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You have to be born.....AGAIN?

H

Heneni

Guest
Hi there, im new here. I have been looking around the forum and my eyes fell on the predestination thread. This is a spin of from that thread.

I will attempt to explain my undertanding of predestination (only roughly) and what it means to be born again.

I think that to understand predestination, we have to understand election.

Whoever god choses he gives birth to.

God chose a nation for himself, and then birthed that nation. He seperated a nation out from the other nations, by birthing them first.

In the same way god chose us in christ, and to seperate us from others he birthed us in christ jesus. Gave us new birth.

New birth means there was an old birth, and another father. When the father of mankind, adam, was created, we were all created IN adam, yet only born later. God created all of mankind when he created adam, we only proceeded out from adam, in the form of birth later. In the same way, if there was going to be a new father, (last adam) we had to be recreated IN him, which happened when we were placed IN christ on the cross in order to be born later as a spiritually alive man.

So IN the first adam, we all died, because we were all in the first adam that died spiritually and therefore all born from his seed would also be spiritually born dead. Then we were adopted and placed IN christ, (our new father) so that we too may be born onto this earth, but spiritually alive. Jesus the bible calls the first born from the dead, and we are born in turn onto this earth. That is what born again means.

Jesus said to his disciples, if you have seen me you have seen the father. Their new father. Jesus is also referred to as the everlasting father in revelation for the same reason. That is why the bible says we are adopted. Adopted from adam.

The bible says that the natural man comes first and then the spiritual. The natural man was created in adam, the spiritual man was created in Jesus. The natural man had to be born onto the earth, and the spiritual man too must do the same.

Do not marvel jesus said...you have to be born AGAIN.

If there are any questions i'd be happy to try and answer as best i can. :)
 
Heneni said:
follower of Christ said:
Is that you, benoni ? ;)
Click to expand...

:lol no im not benoni, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Whats benoni like?
Click to expand...
Sorry. :lol
The username looked similar so I thought it was the other guy Benoni here on the forum :lol
 
Tina said:
Heneni said:
I think that to understand predestination, we have to understand election.
Click to expand...

So is predestination the same as election ?


:confused
Click to expand...

Yes I think it is especially in the context of salvation. God predestines those he elects. And in the case of salvation he births whom he elects.

There are other predestinations and elections that does not relate to being born again, like for example pharoah whom god chose and predestined to show forth gods wrath.

Predestination brings with it the notion that before the destination is arrived at , it was pre-arranged.

Hence, all that have been APPOINTED for salvation will be saved. It was pre-arranged. An appointment is something for which you have to show up. And so, nobody that the father has given the son, shall be lost, because they will meet their appointement to be saved. My sheep know my voice.

Since i dont believe that we are born again, when we say the sinners prayer for reasons i have explained in my OP, i dont believe in the possiblity to be 'unborn'. The spiritual regeneration of the spirit happened on the cross, the natural birth happens later. And as all mankind that was created in adam, later was born, so all those who were placed IN christ on the cross, received new birth then, but need to, in turn be born onto this earth.

Heneni
 
^
Do you think that if one is born-again in a family, the whole family will be predestined/elected for salvation ? ... Is there biblical support for this ?


.
 
Tina said:
^
Do you think that if one is born-again in a family, the whole family will be predestined/elected for salvation ? ... Is there biblical support for this ?


.
Click to expand...

No. There is no biblical support for this notion.
 
Heneni - Can you pse clarify your position on the two births. Are you saying that spiritual birth comes before or after natural birth.

You say in one place, "The spiritual regeneration of the spirit happened on the cross, the natural birth happens later" . . . and in another, "The bible says that the natural man comes first and then the spiritual."

Do you not agree that the natural man is the man born of the flesh and the spiritual man is the man born of the spirit?

Thanks
 
mutzrein said:
Heneni - Can you pse clarify your position on the two births. Are you saying that spiritual birth comes before or after natural birth.

You say in one place, "The spiritual regeneration of the spirit happened on the cross, the natural birth happens later" . . . and in another, "The bible says that the natural man comes first and then the spiritual."

Do you not agree that the natural man is the man born of the flesh and the spiritual man is the man born of the spirit?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Hi there. We have a body and we have a spirit and so we are two in one really, that is of course true. But the bible also shows a distinction between the natural man and the spiritual man as having coming one AFTER the other.

All natural man who were born, came from Adam, each in his own turn. (they too had/has a body and a spirit)

The spiritual man is born, coming from christ, with the seed of god remaining in him, each in his own turn. (they too have a body and a spirit)


The difference is that the natural man's spirit was born spiritually dead in a living body. The spiritual man is born with a spirit spiritually alive in a living body.

There is the notion that when a man says the sinners prayer his spirit is somehow reborn. It isnt reborn then, it was rebirthed on the cross, and then all those that were rebirthed on the cross, have to be physically born onto this earth, each in his own turn. They are children of the spirit, born by the will and design of god, not born by the will and design of man into a physical body. The children of god are not on this planet because our parents wanted us here. We are born because god wanted us here, and our parents were the vehicle to get us here. It is through the womb of a women that the wheat and the tares are sown into the field, which is the world.

There is the notion that when somebody says the sinners prayer, that god comes into the spirit and changes it in some way to become reborn. There is no scriptural grounds for the sinners prayer. What does happen at the time when we ‘receive’ Christ is that we hear the voice of the shepherd and respond. That is when we as sheep who have gone astray, turn to the shepherd, but that is not when we become sheep.

Just as the sons of man were created in totality in adam when he was made, so the sons of God was created in totality in Jesus. But all have to be born, each in his own turn. That is why the bible says, that natural man comes before the spiritual man. For the natural man to exist he must have been created in adam. For the spiritual man to exist, he must have been recreated in Christ. Spiritual rebirth requires a new father. And we were adopted from adam, and placed in Christ on the cross, who gave us new birth. But we are only later born onto this planet.

We are children born from above, our spirits were translated out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light when Jesus gave us new birth. We were translated to paradise, where Jesus said he would find the thief. It is from there, from above, that our spirits come when we are born on this earth physically.

It is from the Jerusalem above that we are born. The Jerusalem above was desolate with no children of her own until Jesus changed that. Galatians 4:26.
 
Predestination is not about salvation....but about being conformed to Christ. Read Rom 8:29

There are those whom God has predestined to rule and reign with Him. This is election. Are all citizens elected to be the president. Or does God not have the choice of who will rule at His side? Not everyone who fails to be elected is put to death...not even in our present times. :)
 
Adullam said:
Predestination is not about salvation....but about being conformed to Christ. Read Rom 8:29
Click to expand...

Indeed, but to be conformed into the image of christ, you had to be chosen to do so and given new birth. Can somebody conform into the image of christ, unless he is in christ? Can anybody be in christ who had not be predestined to be there?
 
Heneni said:
mutzrein said:
Heneni - Can you pse clarify your position on the two births. Are you saying that spiritual birth comes before or after natural birth.

You say in one place, "The spiritual regeneration of the spirit happened on the cross, the natural birth happens later" . . . and in another, "The bible says that the natural man comes first and then the spiritual."

Do you not agree that the natural man is the man born of the flesh and the spiritual man is the man born of the spirit?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Hi there. We have a body and we have a spirit and so we are two in one really, that is of course true. But the bible also shows a distinction between the natural man and the spiritual man as having coming one AFTER the other.

All natural man who were born, came from Adam, each in his own turn. (they too had/has a body and a spirit)

The spiritual man is born, coming from christ, with the seed of god remaining in him, each in his own turn. (they too have a body and a spirit)


The difference is that the natural man's spirit was born spiritually dead in a living body. The spiritual man is born with a spirit spiritually alive in a living body.

There is the notion that when a man says the sinners prayer his spirit is somehow reborn. It isnt reborn then, it was rebirthed on the cross, and then all those that were rebirthed on the cross, have to be physically born onto this earth, each in his own turn. They are children of the spirit, born by the will and design of god, not born by the will and design of man into a physical body. The children of god are not on this planet because our parents wanted us here. We are born because god wanted us here, and our parents were the vehicle to get us here. It is through the womb of a women that the wheat and the tares are sown into the field, which is the world.

There is the notion that when somebody says the sinners prayer, that god comes into the spirit and changes it in some way to become reborn. There is no scriptural grounds for the sinners prayer. What does happen at the time when we ‘receive’ Christ is that we hear the voice of the shepherd and respond. That is when we as sheep who have gone astray, turn to the shepherd, but that is not when we become sheep.

Just as the sons of man were created in totality in adam when he was made, so the sons of God was created in totality in Jesus. But all have to be born, each in his own turn. That is why the bible says, that natural man comes before the spiritual man. For the natural man to exist he must have been created in adam. For the spiritual man to exist, he must have been recreated in Christ. Spiritual rebirth requires a new father. And we were adopted from adam, and placed in Christ on the cross, who gave us new birth. But we are only later born onto this planet.

We are children born from above, our spirits were translated out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light when Jesus gave us new birth. We were translated to paradise, where Jesus said he would find the thief. It is from there, from above, that our spirits come when we are born on this earth physically.

It is from the Jerusalem above that we are born. The Jerusalem above was desolate with no children of her own until Jesus changed that. Galatians 4:26.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Is this derived from some sort of personal 'revelation' or do you belong to a group that embraces this belief?
 
Tina said:
^
Do you think that if one is born-again in a family, the whole family will be predestined/elected for salvation ? ... Is there biblical support for this ?


.
Click to expand...

I really am not sure about that....but my best guess would be:

I feel that nothing unclean can be born from a holy women, so that god may honour her womb, the fruit of which he has blessed.

My understanding is that any child of god can be born onto this planet from a holy or unholy mother. But god will not let an unclean child be born from an already holy mother.

1 Cor 7:14 :chin
 
[/quote]

Thanks for that. Is this derived from some sort of personal 'revelation' or do you belong to a group that embraces this belief?[/quote]

By the sound of 'some sort' i take it you dont agree. ;) Im more than willing to discuss the parts you are unsure about.

I belong to the group called 'saved by grace'. Works for me. :wave
 
Heneni said:
mutzrein said:
Thanks for that. Is this derived from some sort of personal 'revelation' or do you belong to a group that embraces this belief?
Click to expand...

By the sound of 'some sort' i take it you dont agree. ;) Im more than willing to discuss the parts you are unsure about.

I belong to the group called 'saved by grace'. Works for me. :wave
Click to expand...

LOL - yeah I am also part of the 'saved by grace' people. I also do not agree that man chooses to be born again.

However, that might be the extent of our agreement.

I believe that all of mankind (apart from the man Christ Jesus) at the point of natural birth has been born devoid of a spirit. Those who are the elect (whose names are written in the book of life) will be given eternal life (their spirit will be born) at some point during their physical life. These will have passed from death to life. Those who do not receive this birth of spirit will remain dead and perish as scripture says.
 
This is an interesting conversation. I'm eagerly watching the discussion in here. Most of what Heneni has said so far I agree with. I'm interested to see the continued discourse on this topic. The doctrine of election has never been my strong point in doctrine.
 
Heneni said:
Any scripture to prove than man is born without a spirit?
Click to expand...

I hear people talk about a regenerated spirit as though a spirit can be dead or dormant. The spirit IS life. Where there is no life, there is no spirit.

Of course there is no specific scripture that states that man is born without a spirit. It just makes no sense to state it when we know that every man is born devoid of eternal life and man is given eternal life when he is born of the Spirit. And if all did have a spirit, what would Jesus have meant when he said, “The Spirit gives birth to spirit.â€Â

To me there is the general weight of scripture which in many places speaks of the difference between those who have been born of the spirit and those who are not.

Throughout Jesus ministry he makes reference to the man of the flesh and the man of the Spirit, and defines them as being two distinctive birthrights.

In Genesis we read of two foundations for the birth of man but the concept of being born again was not revealed until Jesus came. Thus fulfilling the words of the psalmist when speaking of Jesus ministry, “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.â€Â

Now look at the creation of man as recorded in Genesis when God made the heavens and the earth. Regarding the spiritual: God said, “Let us make man in our image, . . . . . . . . So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.†Regarding the natural: The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Paul writes comprehensively on this issue when addressing the Corinthians and states, “The first man Adam became a living being and the last Adam a life giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from Heaven.â€Â

It is my contention that not all a made in God’s image but those who are born of His spirit.

The man of the flesh is dead in trespasses and sin. All are born in this state. The man of the Spirit has passed from death to life because he has received the Spirit of life. Scripture in Colossians, Ephesians attest to being made alive with Christ even when we were dead. Romans says if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

John 3 - Those who believe in Christ inherit eternal life and those who don’t perish. And later - whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

In Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus says flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Now if all have a spirit, I would say, show me the scripture that says as much – perhaps even one that eludes to a time in our growth or development that we receive it. You would think that such a fundamental attribute would be spoken of somewhere, don’t you think? The truth is, there is none but I can see plenty of evidence in scripture for two births. Firstly – birth of the flesh . . . and secondly – birth of the spirit.
 
I remember one person asking me “How do you know what to believe?†The answer was and is still very simple, you have to look at what they teach. If what they are teaching is not what the Bible says then it is not from God. In Acts 17:10-12, Paul and Silas preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Bereans. How did they respond to them? First they went back to the scriptures and made sure that what is being taught is the truth. Then and only then did they accept it and that is exactly what we should do when trying to discern whether or not something is the truth, search the scriptures and find out if what is being taught is backed up by the Bible.

The next thing that needs to be addressed is the subject of interpretation. You must interpret scripture in light of the whole Bible, not just certain groups of scriptures by themselves. It is very easy to prove just about anything you want if you interpret the scriptures narrowly enough. Psalms 53:10 says “…there is no God.†If you only use this scripture, an Atheist could prove to himself that God does not exist and this is by using the scriptures themselves. But if you look at its full context it says “The fool in his heart says there is no God†and this is exactly what a lot of those who identify themselves as Christians are doing. Taking only a handful of scriptures and building their faith around them regardless of the fact that there are other scriptures that directly contradict their interpretation.

As it says in Malachi 3:6 “I am the Lord and I do not change.†If God never changes, neither does the meaning of what he says. So if your interpretation of scripture is backed up by one scripture and contradicted by another, then your interpretation is incorrect and must be re-evaluated. Otherwise, God is a liar and therefore not God.

Predestination is not Scriptural. God gave us free will and we have to choose to follow Christ. To say that God is responsible for all of our decisions is nothing more than a way to remove personal accountability from ourselves. As it says in Deuteronomy 30 verse 19, “I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.†If we are predestined to Heaven or Hell, then God would have said, “I will make you choose Life or Death†and not give us a choice.

According to Ezekiel 18:20, “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.†The only way that this verse could be true in regards to Predestination is that God makes us some of us sin. Considering that a sin is a violation of God’s will that means that God’s will for some of us is that we violate God’s will. Exactly how is that even possible? If we do what God wants us to do then we have not sinned therefore not violated God’s will.

If we take the false doctrine of Predestination to its logical conclusion then no one has ever sinned and no one even needs the sacrifice of Christ. That means Christ wasted his time dying for sins that none of us ever committed. It just doesn’t make sense.

Now let’s take a look at the topic of this thread. If you look at John 3, Nicodemus came to Christ which is where Christ himself gives us the requirements for any of us to be saved. In verse 5 Jesus Christ himself says “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God†and then in Mark 16:16 ‘He who believes AND is baptized will be saved, he who does not believe is condemned†The water in this verse refers to Baptism for the remission of sins and the Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit which is received by the believer at Baptism.
 
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