Wisdom from the Koran

[old_tractor]

You know, as Christians, we are sometimes too dismissive of Islam. We don't always see the practical and beneficial side of the Islamic faith. If only more Christians would read the Koran, perhaps they would see all the good in Islam. For example, how should a man lovingly treat a disobedient wife?

Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.
Koran 4:34

There! You see the practical advice the Koran has? ;) What if a man can't find a suitable spouse?

If any one of you cannot afford to marry a free believing woman, let him marry a slave-girl who is a believer.
Koran 4:25

Wow! Simple and practical! Just buy a wife! What if you don't like commitment?

It shall be unlawful to you to take more wives or to change your present wives for other women, though their beauty please you, except where slave girls are concerned.
Koran 35:52

Yeah...slave girls sounds pretty good if your wife has headaches a lot. ;) Of course, you shouldn't have carnal pleasure with married women. Well, except...

Also married women, except those whom you own as slaves.
Koran 4:24

Makes sense. I mean, hey, if you already own them...

Are all people equal? What does the Koran say, I wonder?

God makes this comparison. On the one hand there is a helpless slave, the property of his master. On the other a man on whom We have bestowed Our bounty, so that he gives of it both in private and in public. Are the two equal? God forbid! Most men have no knowledge.
Koran 16:73

That's right, slavery is a gift from God to the faithful. Just think, all you guys who hate cleaning the garage and the other items on the honey-do list, you can buy someone to do that for you! It's God's gift to you!

Gee, as I read this, I am struck by all the really practical advice the Koran. I wonder what the Koran would tell us to do about Muslims living in Christians countries?

Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.
Koran 9:123

Oh, my bad, that's what Muslims are commanded to do to others living around them. Sorry, never mind. ;)

 

[Oats]

You know, as Christians, we are sometimes too dismissive of Islam. We don't always see the practical and beneficial side of the Islamic faith. If only more Christians would read the Koran, perhaps they would see all the good in Islam. For example, how should a man lovingly treat a disobedient wife?



There! You see the practical advice the Koran has? ;) What if a man can't find a suitable spouse?



Wow! Simple and practical! Just buy a wife! What if you don't like commitment?



Yeah...slave girls sounds pretty good if your wife has headaches a lot. ;) Of course, you shouldn't have carnal pleasure with married women. Well, except...



Makes sense. I mean, hey, if you already own them...

Are all people equal? What does the Koran say, I wonder?



That's right, slavery is a gift from God to the faithful. Just think, all you guys who hate cleaning the garage and the other items on the honey-do list, you can buy someone to do that for you! It's God's gift to you!

Gee, as I read this, I am struck by all the really practical advice the Koran. I wonder what the Koran would tell us to do about Muslims living in Christians countries?



Oh, my bad, that's what Muslims are commanded to do to others living around them. Sorry, never mind. ;)

Wow 2

 

[old_tractor]

Wow 2

I think every Christian should read the Koran and see for themselves the wonderful things the angel Gabriel told the Prophet. I think it'd open their eyes to it's "beneficial" aspects. ;)

 

[Strangelove]

Wow 2

Mujahid seems to have started a sarcasm war and old tractor has put his teeth in.

Clash of civilisations anyone? 2

 

[Oats]

Mujahid seems to have started a sarcasm war and old tractor has put his teeth in.

Clash of civilisations anyone? 2

this is a waste


You've gotten a lot of post very quickly...whats your secret?

 

[Chris]

There is an old saying "times change but people don't" As any person who has lived their lives before us has an idea of the path to old age, any ancient writings probably have some level of wisdom to be gained as you consider thier life's story.

"The beginning of wisdom is knowing you know nothing": Some Greek philosopher dude.

"You don't really know a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes" From this you gain 2 things, understanding, and a new pair of shoes with low mileage - Hollywood.

 

[Strangelove]

this is a waste

I agree. I think tractor was just miffed that Muj came in with some not too constructive and sarcastic posts in his new thread here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f26/did-communism-win-stealth-32012/

...but I'd say he'd have done better to simply ignore and invest his time in carrying on with his excellent study.

You've gotten a lot of post very quickly...whats your secret?

Um....I spend all day in front of my PC. And I have a business that practically runs itself, so a lot of time on my hands.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

All you fine people railing against the Koran... What about the instances in the old testament which are pretty harsh? Like laws calling for the killing of Sabbath breakers... or the killing of the enemies women, children and old people (Islamic war laws strictly prohibit this, look it up)... there are lots more, but Im sure youre all familiar with your bibles and know what Im talking about.

For those of you who are thinking... "but these laws dont apply to christians under the new covenant", remember what Jesus said....

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19

 

[Strangelove]

All you fine people railing against the Koran... What about the instances in the old testament which are pretty harsh? Like laws calling for the killing of Sabbath breakers... or the killing of the enemies women, children and old people (Islamic war laws strictly prohibit this, look it up)... there are lots more, but Im sure youre all familiar with your bibles and know what Im talking about.

For those of you who are thinking... "but these laws dont apply to christians under the new covenant", remember what Jesus said....

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19

An verse often cherry picked completely out of context.

Please refer to my response in post #88 in this thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/ten-commandment-abolished-28754/index6.html
http://www.christianforums.net/f17/ten-commandment-abolished28754/index6.html
Please reply with any response in that thread.

Cheers.

Doc.

 

[Tina]

For those of you who are thinking... "but these laws dont apply to christians under the new covenant", remember what Jesus said....

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19

NICE TRY ! ... Don't confuse the Bible with the Quran which is a mambo-jumbo mishmash collection of one unrelated topic to another !


Read the whole of Matthew 5 in its proper context.

Jesus is not against speaking against observing all the requirements of the law but against hypocritical, Pharisaical legalsim. Such legalism was not the keeping of all details of the law but the hollow sham of keeping laws externally to gain merit before God while breaking them inwardly. It was following the letter of the Law while ignoring its spirit. Jesus repudiates the Pharisees' interpretation of the Law and their view of righteousness by works. He preaches a righteousness that comes only through faith in Him and His work... In the rest of the chapter, He gives six examples of Pharisaical externalism.

 

[Strangelove]

Read the whole of Matthew 5 in its proper context.

Jesus is not against speaking against observing all the requirements of the law but against hypocritical, Pharisaical legalsim. Such legalism was not the keeping of all details of the law but the hollow sham of keeping laws externally to gain merit before God while breaking them inwardly. It was following the letter of the Law while ignoring its spirit. Jesus repudiates the Pharisees' interpretation of the Law and their view of righteousness by works. He preaches a righteousness that comes only through faith in Him and His work... In the rest of the chapter, He gives six examples of Pharisaical externalism.

Exactamundo Tina.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

.Read the whole of Matthew 5 in its proper context.

Jesus is not against speaking against observing all the requirements of the law but against hypocritical, Pharisaical legalsim. Such legalism was not the keeping of all details of the law but the hollow sham of keeping laws externally to gain merit before God while breaking them inwardly. It was following the letter of the Law while ignoring its spirit. Jesus repudiates the Pharisees' interpretation of the Law and their view of righteousness by works. He preaches a righteousness that comes only through faith in Him and His work... In the rest of the chapter, He gives six examples of Pharisaical externalism.

Nice try tina... But its made clear that Jesus is addressing the "crowds", i.e regular people, as is made obvious.

1 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them. - Matthew 5:1-2


He was speaking TO the regular crowd... and the fact that he said this - " 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." proves that he was addressing regular folk and NOT the pharisees and the "teachers of the law".

Your move.

 

[old_tractor]

I agree. I think tractor was just miffed that Muj came in with some not too constructive and sarcastic posts in his new thread here:

Yeah, that's true, But, on the other hand, the vast majority of Christians never read the Koran and know nothing of it's contents. People hear statements like "Islam is a religion of peace" and have no way of testing the veracity of such statements. I think if they did, they'd have a different view on such statements.

 

[Tina]

Nice try tina... But its made clear that Jesus is addressing the "crowds", i.e regular people, as is made obvious.

1 Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them. - Matthew 5:1-2


He was speaking TO the regular crowd... and the fact that he said this - " 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." proves that he was addressing regular folk and NOT the pharisees and the "teachers of the law".

Your move.

Of course Jesus was addressing TO the regular crowd ... and he talking ABOUT the pharisees.


:D

 

[lamplady]

" ... intrerpret a arabic text without the proper training."

says it all ...

 

[theLords]

Second - I too encourager any and all christians to read the Quran, however, unless one is going to learn classical Arabic and lexicography in addition to hadeeth, Fiqh, and Seerah - I suggest they pick up whats called a "tafsir" of Quran - which is Quran with commentary by schoalrs who have masterd those fields - which is essential to understanding Quran. If you dont you will inevitably make the same mistakes OT has made when he tried to intrerpret a complex arabic text without the proper training.

the majority of scholars have interpreted this as permission for men to discipline their wives who have become "nashiz," which means rebellious, recalcitrant, or lewd. This permission is not a general permission to discipline the wife whenever the husband feels like it, but rather is meant for women who act out in very specific circumstances and threaten the harmony of the marriage.

You're not doing much to help your cause friend. This explanation and rationalization just makes it worse. "Oh, it's okay to hit your wife, as long as she's rebellious and god gives you permission, first speak to her warmly, if that doesn't work, then deny her sex and be cold towards her by separating your beds, then if she still won't obey you you can hit her lightly with a light stick but no where that will leave a mark"

Tell that to a woman of domestic abuse. The thought of being hit "lightly" in a place that no one can see or that is not delicate does not compel a woman towards the religion, or to a man practicing this religion...

I have been a rebellious, disobedient, out of control, angry, mean, hateful, spiteful "Bride" of Christ. Praise God, Jesus is the exact opposite of the Quranic husband.

Question! If Islam says that only Scholars are proper interpreters of the Quran. Then what would happen if all the scholars disappeared, along with all their works, and you had to start over again. Does that mean it would be years until someone could accurately interpret the Quran again? What hope does a person with no Muslim friends and only a Quran have of finding the way to allah? How can a Muslim's religion be between him and allah alone if he has to go through the scholars to find the correct/proper answers to his questions?

 

[theLords]

It is also written in tafsir Ar razi that this "waridaooboona" should be painless, and only used as a last resort because Muhamed(SAW) never did it, and our example should come from him first and foremost. Imam Shafi' Says not use a miswak, as that could cause pain, but rather a folded hankerchief or turban - have you ever been hit with a piece of cloth on the hand? would you call the police if your husband hit you with piece of cloth on the hand?

The psychological abuse is still there. The fact that your own husband would raise his hand to strike you instills psychological fear. This time it's a strike with a napkin on the hand, next time... ???

Raise your hand to a woman who was battered through domestic abuse. Don't strike her. Have no intentions of striking her, simply raise your hand to her and see her reaction. She'll cower in fear before you.

The heart of this command to strike you're wife is still sad and perverse.

Jesus would never do such a thing. I have been an adulterous (idolatrous) "wife" and the way He lead me to repentance is nothing like the heart of the command in the Quran. His heart is the exact opposite.

Nushuz - or rebelious or recalcatrant is meant in this context as adultery, not just a woman in a bad mood. So as you can see, these recomaendations for dealing with a Nushuz wife (adulterous) are pretty leinant, and are examples of extreme measures for extreme situations.

So if your wife commits adultery slap her with a napkin on her hand?

Now its just borderline silly! Why would allah put such a frivolous and useless command in the Quran?

Now to your question on scholars - if all of the scholars died out,

you didn't answer the heart of my questions. i can re-word them if it helps

Now if a person chooses to ignore the scholarly oppinion, the oppinion of those who have been trained in the various sciences, then the result will be much like Old Tractors interpretation, where a laymen with no knowledge of things reads an english mistranslation, and begins to act on his own faulty logic. He could perhaps use the excuse that "Allah guides through His Holy Spirit, so anything I do is inspired by this guidance" and that would be the sign of one who has decided to submit to himself, rather than Allah - a mistake past religions have fallen into, as they abolished all safeguards from those who would interpret without knowledge, and were led astray by their whims and desires. They take translations of translations and interpret them according to their current understandings, and use Gods Guldance as an excuse - leading them to have one text with a wide spectrum of interpretations - all claiming to be that of the Holy Guide.

No, I'm saying what hope is there for someone who lives on a deserted island and only has access to the Quran. How can that man properly become a Muslim?

I don't think you understand the Holy Spirit, who He is, or how He functions. Yes, indeed, there are many people who do what they will with God's Word, and woe to them, may God's abundant mercy be on their heads. May His kindness flood them...

A Christian, who is falling on his face before the Lord, asking the Holy Spirit for wisdom and truth, is given Truth. The heart of the Lord is revealed to Him. The Scripture confirms it multiple times. The words become living life inside of that Christian.

Don't confuse that with crazy people who spout out scripture verses like autobots trying desperately to make others believe it's "there way or the high way." Arrogance and quarreling are not fruits of the Spirit. The first red flag that the author of "God says this in the Bible!" Is not operating from within the Holy Spirit, thus rending his interpretation wrong.

when you were first told that baptism is a requirement, you simply submitted to this,

Actually, baptism isn't a requirement. It's a public declaration that one is a follower of Jesus Christ. No one in my life told me to get baptized. Jesus told me to get baptized. I followed a direct command. Scripture helped, but the fact that the Lord, personally, told me to get baptized was what convicted my heart to get baptized. Who can disobey a direct command of God?

When you were first told that Jesus was God, you submitted to this without question,

Actually, I became an apostate.

I became a believer when I met the Lord Jesus, the Bible had nothing to do with it.

When Paul tells you about the "gifts", you submit to his rule, and accept the gifts as true.

I submit to them as true because I have experienced them in my walk with Christ. I once went to a Church service with my friend and a prophet told her, her entire life. She wept like a baby. Needless to say she dedicated her life to Christ then and there. I have experienced the gifts in my walk with Christ which is why I believe in them. Even the gifts I didn't accept as gifts the Lord helped me accept through dreams! (aww, He's so sweet)

I still don't get what taleeq means though

 

[pjt]

[QUOTE= I too encourager any and all christians to read the Quran, however, unless one is going to learn classical Arabic and lexicography in addition to hadeeth, Fiqh, and Seerah

-The husband is only allowed to use his hand or the equivalent of a miswak, a tooth-stick. Furthermore, he may not strike in anger, beat, bruise, or harm his wife. Rather, he gives her a symbolical tap with this very light object. He may not strike her face or any other delicate part of the body. And once again, this is permission, meaning he does not have to do this, but is merely allowed if circumstances warrant.

Then if that fails, he is allowed to forsake marital intimacy, that is, sexual intercourse,"



I don`t encourage Christians to read the Koran especially to the extent of learning arabic. Time would be better spent learning Hebrew and Greek to read the original Biblical texts. People who are trained to find counterfeit money never study the conterfeit. They only study the real money so when conterfeit comes they spot it right off. Christians should do the same. Know the Bible so when conterfeit like the Koran bears its head, we immediately see its falsehood. I don`t have to read the book of mormon, koran, buddha, etc. to know they are false.


Beat her with a toothpick? That`s absurd. The woman would laugh in his face and THAT is why it does not happen! I saw a muslim woman talking about the phenomena of electrical cords. All over the world, whereever muslims go, there is the COMMON story according to this muslim woman, of muslim men beating their wives with electrical cords. I doubt many if any muslim men pull out a toothpick to beat their wives unless it is to poke the wife with the sharp end.


The koran says to withhold love and affection (physical intimacy) from a wife to discipline her but the Bible specifically says a spouse must NEVER do this. I believe the Bible is right. Worse than beating is to withhold love. Withholding love to get one`s way is emotional battery and manipulation. It is much more cruel and demeaning than a physical slap.

 

[theLords]

I don`t encourage Christians to read the Koran especially to the extent of learning arabic. Time would be better spent learning Hebrew and Greek to read the original Biblical texts. People who are trained to find counterfeit money never study the conterfeit. They only study the real money so when conterfeit comes they spot it right off. Christians should do the same. Know the Bible so when conterfeit like the Koran bears its head, we immediately see its falsehood. I don`t have to read the book of mormon, koran, buddha, etc. to know they are false.

My dad, always, says this to me! This has blessed my heart tremendously, God bless you PJT! I'm gonna go give my dad a hug now, lol

The koran says to withhold love and affection (physical intimacy) from a wife to discipline her but the Bible specifically says a spouse must NEVER do this. I believe the Bible is right. Worse than beating is to withhold love. Withholding love to get one`s way is emotional battery and manipulation. It is much more cruel and demeaning than a physical slap.

You reached the heart of the matter here PJT. Withholding love is such a CRIPPLING form of abuse. When polled, those who were simultaneously pysically abused and ignored (withholding love) those people said they would rather be beat then ignored!

How incredibly sad

 

[theLords]

Bottom line is - Islam does not allow a man to beat his wife.

Yes, it does!

Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them.
Koran 4:34

The proper way for you to state things is, "Yes, the Quran says you can beat your wife, but there are various regulations, and rulings, and guidelines for doing so."

You explained those regulations and guidelines. It's your religion, and if your god deals with his followers in that way, okay.

But the fact that your god would okay such a thing is incredibly sad. The fact that he would tell a husband to withhold love from a wife is also so sad. I know you said that the primary focus is love, but what's sad is that your god says "if that doesn't work, try this...."

It's incredibly sad

Thank you for reminding me of the incredible love that Jesus has for His beloved Bride. It's nice to have this reminder and reflect on how much He loves a sinner like me.

Now on to taqleed - Muslims take our religion from those with superior religious knowledge - this should be common sense - christians do the same. When you accept the tennets of mainstream protestantism, you are following the "fatwas" of those before you - you agree with their understandings, you see scripture to support their understandings, but they were the understandings of men with more knowledge then you. No different for Muslims, The Quran is written in classical Arabic, which differes from modern Arabic - it makes refernece to historical events - it makes reference to cultural customs and practices - it has abrogated parts - all this must be undwerstood and studied in order to capture the full meaning of the words within it - without them, you will be lost.

You can't make this generalization about Christianity. It may be that way in Islam, and that's fine, that's the religion of another god. But when applying this to Christians this is incredibly false. All knowledge comes straight from the Lord. There are teachers and scholars who one can go to to learn from, yes, but all knowledge comes straight from the Lord. If a Christian is seeking men for answers, and not the Lord, that Christian is in serious danger.

The Lord brought me to Himself, most Christians pushed me away. I am taught by the Hand of the Lord, not by men. There was a time in my walk with the Lord that I didn't read the Bible. I was in constant fellowship with the Lord. He was teaching me Himself. I thought reading it was boring and I told my Lord that. One random day He told me "Read your Bible." So I began to do so. I can't even explain the shock I experienced when I would read the Bible and lo and behold something the Lord had personally taught me or told me or explained to me was written down in the Bible! It was amazing. Other times, I would share with other Christians what the Lord had told me, and they would show me where I could find it written in the Bible. I still experience this to this day! It's amazing! That is the love of my Lord. Beautiful!

An example of this is has been put forward by PJT for me - he thinks hitting a woman with a "toothpick" is rediculous - I agree - he read the translation of "miswak" and thought of a toothpick - he has no reason not to, in english a "tooth stick" is a tooth pick

Actually, it's because in one of your previous posts you used the word tooth pick to describe the arabic word.

You make reference that you "walk" with polycarp, and eranius, and Paul - this is clearly a metaphore for some spiritual connection you have with these forefathers of modern christianity - Im not talking about that - you say Jesus(AS) tells you things when you need to know them - this is highly interpetive, and the reason why christianity has sooooo many varying sub-groups each inspired by the "Holy Spirit" - In Islam, we are a legal religion, we do beleive in spiritual guidance and "The Holy Spirit", but we do not accept this guidance as evidence to change a law or make a new one. We do not accept the "Holy Spirit" as evidence - eveidence must be of the worldly kind to be made into a law - and the law is basicly what we are talking about.

No, no, no, no, no, my dear. That is not what I said. I said I walk with Christ. Polycarp, Eranius, and Paul are all dead.

My Lord is alive and kickin' :D

I do not have any spiritual connection to any forefathers, that's right out demonic.

I didn't say Jesus tells me things when I need to know them. So I don't know what you're referring to here, but strangely enough, that principle is Biblical!

You do not accept the Holy Spirit, because you do not know the Holy Spirit. If you knew the Holy Spirit you would fall on your face in wonder!

The difference between your god and my Lord is that He teaches us to be "in the world but not of it." Evidence must be of the spiritual kind, the worldly kind comes from satan because he is the prince of this world. The Holy Spirit is a safe guard, and our Protector from the wolf.

There are major fundemental differences in our religions! You're line of Islamic thinking, and Quran clearly show the major differences in you're allah and my Lord. The differences are as clear as night and day! The way our God's deal with us is like night and day as well.