Works that come from the Pharisees

[Heidi]

I'll try one omore time, then if people still don't know the difference between the works of the Pharisees and the "works" that come from Christians, then there's no point in trying to explain it to them any more because they're not capable of understanding the difference between the Pharisees and Christians.

So those who believe that works save like the Pharisees do, please explain the difference between the works of the Pharisees and the "works" of born again Christians? What is the major difference between them? Thank you.

 

[unred typo]

Many who claim to be born again children of God are like the Pharisees that John refused to baptize:

Matthew 3:7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

They were banking on their position as children of God or Abraham to get them a place in heaven, just as some in church do today. Jesus said our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. That was not very hard to do. They were evil hypocrites for the most part.

They were vain and loved the praise of men more than praise from God:
Matthew 6:2Therefore when you do your alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

16Moreover when you fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.


Matthew 15: 3But he answered and said unto them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

8This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Matthew 22 :18But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Jesus also accused them of teaching error:
Matthew 16:12Then understood they how that he bid them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Worst of all, he called them vipers, just as John the Baptist did before him. Why did he call them vipers?

Matthew 12:14
But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

Mark 14:1
After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

Luke 23:10
And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore you shall receive the greater damnation.

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall you scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

They were not really righteous. They were murderers of the just, persecutors of the poor and robbers of widows and the helpless. They caused the death of innocent people. Vipers do that.

Now, what was your point about Pharisees, Heidi? You want to know the differences between the works of the Pharisees and the works of followers of Christ? Christians love one another, are humble, forgiving, they don’t murder people or plot how to put them to death, they don’t steal from the poor and widows, they don’t stone followers of Christ or have them crucified, they don’t refuse to hear the words of Jesus and do what he says. Pharisees that Jesus condemned did all those evil things and not the good things. The difference is quite obvious.

 

[Heidi]

And why can born again Christians be humble and loving and the Pharisees couldn't? I'll give you a hint; where does genuine fruit come from, man himself or the Holy Spirit? ;-)

What do you think the Holy Spirit does for a person? Where do you think good works come from? Another hint: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 4:4, Galatians 5:22.

And lastly, where does the bible say that we can become unborn again of the Holy Spirit?

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi on Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:27 pm

And why can born again Christians be humble and loving and the Pharisees couldn't? I'll give you a hint; where does genuine fruit come from, man himself or the Holy Spirit?

You don’t have to be born again to be humble and loving. The Pharisees could have been humble and loving if they had chosen to be and some of them might have been honest seekers like Nicodemas. Jesus was condemning those that went around trying to find fault with him and his teaching. They were the evil ones who sought to kill him. They could have repented and been followers of Christ but they loved the praise of men more.

Why is that? Because they have free will and they choose their attitudes and their paths in life.

Just as in the parable of the sower and the seed, as we have just discussed in another thread. Some seed falls on good ground and some falls on hard ground. When the words of Christ fall on open hearts, those people listen to his words and take them it in, letting what he said become part of their lives and change their bad attitudes and they repent of sin. These words of Christ grow in their hearts to produce love and good works.

quote by Heidi
What do you think the Holy Spirit does for a person? Where do you think good works come from? Another hint: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 4:4, Galatians 5:22.

The Holy Spirit takes the words of Christ and interprets them for us, making them real and practical in our own lives. He teaches us how to love and leads us to do good works. Just like kids in school, some pay attention, some don’t.

1 John 1:9 is not about works, Heidi. It is about our failure to obey and the remedy for that. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.†Confession is not really ‘good works.’ Good works are deeds of love and faith.

1 John 4:4 doesn’t talk about where good works come from either. It says: “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.†it isn’t talking about works of love and faith but how we overcome error and false teaching.

Galatians 5:24 is right on though:
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.†When we get our self centered lusts out of the way, we are free to love and do good works for others.

quote by Heidi
And lastly, where does the bible say that we can become unborn again of the Holy Spirit?

Aren’t you off topic? If you want to derail your own thread, no problem.

We don’t say we are unborn again, we say we are cut off, fell away, become unfruitful, damned, perish, cast out, cursed, obtain wrath, are punished with everlasting destruction or die. It is not that we become unborn again but that life is withdrawn from us. He that has the Son has life, he that has not the son has not life. Go back to the parable of the seed. When the seed sprouts, there is life in the soil, but when the conditions of the soil won’t support that life, it dies. The words of Christ may bring life for a time but then when the word is neglected, stomped on or crowded out, it doesn’t bring fruit that endures unto eternity.

If you think the fruit is not important to our eternal life, think about the Sower. Does he bring the soil into the storehouse or the fruit? The only part of you that will be saved is the part you invest into the Son.

 

[stranger]

I'll try one omore time, then if people still don't know the difference between the works of the Pharisees and the "works" that come from Christians, then there's no point in trying to explain it to them any more because they're not capable of understanding the difference between the Pharisees and Christians.

So those who believe that works save like the Pharisees do, please explain the difference between the works of the Pharisees and the "works" of born again Christians? What is the major difference between them? Thank you.

Hi Heidi,

Nice to meet you again. The question about the Pharisees is an interesting one. They opposed our Lord and were concerned about external appearances amongst other things. They also did not believe in Him and relied upon the privilege of being a Jew and thus having the Law that would lead them to salvation. There were other points of disagreement between the Pharisees and Jesus but what I wanted to suggest was this:

The Pharisees walked in the flesh. For this reason any Christian who walks in the flesh is and has the capacity to be a Pharisee- hopefully the Spirit of God will convict them of this and lead them in paths of life everlasting.

 

[unred typo]

by stranger on Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:51 pm
Hi Heidi,

Nice to meet you again. The question about the Pharisees is an interesting one. They opposed our Lord and were concerned about external appearances amongst other things. They also did not believe in Him and relied upon the privilege of being a Jew and thus having the Law that would lead them to salvation. There were other points of disagreement between the Pharisees and Jesus but what I wanted to suggest was this:

The Pharisees walked in the flesh. For this reason any Christian who walks in the flesh is and has the capacity to be a Pharisee- hopefully the Spirit of God will convict them of this and lead them in paths of life everlasting.

I'm sure this is the approved answer here. I would like some clarification. What do you mean by “walked in the flesh� Do you not see that the major point that Jesus had against them was they were doing evil, hateful deeds and pretending to be righteous while they were doing them? They were lying, thieving, murdering scoundrels who twisted God’s words in order to take advantage of others and they needed to repent.

When you say they “walked in the flesh†it almost sounds like you believe their biggest crime was their pride and you have not mentioned their heinous crimes against the people. They found ways to kill the just and say it was God’s will. Is that not their major difference with Jesus and his true followers? The Pharisees killed in God‘s name, and Christians died in his name.

 

[Heidi]

quote by Heidi on Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:27 pm

And why can born again Christians be humble and loving and the Pharisees couldn't? I'll give you a hint; where does genuine fruit come from, man himself or the Holy Spirit?

You don’t have to be born again to be humble and loving. The Pharisees could have been humble and loving if they had chosen to be and some of them might have been honest seekers like Nicodemas. Jesus was condemning those that went around trying to find fault with him and his teaching. They were the evil ones who sought to kill him. They could have repented and been followers of Christ but they loved the praise of men more.

Why is that? Because they have free will and they choose their attitudes and their paths in life.

Just as in the parable of the sower and the seed, as we have just discussed in another thread. Some seed falls on good ground and some falls on hard ground. When the words of Christ fall on open hearts, those people listen to his words and take them it in, letting what he said become part of their lives and change their bad attitudes and they repent of sin. These words of Christ grow in their hearts to produce love and good works.


[quote:76d5f]quote by Heidi
What do you think the Holy Spirit does for a person? Where do you think good works come from? Another hint: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 4:4, Galatians 5:22.

The Holy Spirit takes the words of Christ and interprets them for us, making them real and practical in our own lives. He teaches us how to love and leads us to do good works. Just like kids in school, some pay attention, some don’t.

1 John 1:9 is not about works, Heidi. It is about our failure to obey and the remedy for that. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.†Confession is not really ‘good works.’ Good works are deeds of love and faith.

1 John 4:4 doesn’t talk about where good works come from either. It says: “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.†it isn’t talking about works of love and faith but how we overcome error and false teaching.

Galatians 5:24 is right on though:
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.†When we get our self centered lusts out of the way, we are free to love and do good works for others.

quote by Heidi
And lastly, where does the bible say that we can become unborn again of the Holy Spirit?

Aren’t you off topic? If you want to derail your own thread, no problem.

We don’t say we are unborn again, we say we are cut off, fell away, become unfruitful, damned, perish, cast out, cursed, obtain wrath, are punished with everlasting destruction or die. It is not that we become unborn again but that life is withdrawn from us. He that has the Son has life, he that has not the son has not life. Go back to the parable of the seed. When the seed sprouts, there is life in the soil, but when the conditions of the soil won’t support that life, it dies. The words of Christ may bring life for a time but then when the word is neglected, stomped on or crowded out, it doesn’t bring fruit that endures unto eternity.

If you think the fruit is not important to our eternal life, think about the Sower. Does he bring the soil into the storehouse or the fruit? The only part of you that will be saved is the part you invest into the Son.[/quote:76d5f]

Wrong again. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, man gives credit to himself for his good works because they come from his sinful nature since he doesn't have the Spirit inside of him. And that's what the Pharisees did. They performed "good deeds" to honor themselves because they didn't come from the indwelling Holy Spirit, which is called self-righteousness, not the righteousness that comes from God through the indwelling Holy Spirit. They cleaned the cup from the outside without Jesus having cleaned it from the inside. And that's why Jesus condemned the Pharisees.

So since he claims he is good without the Holy Spirit, that is pride, not humility. Jesus said "No one is good but God alone." "There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God."

Edited by mod.

 

[unred typo]

OK, Heidi, answer just this:


If God makes people good, and he wants all people to be good, and he can do anything according to his will, why doesn’t he?



.

 

[Heidi]

OK, Heidi, answer just this:


If God makes people good, and he wants all people to be good, and he can do anything according to his will, why doesn’t he?
.

You need to read and study the bible, not just the few verses you already know because Romans 9:11-25 answers your question, particularly verses 18-25 along with Romans 11:32 and Romans 8:20.

So God wants all to be saved just like Christian parents want our children to be saved. But parents, like God, know that our children have to come to their own understanding of why they need God. So God allows them to disobey him so they can come to Him for redemption just like we parents allow our children to make their own mistakes.

So the whole key is that since none of of knows if God is drawing us, we are completely accountable for our actions, attitudes, and beliefs.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi:
You need to read and study the bible, not just the few verses you already know because Romans 9:11-25 answers your question, particularly verses 18-25 along with Romans 11:32 and Romans 8:20.

So God wants all to be saved just like Christian parents want our children to be saved. But parents, like God, know that our children have to come to their own understanding of why they need God. So God allows them to disobey him so they can come to Him for redemption just like we parents allow our children to make their own mistakes.

So the whole key is that since none of of knows if God is drawing us, we are completely accountable for our actions, attitudes, and beliefs.

Since you are such a fountain of knowledge, and I cannot possibly understand the things of God, let me just ask you some easy questions. Are all people God’s children? Does God draw all people? If God draws us, do we have a choice or do we have to come to him?

 

[Heidi]

quote by Heidi:
You need to read and study the bible, not just the few verses you already know because Romans 9:11-25 answers your question, particularly verses 18-25 along with Romans 11:32 and Romans 8:20.

So God wants all to be saved just like Christian parents want our children to be saved. But parents, like God, know that our children have to come to their own understanding of why they need God. So God allows them to disobey him so they can come to Him for redemption just like we parents allow our children to make their own mistakes.

So the whole key is that since none of of knows if God is drawing us, we are completely accountable for our actions, attitudes, and beliefs.

Since you are such a fountain of knowledge, and I cannot possibly understand the things of God, let me just ask you some easy questions. Are all people God’s children? Does God draw all people? If God draws us, do we have a choice or do we have to come to him?

No. Once again, if you read the bible you will see what Jesus says; "for many are invited but few are chosen." So I'm not a wealth of knowledge, the bible is a wealth of knowledge. All you have to do is read and believe it instead of competing with others for who is the most knowledgable. :roll: Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, so don't make it a competition. Just read and believe every verse in the bible.

If you read the bible, you will also find out that one cannot resist God's call. Romans 11:29, "For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." When God gives us faith, we can't not believe. Otherwise, God didn't give us faith. So Grace is irresistible.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi:
No. Once again, if you read the bible you will see what Jesus says; "for many are invited but few are chosen." So I'm not a wealth of knowledge, the bible is a wealth of knowledge. All you have to do is read and believe it instead of competing with others for who is the most knowledgable. Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, so don't make it a competition. Just read and believe every verse in the bible.

Yours in Christ,
Heidi

Let me assure you that I am not interested in competing with you over who is right. I would sincerely like for you to understand what I see as the folly of what you seem to believe the Bible is saying. The Bible is not wrong but you have misunderstood what it means.

I asked three questions and you gave me one answer. Is it ‘no’ to all three questions? I’ll rephrase them. Let me do an old AVBunyan tactic. I’ll number them for you this time. :wink:

1. You said: “So God wants all to be saved just like Christian parents want our children to be saved.†Are you saying that: A. all people are God’s children? Or B. all people are not God’s children?

2. You said, “So the whole key is that since none of us knows if God is drawing us, we are completely accountable for our actions, attitudes, and beliefs.†Does God draw all people? If not, why not?

3. This one you answered: I asked: If God draws us, do we have a choice or do we have to come to him? Let me understand your answer better.

You said: “If you read the bible, you will also find out that one cannot resist God's call. Romans 11:29, "For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." When God gives us faith, we can't not believe. Otherwise, God didn't give us faith. So Grace is irresistible.â€Â

First, ‘irrevocable’ doesn’t mean ‘irresistible’. It means that God’s call is impossible to revoke or formally cancel and impossible for him to make null and void by withdrawing, recalling, or reversing it. God’s call stands sure and will not be withdrawn. No one can change it. That doesn’t mean we have to answer it, only that we can’t stop God’s call from going out to the world and God is not going to take back what he promised when he made the offer.

Second, if God gives us faith, which we cannot resist, we didn’t gain faith of our own free will, correct?

According to you, all we have learned in our lives as God’s children is that we need God and have to come to him for redemption. We were and are still in rebellion to God, correct? If I understood you correctly, you said basically;
‘We come to our own understanding of why we need God. So God allows us to disobey him so we can come to Him for redemption just like we parents allow our children to make their own mistakes.’

Then you said: “So the whole key is that since none of us knows if God is drawing us, we are completely accountable for our actions, attitudes, and beliefs.â€Â

If we can’t draw near to God without him drawing us, then it is God himself who is responsible to bring us to him. We are not able. That means God is responsible to bring us to himself, not us, correct? So how does our not knowing who is being drawn, change the fact that God is responsible to bring us to him? Do you know what ’accountable’ means? It means it is our own fault if we come to him or not. But you say that we are not able to come on our own and we are not able to resist coming if God draws us. Why should anyone be punished for what they can’t do, and why should anyone be rewarded for doing what they really didn’t choose to do?

This is not rational. This is complete double talk. Do you know what God says about those who are double minded? He says they are unstable in all their ways. Do you know what ‘unstable’ means?

 

[Heidi]

Again, you have shown that you do not believe the bible. Look at Romans 9:18, Then look at wht people ask Paul in the next verse; :Then why does God still blame us?" to which paul replied; "Who are you O man to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to who formed it: "Why did you make me like this?" Does not the potter have the right to form out of the same lump of clay those for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Apparently, you don't think so. We werre all born in sin. Could we help it? No. Did anyone choose to be born? No. Did anyone choose his parents? No. Did anyone choose his genetic make-up? No. Did anyone choose to be born in Africa where he hasn't heard the word? No. Does that mean we shouldn't be punished for our sins? No.

So it is you who doesn't understand the bible any more than you udnerstand the soverignty of God. We are guilty, whether or not we can help it. And that's is what God is showing us. He makes the choices about who gets saved and who doesn't because only God knows the eharts of men and what they deserve. If humans made that choice, then you better believe they would want the guilty as well as the innocent (if there are any) to be saved because man's decisions always place him on the high end of the stick in his own eyes. So man isn't honest or objective enough to judge his own fate. ;-)

In fact, I can almost hear you saying: "That's not fair. God should decide who's saved based on man's wonderful intelligence, and pure heart to choose God. Salvation should be bas on man's own desire and effort, not on God's mercy and soverign election." God says, not so; "Who are you to decide who gets saved and who doesn't?" We are nothing in God's eyes. So it's only by His mercy and election that any on of us can go to heaven, not because any of us deserves it as Romans 9:16 tells us. ;-) If you don't like what God says in Romans 9, then talk to God abut it, not me, before you start changing his words around to suit your own desires.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi on Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:53 am
Again, you have shown that you do not believe the bible. Look at Romans 9:18, Then look at wht people ask Paul in the next verse; :Then why does God still blame us?" to which paul replied; "Who are you O man to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to who formed it: "Why did you make me like this?" Does not the potter have the right to form out of the same lump of clay those for noble purposes and some for common use?"

Apparently, you don't think so. We werre all born in sin. Could we help it? No. Did anyone choose to be born? No. Did anyone choose his parents? No. Did anyone choose his genetic make-up? No. Did anyone choose to be born in Africa where he hasn't heard the word? No. Does that mean we shouldn't be punished for our sins? No.

So it is you who doesn't understand the bible any more than you udnerstand the soverignty of God. We are guilty, whether or not we can help it. And that's is what God is showing us. He makes the choices about who gets saved and who doesn't because only God knows the eharts of men and what they deserve. If humans made that choice, then you better believe they would want the guilty as well as the innocent (if there are any) to be saved because man's decisions always place him on the high end of the stick in his own eyes. So man isn't honest or objective enough to judge his own fate.

I agree. You have correctly interpreted basically what that part of the passage in Romans 9 means. We do not get to choose what ‘honors’ or ‘dishonor’ we are born to. We were all born in sin. Could we help it? No. Did anyone choose to be born? No. Did anyone choose his parents? No. Did anyone choose his genetic make-up? No. Did anyone choose to be born in Africa where he hasn't heard the word? No. Does that mean we shouldn't be punished for our sins? No. God gives us our lot in life and we must accept what that is. You can’t say to God; “It isn‘t fair that I‘m not rich or beautiful or smart!†You are not condemned because of those things over which you have no control.

But does that mean that God sovereignly chooses a few to save from all the world of sinners? NO.

Go back over your list. Does any of these conditions prevent us from choosing to follow the word of God that he has written in every one of our hearts? No.

(Hebrews 10:15-16 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, said the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; )

No matter where we were born, or to what parents, or in what social status or with what genetic deformities or weaknesses, we are never tempted to sin beyond what we are able to withstand. You have God’s word on it in 1 Corinthians 10:13:
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

If you have been given little in way of knowledge, brains or social or economic advantages that make the full gospel accessible to you, little will be required of you. (Luke 12:47-48
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. )

God gives more grace to those in worse situations and harder temptations. (James 4:5-7 But he gives more grace. Wherefore he says, God resists the proud, but gives grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. )

quote by Heidi In fact, I can almost hear you saying: "That's not fair. God should decide who's saved based on man's wonderful intelligence, and pure heart to choose God. Salvation should be bas on man's own desire and effort, not on God's mercy and soverign election." God says, not so; "Who are you to decide who gets saved and who doesn't?" We are nothing in God's eyes. So it's only by His mercy and election that any on of us can go to heaven, not because any of us deserves it as Romans 9:16 tells us. If you don't like what God says in Romans 9, then talk to God abut it, not me, before you start changing his words around to suit your own desires.

You’re hearing things, Heidi. I didn’t say that and God didn’t say what you thought you heard him say either. It was close but you missed the essence of it entirely, almost the same way the Pharisees missed the real meaning behind the law being ‘love one another’ and not ‘kill the heretics.’

I would have said something closer to, "That's not fair. God said that he decided who's saved based on man's pure heart to choose God and walk in his ways.â€Â

Your misquote of God is a much more serious offence. You walked into the middle of a conversation between Paul and the Romans and made erroneous assumptions. God said, “Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?†But he wasn’t talking about God’s sovereign right to judge who was worthy of hell or heaven, but of God’s right to give each person the position in life that he deemed best for them. Position in honor or dishonor is not heaven or hell. It’s king or slave, man or woman, rich or poor, Jew or Gentile.

Now of course, you’ll want to jump ahead to the reference to ‘vessels of wrath’ and ‘vessels of mercy’ in verse 22. This is easily understood in the proper context if you remember that the Israelites as a nation were ‘vessels of mercy prepared afore unto glory’ when they obeyed God, and followed his chosen man but became ‘vessels of wrath’ when they disobeyed and rejected the prophet or leader God had chosen for them to follow and began to follow other gods instead. It would also do you good to remember that Paul is writing to Roman Christians who lived in a place that fed the faithful to lions and wild beasts. Wouldn’t you be saying, ‘Why have you made me thus?’ to God if you were in those conditions? Wouldn’t you wonder why God didn’t make the Christians to be the head and not the tail in Rome? Paul is reminding them of the glory that shall be revealed in us, not now but when Christ returns or in heaven when we receive our eternal reward.

Try to remember that when you read Paul’s letters, you are reading someone else’s mail. There is good, solid, true information that you can use but you must keep it in the context it was written, not make it say something to support some error that should never have been started.

Sorry for the length of this post but it is faster and easier to make knots and tangles than it is to untie them.

 

[Heidi]

By claiming that Paul's letter's are "someone else's mail" then you are claiming that nothing he says applies to us, and therefore a waste of time to read. Paul is talking to all saints, not just those to whom he has personally witnessed.

So since you don't apply what Paul says to yourself, then your beliefs don't come from the gospel, but from your made-up teachings and therefore are a waste of time either listening to or responding to since you're not God. :roll:

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi:
By claiming that Paul's letter's are "someone else's mail" then you are claiming that nothing he says applies to us, and therefore a waste of time to read. Paul is talking to all saints, not just those to whom he has personally witnessed.

Obviously, you just read one sentence of my post. Is that your reading capacity? One sentence, one verse? Your posts sound like you probably have all the verses you have ever read stuck on your refrigerator door. Read the next sentence, if you have time:

Unred wrote: Try to remember that when you read Paul’s letters, you are reading someone else’s mail. There is good, solid, true information that you can use but you must keep it in the context it was written, not make it say something to support some error that should never have been started.

quote by Heidi:
So since you don't apply what Paul says to yourself, then your beliefs don't come from the gospel, but from your made-up teachings and therefore are a waste of time either listening to or responding to since you're not God.

Sorry, but you don’t get off that easy. I do apply what Paul taught to myself when it is applicable. What have I said that is made up? I think you just can't deal with the truth of the full gospel, and prefer your watered down, lukewarm version. It's pretty pathetic.

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:

I'm sure this is the approved answer here. I would like some clarification. What do you mean by “walked in the flesh� Do you not see that the major point that Jesus had against them was they were doing evil, hateful deeds and pretending to be righteous while they were doing them? They were lying, thieving, murdering scoundrels who twisted God’s words in order to take advantage of others and they needed to repent.

When you say they “walked in the flesh†it almost sounds like you believe their biggest crime was their pride and you have not mentioned their heinous crimes against the people. They found ways to kill the just and say it was God’s will. Is that not their major difference with Jesus and his true followers? The Pharisees killed in God‘s name, and Christians died in his name.

Hi unred typo,

Thanks for asking for clarification. All sin whether it be genocide to telling a white lie is walking in the flesh. I regard works of the flesh as 'evil' works that stem from a fallen nature. I have reason to believe in what the reformed faith calls 'total depravity' concerning the fallen nature which is 'in Adam'. I did not focus on the specifics which you have identified but the cause from whence they stem - an evil and unbelieving heart.

Another way of looking at it is this: that the Pharisees were not walking in the Spirit. Obviously they were incapable because they did not believe in Jesus. Proof of this is simple: By their fruits you will know them. Who walks in the Spirit and commits murder, doing evil, hateful deeds, lying etc? No one who walks in the Spirit.

Thus between the Spirit and the flesh all mankinds 'works' are accounted for. There are not other categories, no third or fourth alternatives.

The Pharisees killed in God‘s name, and Christians died in his name.

Yes they were the instruments behind delivering Jesus to the Romans to be executed. I seem to recall that Jesus also attributed the killing of the prophets to their lot - which is interesting.

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger on Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:09 am
Hi unred typo,

Thanks for asking for clarification. All sin whether it be genocide to telling a white lie is walking in the flesh. I regard works of the flesh as 'evil' works that stem from a fallen nature. I have reason to believe in what the reformed faith calls 'total depravity' concerning the fallen nature which is 'in Adam'. I did not focus on the specifics which you have identified but the cause from whence they stem - an evil and unbelieving heart.

Another way of looking at it is this: that the Pharisees were not walking in the Spirit. Obviously they were incapable because they did not believe in Jesus. Proof of this is simple: By their fruits you will know them. Who walks in the Spirit and commits murder, doing evil, hateful deeds, lying etc? No one who walks in the Spirit.

Thus between the Spirit and the flesh all mankinds 'works' are accounted for. There are not other categories, no third or fourth alternatives.

I see. I agree somewhat. Their sin does come from their evil heart of unbelief. The problem I find is that by saying that they were incapable of walking in the spirit, you are making judgment against them that may or may not be true. According to the Bible, we are capable, if we so choose, to repent. Jesus even warns them to clean up their hearts:

Matthew 23:26 You blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

The cases where we are not able are when we have gone beyond the point of no return, where God has decided that we have had enough space to repent and may cause our death or hardens our heart. If he chooses to harden us, he may use us for some appointed evil deed to accomplish his purposes, (i.e. as a tool to punish another sinner in order to bring the other person to repentance or to bring about another‘s death even, as Judas or the Pharisees did to Jesus. ) These are the extreme cases that the Calvinist uses to make his warped views seem correct. Generally, if you are still breathing, you have the choice to repent. The more accustomed you are to doing evil, the harder it becomes. You can’t repent of your sin and still cling to it.

Even the Pharisees could have repented if they had been humbled enough when they were punished in the destruction of their temple in Jerusalem. Saul repented even before that on the Damascus road.

quote by stranger

[quote:5566b]Unred said: The Pharisees killed in God‘s name, and Christians died in his name.

Yes they were the instruments behind delivering Jesus to the Romans to be executed. I seem to recall that Jesus also attributed the killing of the prophets to their lot - which is interesting. [/quote:5566b]

Yes, he said that hypocritical Pharisees and scribes were responsible from way back for these types of dirty deeds and that they were about to reap what had been sown by their kind.

Matthew 23:29-35
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31Wherefore you be witnesses unto yourselves, that you are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill you up then the measure of your fathers.
33You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall you scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom you slew between the temple and the altar.

I would like to clarify one thing more. Any sin breaks the law and must be repented of but not all sins are equal in God’s eyes. The sin of telling your Aunt Zelda that her dry cake was delicious is not the same degree of sin that stealing money from her purse would be, and that is not as bad as pushing her in front of a speeding truck. These sins each would make you qualified as a sinner but there is a sin unto death. God makes a distinction between the severity of various sins by his reaction to them. There is a danger in making all sin to be of the same equivalent weight.

 

[Vic C.]

By claiming that Paul's letter's are "someone else's mail" then you are claiming that nothing he says applies to us, and therefore a waste of time to read. Paul is talking to all saints, not just those to whom he has personally witnessed.

So since you don't apply what Paul says to yourself, then your beliefs don't come from the gospel, but from your made-up teachings and therefore are a waste of time either listening to or responding to since you're not God. :roll:

This is considered an ad hominem. If this continues any longer, we will either have to ask you to kindly bow out of the discussion or we will lock it, which isn't fair to the others who are behaving themselves. Either way, it's your choice... and yes, contrary to what you believe, you do have a choice whether to behave yourself or not.

 

[Drew]

I will add my voice to those who see the "potter's tale" in Romans 9 as an account of the election of national Israel, not individuals. I will state (without defending it in this post) the view that Paul is really talking about God's plan to use Israel to deal with the problem of sin - the intent of the covenant all along. How can God use Israel to do this? By making her a teacher of the law to the rest of the world? Hardly - Israel, like all of us, are in Adam. There is only one way to deal with sin - condemn it and punish it. So, strange as it may seem, I think that God always intended to pile the sin of the world onto Israel and then condemn it. As such, it is national Israel, not human individuals, who is a vessel "prepared for destruction".

God, in his fathomless love, as we all know, did not require national Israel to bear this awful burden of election. Instead Jesus "became the true Israel" and the sin of the entire world was borne by Him . But national Isreal indeed "acted out the Christ pattern" - she was indeed a vessel prepared for destruction. But the awful stroke fell on Jesus, not national Israel.

I know I keep repreating myself about this, but I need to acknowledge that this idea is not my own but originates from the teaching of NT Wright.

And I do realize that this view may seem offensive to some Jews. But from my perspective as a Christian (actually with Jewish blood on my father's side), the entire world owes an incalculable debt to the Jews (and I believe that Paul makes this very case) - they are vital agents in the plan of redemption which has effectively reconciled us to God and given us new life.