Women Pastors in the Pulpit............what sayest thou?

[Kidron]

Now, this is an interesting topic, isnt it?

Ive 2 best friends who belong to different churches which both have a woman as the pastor.

Is this biblical, .....unbiblical?
Is this heresy or "out of order"?

Well, im an evangelist and a teacher and a minstrel, and ive been to seminary and ive studied the word for a long time.
I know what it says about this issue, but, im someone who would not condemn a woman if she felt called to be a pastor.
I would not encourage her to do it, because i can find no scriptural evidence to support this position as given by Paul.
As far as i can tell, Paul is pretty negative specific about women even being teachers in the body of Christ.....but on the other hand, i have to realize that Paul was also a Jew, a Pharisee, who was steeped in a very deep jewish theocracy and middle eastern tradition which did not accept the Liferole of a woman to be anything other then a baby maker or ministry helper, pretty much..
Maybe by now, had Paul lived another 2000 years, he would have softened his positioned a bit about woman being "teachers", as he said it was "him" who didnt let a woman teach, ....he never said this was a revelation from God he was sharing.
Did you notice this???
Would Paul in 2012 say that a woman cannot be a Pastor?..........yeah..
And the bible says clearly that a pastor/bishop is to be the , "husband of one wife"...
So, im pretty sure that eliminates a woman as a Pastor/Bishop..
So, unless you are a transsexual/transgender-minded girl you are not going to qualify for that scripture and if you are a transsexual/transgender-minded, you probably should not try to qualify, as a matter of fact, im certain you should not.

On the other hand, a woman can be in the ministry as any of the other 4 fold ministers.......she can evangelize, she can be an apostle, a teacher, (tho Paul might argue with this one)...
Certainly she can be a missionary, tho missionary/apostle are the back and front of the same coin.
She can do everything but be a pastor or perhaps a deacon, and yes there are some who are Pastors/deacons, however, this is not supported by Paul or the scriptures.
Does God allow it?........yeah, but this is not the same as him condoning it or approving it....tho he might bless it..... (tho I really cant answer that one.)
...

Would i go to hear a woman preach?.... Sure, i would go hear Joyce Meyers if she came to Israel, however, Joyce does not claim to be a pastor., and this is because she understands God's perspective.
Would i go to hear the women pastors who i mentioned that pastor my 2 best friends?.... Sure i would..
However, I would have a problem with joining their church.
And if ither of the those women asked me my opinion about their position, i would just tell them what Paul says...
I would say........."are you a male by birth husband of one wife"?..........well, until you are, next subject please......"
However, i would not try to talk them out of their situation.
And the reason is......i think that (if they are really born again and have their NT doctrine in order) they are doing a good work, even if the work they are doing is not completely in alignment with Paul.
After all, Jesus himself said that if someone is not against us they are for us, and certainly a woman pastor who has given her life to the Lord is not against him.
Maybe she is out of order, but at least she is on the right side.





K

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve." (1 Timothy 2:12 NIV1984)

This for me removes all the cultural points about the subject. There's no sense in debating it in regard to culture since Paul makes his appeal directly to the order of headship God created from the beginning.

But God bless our very talented and truly inspired women who comfort and edify the body of Christ. It's just that God has not ordained for them to do that from an official position of authority over the church. That's all.

 

[handy]

I think the Scriptures are pretty clear that women are not to hold positions of authority. As for teaching... if the male leadership of the church believes that woman gifted with teaching can present the message they believe is God's vision, then I think they can utilize her gifts... this is different than saying a woman is the teacher. I hope people can see the difference here. Sort of like when Aaron spoke for Moses... Moses was God's chosen leader, but because he had some kind of speech impediment (or whatever it was) Aaron spoke for him. I believe women can do the same in the church.

I find it interesting that so many have this idea that Paul was anti-woman... Paul was the most pro-woman man in the Bible outside of Jesus Himself. Paul was never hesitant to use the many gifted women that he knew for ministry purposes. He sent Phoebe to Rome with instructions to the Romans to do whatever she told them to do and commended the many women he worked in ministry with.

But, Paul also knew that God created men and women to fulfill different roles. This truth is reflected in his teachings as well. I don't think Paul would have any different stand today, 2000 years later.

One of the reasons why Paul said women should not hold authority is because Eve was deceived by the serpent. I do believe that women, because we tend to be more intuitive and more swayed by emotion, are also more prone to deception. I find most of the churches that are bogged down in deception today also have women pastors and bishops.

However, I do look at this subject much in the same way I look at "once saved, always saved", baptism and predestination... a subject in which sincere bible believing Christians can come to different conclusions about.

 

[Adullam]

If a man wishes to learn something from a spiritual woman he should look at her example of quiet submission and then do likewise with the Lord.

 

[farouk]

handy:

Interesting comments.

I guess equality and headship being both complementary and distinct can be seen by way of example in the Trinity. In 1 Cor. 11, God (the Father) is the head of Christ. In Philippians 2, the Son 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God'.

It's all a revealed mystery in Scripture.

 

[Kidron]

I think the Scriptures are pretty clear that women are not to hold positions of authority. As for teaching... if the male leadership of the church believes that woman gifted with teaching can present the message they believe is God's vision, then I think they can utilize her gifts...

I think its interesting that with the exception of Benny Hinn, almost all the famous TV Evangelist's wives ither co-host their show or go out with their husbands and hold meetings.

This is different then Joyce Meyers, whose husband does not consider himself a called minister.
So, in one sense she is not usurping his authority, yet she is the biggest draw of all the TV "preachers who are 99% maleness.
Joyce has the largest TV ministry of them all.
She's "bigger" then Copeland, Osteen, Parsley, Dollar, TJ Jakes, etc.
Joyce is ..."the man".. when it comes to counting the numbers of those who tune in and those who actually go to these types of civic arena meetings.
Interesting...



K

 

[farouk]

Joyce Meyer is a real character; some people might say that she has an endearing warmth about her.

Some of her earthy humor is amazing.

Some of her huge earrings are amazing, too.

Joyce Meyer is unique.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Meh, there are many people who came to Christ through the preachings, teachings, or actions of a woman in authority in church. Is there salvation somehow invalid? Of course not.

The Bible has plenty of examples of women in leadership roles.

Also, just because Eve was sinful, it doesn't make all women less than men. Remember, Adam also ate the fruit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One of the reasons why Paul said women should not hold authority is because Eve was deceived by the serpent. I do believe that women, because we tend to be more intuitive and more swayed by emotion, are also more prone to deception. I find most of the churches that are bogged down in deception today also have women pastors and bishops.

These are my thoughts exactly, but because I'm a man I rarely share them in mixed company.

Thank you, that you, a woman, would recognize and share this honest and frank truth. It elevates my respect for women all the more, not tears it down as some women might be afraid it would do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think its interesting that with the exception of Benny Hinn, almost all the famous TV Evangelist's wives ither co-host their show or go out with their husbands and hold meetings.

This is different then Joyce Meyers, whose husband does not consider himself a called minister.
So, in one sense she is not usurping his authority, yet she is the biggest draw of all the TV "preachers who are 99% maleness.
Joyce has the largest TV ministry of them all.
She's "bigger" then Copeland, Osteen, Parsley, Dollar, TJ Jakes, etc.
Joyce is ..."the man".. when it comes to counting the numbers of those who tune in and those who actually go to these types of civic arena meetings.
Interesting...



K

Joyce is very quick to point out that she is in complete submission to her husband. And all indications are she really is.

 

[Kidron]

If a man wishes to learn something from a spiritual woman he should look at her example of quiet submission and then do likewise with the Lord.

Im not certain ive ever met a woman, Christian or otherwise, who exists in a constant state of "quiet submission".
(no disrespect intended to all the quietly submissive ladies here on the forum who have argued with me like wildcats....(and you know i love you sisters in Christ XXXX <>< <>< <><)

However if a man wants to learn from a spiritual woman, he should read the biography and some of the books on prayer of/by Jeanne Guyon





K .

 

[handy]

Im not certain ive ever met a woman, Christian or otherwise, who exists in a constant state of "quiet submission".
(no disrespect intended to all the quietly submissive ladies here on the forum who have argued with me like wildcats....(and you know i love you sisters in Christ XXXX <>< <>< <><)

Had to laugh at this...

Meh, there are many people who came to Christ through the preachings, teachings, or actions of a woman in authority in church. Is there salvation somehow invalid? Of course not.

The Bible has plenty of examples of women in leadership roles.

Also, just because Eve was sinful, it doesn't make all women less than men. Remember, Adam also ate the fruit.

That people can come to Christ through a woman's presentation of the Gospel has never been in question... (well, maybe not never, but at least not here)... all disciples of Christ, women and men, are to preach the Gospel and the Gospel will not return void.

And, there are certainly examples of women in the Bible who were leaders.. Deborah always tops the list, as well as Phoebe, Priscilla, and others...

But, this doesn't negate the fact that God has order and also that God ordained roles for men and women. With the exception of Deborah, all the women leaders in the Bible were working under the authority of men. This doesn't relegate women to second class citizenship by any means... but, when all of us, men and women alike, follow God's plan in this, the church is pretty unstoppable. We see this in the New Testament.

Unfortunately, sometime after John penned Revelations... sometime after those early church leaders were gone... the old bigotries towards women crept in until we see by the middle ages women's gifts were suppressed and ignored and women were being treated as chattel even in the church. The modern feminist movement was a response to that sin... but it swings to much to the other side. We need to always follow God's plans for us.. and God's plan is that women are to exercise their many gifts and talents under the headship of men.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path." (Isaiah 3:12 NIV1984)

This could be understood two ways. Either the leadership of youths and women is what is leading Judah astray - or - God has no choice but to install youths and women over his people when the men who are supposed to do that drop the ball.

This is the verse I always think of when people bring up Deborah. Apparently God could not find a worthy man to lead his people during that time and raised up a very competent and capable woman to do the job--to the disgrace of us males who should be doing that but are not fit for the task.

 

[handy]

"Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path." (Isaiah 3:12 NIV1984)

This could be understood two ways. Either the leadership of youths and women is what is leading Judah astray - or - God has no choice but to install youths and women over his people when the men who are supposed to do that drop the ball.

This is the verse I always think of when people bring up Deborah. Apparently God could not find a worthy man to lead his people during that time and raised up a very competent and capable woman to do the job--to the disgrace of us males who should be doing that but are not fit for the task.

I've seen this brought up about Deborah... that the only reason why she was put as judge over Israel was because God could not find a worthy man... but the Bible does not teach this at all.... there is no hint of any such reason in the account of Deborah that God searched and could not find a male to judge, therefore chose Deborah...

Since Deborah judged Israel around the turn of the 1100 century BC and Isaiah didn't show up until several hundred years later... it seems unlikely that Isaiah's prophecy had anything to do with Deborah... especially since Deborah's rule brought Israel a major military victory then 40 years of peace... Isaiah's prophecy concerns a curse, not a time of blessing.

 

[joethemechanic]

Maybe it's just me, but something about the mannish haircut and that she is wearing pants,,,,,,,,,,,,,


It just makes me think Gloria Steinem might be whispering in her ear

 

[farouk]

Maybe it's just me, but something about the mannish haircut and that she is wearing pants,,,,,,,,,,,,,


It just makes me think Gloria Steinem might be whispering in her ear

Oh Joe, you must know that many really gracious wearers of pants are feminine.

And many Godly women choose a gently minimalist haircut for an understated and modest effect.

 

[joethemechanic]

Oh Joe, you must know that many really gracious wearers of pants are feminine.

And many Godly women choose a gently minimalist haircut for an understated and modest effect.

Deuteronomy 22:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

 

[farouk]

Deuteronomy 22:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Joe, with all the gracious Godly women who happen wear pants, for you to quote the abomination word at them is just unwise and rude.

 

[Kidron]

Maybe it's just me, but something about the mannish haircut and that she is wearing pants,,,,,,,,,,,,,


It just makes me think Gloria Steinem might be whispering in her ear

For my money, if im going to watch a TV preacher, i'll go with Charles Stanley or David Jeremiah, or Joseph Prince.
But, i have to hand it to Joyce Meyers.
When she was a teen she was raped by her father at least 200 times.
She was kicked out of a car unto the side of the road while the car was moving by her first husband who drove her to some desolated place miles and miles from her city and just kicked her physically out of the car and left her bruised and torn by the side of the road in short pants, no shoes, in the summer time when it was hot.
From THIS Beginning, this woman has become THE most watched and followed TV preacher of all time other then Billy Graham.
Thats GRACE.
No one has that much drive and stick and bounce back unless God is in the mix.
I have noticed that she does not preach... "lets all feel good while doing nothing for Christ"... typical TV preacher slop, and ive never heard her say that by giving money God will auto-bless.
She does not go there when ive ever heard her, and i appreciate that very much.




AP

 

[joethemechanic]

A Man's haircut, wearing pants, and trying to fill a role that God intended for a man as a preacher,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I smell a feminist.

And with the history of rape and getting thrown out of cars,,,,,,,,,

I would suspect at the very least she is somewhat misandric