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You Won't Believe This.

Lewis

Lewis

Member
I got this from CNN

Ancient text offers revelations about Judas
Manuscript indicates disciple betrayed Jesus -- at his request

Thursday, April 6, 2006; Posted: 10:52 a.m. EDT (14:52 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- National Geographic unveiled an ancient manuscript Thursday that may shed new light on the relationship between Jesus and Judas, the disciple who betrayed him.

The papyrus manuscript was written probably around 300 A.D. in Coptic script, a copy of an earlier Greek manuscript.

It was discovered in the desert in Egypt in the 1970s and has now been authenticated by carbon dating and studied and translated by biblical scholars, National Geographic announced.

Unlike the four gospels in the Bible, this text indicates that Judas betrayed Jesus at Jesus' request.

The text begins "the secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot."

The key passage comes when Jesus tells Judas "you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothed me."

This indicates that Judas would help liberate the spiritual self by helping Jesus get rid of his physical flesh, the scholars said.

The manuscript was first mentioned in a treatise around 180 A.D. by a bishop, Irenaeus of Lyon, in what is now France. The bishop denounced the manuscript as differing from mainstream Christianity and said it produced a fictitious story.

There were several gospels in circulation at the time in addition to the four in the Bible. When those gospels were denounced, it was thought that believers hid them away.

The gospel of Judas was kept by a group called the Gnostics, who believed that the way to salvation was through secret knowledge given by Jesus to his inner circle.

National Geographic said the author of the gospel of Judas believed that Judas Iscariot alone understood the true significance of Jesus' teachings.
 
:smt011 :painting: :smt082

That's just too funny. Do they really think they can shake our faith with Gospel not referenced until a hundred years after the Four were written a proliferated?

Give me a brake, this is pure gold. "Hey Judas, come commit a sin, the act of betrayel, to save the entire universe. Because you you've stolen from the treasury and handed me over to my enemies for some shiney metal, I'll let you come with me."

This sounds like a great fiction novel.
 
Some of the things they come up with... HONESTLY!!! :lol: :lol:
 
Notice how peopel can pick and choose which parts of christianity they want to believe. Other gospels get thrown out because people disagree with them or dont like them


And then people have the nerve to say that
"i believe in the bible, because it is the word of god"

While they denounce other scripts that would be in the bible, if Man didnt disagree with them..
 
ArtGuy said:
If this was true, would it really change much?
Click to expand...

It would change the circumstances of Judas's betrayal of Jesus, Jesus's arrest and His death. Jesus would have scripted the entire thing, which would totally debunk all of His predictions of His death. It would make Him sinful, and we would therefore have to question His deity even. Yes, it would change a lot. The entire basis of Christian faith would be shaken.
 
peace4all said:
Notice how peopel can pick and choose which parts of christianity they want to believe. Other gospels get thrown out because people disagree with them or dont like them


And then people have the nerve to say that
"i believe in the bible, because it is the word of god"

While they denounce other scripts that would be in the bible, if Man didnt disagree with them..
Click to expand...
To be perfectly frank your post shows your ignorance about the canonization of scripture.
 
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If it was found in 1970, then why wait so long to unveil it?

.


These days it is difficult to believe anything anyone has to "reveal", or "unveil".

These days, with all the expertise in creating official looking artifacts, etc., I am leary of what the media presents as fact. If master artists can duplicate (forge) a Van Gogh painting, a Mona Lisa, or some other masterpiece, what makes anyone think an ancient manuscript would not be forged?

It is said that Archives in the Vatican have been estimated to contain 30 miles of shelving full of documents, books, manuscripts, etc below it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Vatican_Archives

Wouldn't it be interesting to see what they could pull out of that "rabbits hat" . :roll:


rockyandbullwinkle5mo.jpg

"Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!!"



mgbunny.gif
 
The National Geographic Channel (NGC) premieres the first documentary look at the Gospel of Judas.

The National Geographic Channel airs the show on Sunday, April 9, 2006 at 8 p.m. ET/7 p.m. PT (encore at 10 p.m. ET).
 
Nocturnal_Principal_X said:
To be perfectly frank your post shows your ignorance about the canonization of scripture.
Click to expand...

What he said.
 
I have read many Gnostic Gospels, one thing they have in common is that take the Gospels, and add stuff to it to it make different than what Jesus said in our Gospels. The Gnostics were a known cult of the time, and what they wrote should be read with caution.
 
canonization of scripture??

I have only ever heard opf that for people. Individuals, and only in the Roman Catholic Church.

So I guess I don't know about it then.
My apologies.
It still stands that one paper that says somethign, shouldnt just be thrown out because it is disagreed with.
 
But see, you don't understand, peace4all.

The gosels weren't canonized because people agreed with them or not, they were canonized because they agreed with ancient witnesses as well as old testament scripture. Remember that the New Testament is the fulfilment of the Old.

In fact, all of the books were canonized because they were the best primary sources that all the churches were using. That's why those scriptures were canonized, because they don't contradict each other, and they reflect the Jesus that was received by everyone who was truly believer.

For instance, the Catholic Church was well known for using some "Gospels" that weren't canonized. Have you heard of the Gospel of Thomas? If you have, you,ve probably heard similar debate over it. Why? Because the secular world is desperately trying to wdge religion into historical documents and say we believe it. The Jesus portrayed in the Gospel os Thomas is dumb and sexist. It has nothing to do with anything remotely close to the Gospels.

Also, that article said spoke about a manuscript that existed in 300 A.D. Well, that doesn't help their argument at all. First, the ycan't produce the manuscript. There are many manuscripts of the Gospels dating before 150 A.D. Second, supposing the manuscript was copied in 300 A.D., their is no proof that it was written before that. But, you see, even the most liberal scholars have to date the four Gospels within less than thirty years after Jesus' death and resurrection. Now historically, that's a news flash.

Well, I could go on the subject, but I hope now you understand a little more. See, the media always does this because the secular scholars know that secular folks would rather believe them than the truth. They know that most don't know it's a bluff and so they get away with it time and time again.

I hope I helped you.
 
cly said:
It would change the circumstances of Judas's betrayal of Jesus, Jesus's arrest and His death. Jesus would have scripted the entire thing, which would totally debunk all of His predictions of His death.
Click to expand...

Not really. All of his predictions would have come true, still, it would just mean that he had a hand in it.

It would make Him sinful, and we would therefore have to question His deity even. Yes, it would change a lot. The entire basis of Christian faith would be shaken.
Click to expand...

How would it make Jesus sinful? Everything he had ever said would happen would've happened. The entire basis of the Christian faith is that Jesus, son of God, was born a man and died for our sins. Whether or not he had a conversation with Judas to usher things along is irrelevant to this central fact. He'd still be the savior. I have to think that if you're entire faith would be shaken by this one revelation, your faith must not be very strong to begin with.

I'm not saying that I buy this news story or not, I just don't get what the big deal would be if it were true. I notice that often, Christians seem to read a lot into bits of trivia. Things like, "OMG Jesus spent a month working as a goat herder before he became a carpenter! This changes everything!"
 
GundmanZero said:
.... See, the media always does this because the secular scholars know that secular folks would rather believe them than the truth. They know that most don't know it's a bluff and so they get away with it time and time again....
Click to expand...

Yep, Sad but true. :sad


.
 
manuscripts

GundamZero said:
Also, that article said spoke about a manuscript that existed in 300 A.D. Well, that doesn't help their argument at all. First, the ycan't produce the manuscript. There are many manuscripts of the Gospels dating before 150 A.D. Second, supposing the manuscript was copied in 300 A.D., their is no proof that it was written before that. But, you see, even the most liberal scholars have to date the four Gospels within less than thirty years after Jesus' death and resurrection. Now historically, that's a news flash.
There is very little hard evidence in existance of anything in Christian writings before 400 AD.The importance of this find being in existance at 300AD is that it is not likely a forgery. There are several books not in the bible which start of "The gospel according to _____" which are not in the present bible. These were discarded by ordinary men (church) who were in control of not only the church but the politics of the day of which the two were the same.

Well, I could go on the subject, but I hope now you understand a little more. See, the media always does this because the secular scholars know that secular folks would rather believe them than the truth. They know that most don't know it's a bluff and so they get away with it time and time again.
The media is not doing anything other than reporting what is there. Experts have and are studying the issue at hand and you are free to accept or reject what is there. The Book of Judas is not the only book out there that contradicts the bible and the story or stories you accept as true. The bible as we have it was put together and voted on in 397 Ad by ordinary men. You can't discount the political motives of the day for the things that were done.
http://www.catholicevangelism.org/bible-dates1.shtml
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/index.htm



I hope I helped you.
Click to expand...
 
Agarash said:
Here is a very good explanation on why the credibility for thsi document is so very low...

http://www.livescience.com/history/0603 ... judas.html
Click to expand...

Thanks Agarash, This article deserves to be posted in full.

Those gnostic writings, I wouldn't trust them within the range of a ten foot pole! :-?

============================

Expert Doubts Gospel Of Judas
By Richard N. Ostling
Associated Press
posted: 03 March 2006
04:20 pm ET


NEW YORK (AP) -- An expert on ancient Egyptian texts is predicting that the “Gospel of Judas'' -- a manuscript from early Christian times that's nearing release amid widespread interest from scholars -- will be a dud in terms of learning anything new about Judas.

James M. Robinson, America's leading expert on such ancient religious texts from Egypt, predicts in a new book that the text won't offer any insights into the disciple who betrayed Jesus. His reason: While it's old, it's not old enough.

“Does it go back to Judas? No,'' Robinson told The Associated Press on Thursday.

The text, in Egypt's Coptic language, dates from the third or fourth century and is a copy of an earlier document. The National Geographic Society, along with other groups, has been studying the “Judas'' text.

The society said Thursday it will release its report on the document “within the next few weeks'' but didn't specify whether that would come via a book, magazine article or telecast.

Robinson has not seen the text that National Geographic is working on, but assumes it is the same work assailed by Bishop Irenaeus of Lyons around A.D. 180.

Irenaeus said the writings came from a “Cainite'' Gnostic sect that jousted against orthodox Christianity. He also accused the Cainites of lauding the biblical murderer Cain, the Sodomites and Judas, whom they regarded as the keeper of secret mysteries.

National Geographic's collaborators on the translation and interpretation of the text include its current owner -- Mario Roberti's Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art in Basel, Switzerland -- and the Waitt Institute for Historical Discovery in La Jolla, California. Rodolphe Kasser, formerly of the University of Geneva, is the editor.

Robinson writes that the journey of the text to Switzerland was “replete with smugglers, black-market antiquities dealers, religious scholars, backstabbing partners and greedy entrepreneurs.'' In the process, Robinson fears, the fragile text may have been mishandled and parts of it lost forever.

Robinson is an emeritus professor at Claremont (California) Graduate University, chief editor of religious documents found in 1945 at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, and an international leader among scholars of Coptic manuscripts.

He says the text is valuable to scholars of the second century but dismissed the notion that it'll reveal unknown biblical secrets. He speculated the timing of the release is aimed at capitalizing on interest in the film version of “The Da Vinci Code'' -- a fictional tale that centers on a Christian conspiracy to cover up a marriage between Jesus and Mary Magdalene.

“There are a lot of second-, third- and fourth-century gospels attributed to various apostles,'' Robinson said. “We don't really assume they give us any first century information.''

A National Geographic response said “it's ironic'' for Robinson to raise such questions since for years “he tried unsuccessfully to acquire this codex himself, and is publishing his own book in April, despite having no direct access to the materials.''

National Geographic said it practiced “due diligence'' with scholars “to save the manuscript before it turns to dust and is lost forever'' and that everyone involved is committed to returning the materials to Egypt.

In “The Secrets of Judas,'' a HarperSanFrancisco book on sale April 1, Robinson will describe secretive maneuvers in the United States, Switzerland, Greece and elsewhere over two decades to sell the “Judas'' manuscript.

He writes that he was approached about purchasing a group of manuscripts in 1983 and arranged for colleague Stephen Emmel, now at the University of Muenster, Germany, to meet in Geneva with go-betweens for the owner.

Emmel got a glimpse of the text but didn't know it was the “Gospel of Judas'' till years later. He was told the original asking price was $10 million (euro8.39 million) but it could be obtained for $3 million (euro2.52 million), an impossibly high figure for the interested Americans.

From there, Robinson traces a twisted sales trail through years and continents to this year's impending release.

Emmel is now a member of the National Geographic team along with other former students of Robinson, who hopes his colleagues will be providing solid information about the text's history and location.


.
 
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