confusing.. :-? Im just swinging at the air, trying to catch an idea on how this is going to happen.

 

[lecoop]

Don't miss the phrase, "the end is not yet," meaning that at this time in His discourse, Jesus is not speaking of endtime events. He gets to the endtime events with verse 15.

Coop

 

[JM]

Christ will raise His people on the last day of the age [John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 and John 11:24]:

1/ When is the "last day" in Revelation?
2/ How many last days are there?
3/ How many people and how many will times will these people be raised?

~JM~

 

[lecoop]

Christ will raise His people on the last day of the age [John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 and John 11:24]:

1/ When is the "last day" in Revelation?
2/ How many last days are there?
3/ How many people and how many will times will these people be raised?

~JM~

Sorry, JM, but this idea just doesn't fit. There are too many other scriptures that show otherwise. However, if "the last day" here really means "the last days" or another way of saying the "day of the Lord," then it fits. If we limit all that happens, it seems far to much to fit into one 24 hour day.

When is the last 24 hour day in Revelation? What comes after that "last day?" Will there not be another 24 hour day following? Or does the sun disappear, and there are no more 24 hour days?

Perhaps you mean the last day of this age, just 24 hours before the first day of the Millenium age. If so, where do you see this?

If you believe that the rapture of the church occurs at this last 24 hour period, then how do you explain:

1) the great crowd in Rev. 7?
2) the great crowd at the wedding, in chapter 19?
3) The fact that we are saved from His wrath? (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

Coop

 

[JM]

Sorry, JM, but this idea just doesn't fit. There are too many other scriptures that show otherwise. However, if "the last day" here really means "the last days" or another way of saying the "day of the Lord," then it fits. If we limit all that happens, it seems far to much to fit into one 24 hour day.

The crook on which pre-millennialism rests is the use of a literal hermeneutic, so it makes sense to view the last day as the last literal day of this age before the millennial kingdom begins. To do otherwise would be allegory or a spiritualizing the use of these words to fit a system. There’s a difference between literal and literalistic hermeneutics as well.

When is the last 24 hour day in Revelation? What comes after that "last day?"

From the passages in John 6 it would seem the last day would include a resurrection, this would take place before the millennium begins.

Will there not be another 24 hour day following? Or does the sun disappear, and there are no more 24 hour days?

Eschatology is a confusing subject for me, I can’t explain the details like Judy or Vic, but the following maybe of help.
No need of the sun Rev. 21:23
"No night there" Rev. 22:5

http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append3.html
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Perhaps you mean the last day of this age, just 24 hours before the first day of the Millenium age. If so, where do you see this?

That’s sounds about right. Following a literal hermeneutic that would seem to be the case. In question 3 of your post you mention Rev. 19 and this would make sense as the final gathering of God’s elect, it could possibly be the last day before the millennium…but I need to continue to study this chapter in depth before I’d make up my mind as to it’s significance.

If you believe that the rapture of the church occurs at this last 24 hour period, then how do you explain:

I don’t believe that, I think Rev. 7:9 makes sense from a “signs†point of view, but other opinions exist and I’m just exploring them.

1) the great crowd in Rev. 7?

The crowd could be the “souls of those who were slain for the word†[Rev. 6:9]. Revelation doesn’t say how they were gathered, just that John “beheld, and, lo, a great multitude…â€Â

2) the great crowd at the wedding, in chapter 19?

Again, there’s nothing mentioned about how this multitude was gathered, but Christ is mentioned as riding a pale horse coming to judge. I don’t see Christ being mentioned in Rev. 6 or 7, but I do see the signs of His coming which is why I say prewrath makes sense.

3) The fact that we are saved from His wrath? (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

How does this apply? There’s no mentioned of being raptured in connection to being saved from God’s wrath. If we look at the passage, the context is salvation, if we are in Christ then we are safe from God’s wrathful judgement.

On the other hand, we have a statement being made in Rev. 20:5, “This is the FIRST resurrection.†If we use a literal hermeneutic with any consistency we see Rev. 20:5 is the FIRST resurrection which takes place when we see Christ coming. Joel 3:12-16 can be seen in Rev. 19:11 [Christ returns] v.15 [wrath] v.19 [armies gathered] v. 20 [Kingdom].

But I’m still learning, still studying these issues and do not speak with any authority on these matters.

Coop

~JM~