Bible Study SO YOU THINK YOU ARE SAVED.

[reba]

Admin .. lets not forget the topic ....

This thread is not about the LAWS it is about how we live our daily lives

 

[smaller]

I accept, fully, the conclusions of Gods Laws. These Laws prove, beyond any doubt, that "I" am a sinner. I accept this conclusion because it is the TRUTH from THE TRUTH.

Now that that has been concluded I can go about my Heavenly Fathers Business which is fully detailed in Romans 13:8-10.

 

[JLB]

Will note once more. Repenting or being sorry doesn't change the fact that we are sinners. Nor will responsibility or accountability change that fact either.

We might just have to come to the conclusion that we are sinners and that Jesus saves sinners.

We all have indeed sinned.

If we have indeed been born of God, then we are not sinners, but saints.

If a person who chooses to sin, and turn away from Christ, then they have gone back to being a sinner.

If a person has answered FROM the way of truth, then then have returned to being a sinner, and are in need of turning back to the way of truth, or their soul will suffer death and be lost.

James 5:19-21

 

[smaller]

We all have indeed sinned.

If we have indeed been born of God, then we are not sinners, but saints.

Sin is not capable of stopping The Love of God Expressed in Christ, period.

We are not made sinless by our beliefs. None of us. I am not interested in being made into a liar or a hypocrite by phony theology. Is the Law of God adverse to me? Yes. Because I am a sinner and the law has proven this to me beyond any doubt. I just came to an honest conclusion about it.

My bad? Or am I being truthful?

If a person who chooses to sin, and turn away from Christ, then they have gone back to being a sinner.

Whatever choices are made they will NOT make anyone sinless or a non-sinner. But thinking otherwise can quickly turn any person into a lying hypocrite in about 2 seconds. That's how powerful indwelling sin is if we're not honest.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think I should have said I don't agree with the OP. It's wrong, it's worded Wrong. The Ordinances have been abolished for the punishment sake. Thou shalt not commit adultery is worthy of However, Love is a law unto itself and does not commit adultery. I have no commandment but to love another. Now as a new believer I put no such burden as it's written whom much is given, much is required. Our soul was not born again, it needs transformed so there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.

"So you think you are saved" This is not the outward appearance of the acts of the flesh. You can't take laws to judge a person.

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
(Isa 29:13 KJV)

Churches are filled with those who look great, but don't even know God. Their hearts are not with God, neither do they consider His path or His way.

The doctrine that God is mysterious is a Satanic poison. If you don't know God, then your left with a list to follow. If I am told to be somewhere and just get there late or not at all then it's time to repent. If I handle something OK, but not the best with all the Wisdom and power of the Holy Spirit available then it's time to repent. I have learned now not to move until I get direction.

Heb_8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

You know God as a Father? Do you know God through the commandments and idea's of man?

Mike.

I agree with you. I think what the O.P. is saying is that if we're born again and love God we WILL obey His commandments. I think he's saying that there are consequences to NOT obeying them. He used the example of divorce. I like to use the example of smoking -whether or not one thinks it's a sin. It certainly isn't something God would want us to do. So if you don't smoke you have less of a chance of getting a lung disease, and if you do smoke, you have a great chance of getting a lung disease - which would make the evil one very happy.

So, yes, of course it's a heart thing and we can't see people's hearts. BUT GOD CAN.
We can judge a persons actions - not their soul. Only God could know a person's heart and soul.

Your post reminded me of Jeremiah 31:33
One of my favorite scriptures.

In the colored sentence (my doing) you say you put no burden on the new believer because the more you know the more is required. I agree with this. God can only judge us by the light we have. Then you say you have no commandment but to love another. The most difficult one! And that one will cover for all the others.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

We all have indeed sinned.

If we have indeed been born of God, then we are not sinners, but saints.

If a person who chooses to sin, and turn away from Christ, then they have gone back to being a sinner.

If a person has answered FROM the way of truth, then then have returned to being a sinner, and are in need of turning back to the way of truth, or their soul will suffer death and be lost.

James 5:19-21

JLB

Do you note any difference between:
Being a sinner
Committing a sin
??

Wondering

I'm sorry JLB. I'm editing. I think I know what you mean.
God doesn't see us as SINNERS. Being a sinner is a problem of our "nature".
After we're born again we can't really be considered sinners anymore because Jesus calls us to transform ourselves and to not be conformed to the world. Is this what you mean?
Romans 12:2

 

[GodsGrace]

Wow! Thank you all for your participation in OUR thread. I say ours because your input is going to help build this very important topic for Christians today. Especially me and you.

Lets look again at the Scripture that is the springboard for this thread.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Lets look at the Commandments of that Moses received from the our Heavenly Father, Jesus the Son of God and the blessed Holy Spirit. I mention all three because we will see a blending of these in Matthew Chapter 5 when Jesus once again gives us Commandments. Lets look at the famous 10 Commandments. I do not see anything to get all legalistic about. The Scribes and Pharisees of the Old Testament took these and made thousands of do and don't which legalism in the true sense of the word came about.

My main thrust of this thread is, these are the Commandments that we keep if we are truly born again because they are written in our hearts, we just need to adhere to them. Is there anything in these Commandments that you can't keep?

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
5.Honour thy father and thy mother
6.Thou shalt not kill
7.Thou shalt not commit adultery
8.Thou shalt not steal
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
10.Thou shalt not covet

To be continued....

Number 1 is a question mark. God is very demanding, so by His standard I have had other gods.
Never made any graven images and I'm sure it means much more
Who NEVER cursed? But not anymore
Do we REALLY keep the Sabbath holy?? We try.
Have gotten upset with mother and/or father many times
By Jesus' standards - yes
There's something wrong with me - I really love my husband!
Many ways to steal, as I used to teach kids. I could steal somebody's time, their reputation, etc.
Never lied about my neighbor in or out of court
Yeah. I covet - but not material things. God knows.

So are you saying I can't save myself?
Are you saying I'm not saved?
This is what I say: If I didn't know God, I'd be a wreck.

Wondering

 

[for_his_glory]

I live by the dictates of Jesus in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 which says every Word of God is applicable to man and that includes ME. That's why I brought it up. Trying to toss away Gods Words on the basis of "who" they were delivered to doesn't and will not compute.



And your claim, which is not true btw, is that is ALL those Words of God mean and are intended for. I reject that claim on the basis I delineated prior. The Apostles never threw away Gods Words of the O.T. Not one single Word of God was eliminated by them.

Do temple writings of the O.T. shadow temple matters in the new? ABSOLUTELY.

I would never disregard any of Gods word. I would be a fool to take away or add to as God gives warning on that, Rev 22:18, 19. My whole point is to live by the greatest commandment of them all, which is love, Matthew 22:37-40, especially within the moral laws. It's how God would expect us to act towards our neighbor no matter what they do against us. The OT is the foreshadow of Christ who came by the grace of God in the NT. The 613 laws God gave in the OT were given under the old covenant, 2Corinthians 3:14, but also came with a curse if not all 613 were followed.

God gave us a new covenant through Christ (grace), 2Corinthians 3:6, that we are no longer under the letter of the law for the letter kills, as now we are under the spirit that gives us life. Hebrews 8:7; 10:1-9 says if the first covenant had been faultless then we would have never needed a second covenant. The law of God was written in stone, but the law of Christ is written in our hearts which is love that we remain pleasing to the Father in all our conduct.

 

[GodsGrace]

Will note once more. Repenting or being sorry doesn't change the fact that we are sinners. Nor will responsibility or accountability change that fact either.

We might just have to come to the conclusion that we are sinners and that Jesus saves sinners.

I asked JLB a question and it got me to thinking.
I'm kind of sorry we have to be so careful with words, but it's all we've got.

Are we sinners
Or do we sin

You want to believe we're sinners. This is true in the sense that we continue to sin so we're sinners.

But in the sense of what NATURE we have, we can no longer say we're SINNERS once we've come to know the Lord and wish to serve Him. Then what happens is that we sin, but we are not sinners. Being a sinner is a matter of our nature. Our nature changes once we get to know Jesus. It's normal - we want to please Him and not sadden the Holy Spirit.

It's this idea: Do you steal because you're a thief OR Are you a thief because you steal.
If YOU'RE A THIEF that is a matter of nature. Your nature is to be a thief.
If I steal something you could call me a thief, but I'm not one by nature. I just happened to steal something.

I don't know if I'm going to be careful about this wording in the future, but this is how I understand it to be.
I repeat, Romans 12:2

Wondering

 

[smaller]

I would never disregard any of Gods word. I would be a fool to take away or add to as God gives warning on that, Rev 22:18, 19.

Brilliant deduction. My observation is that every Word of God has and retains "present tense" applicability and relativity to all of us. And that applicability, both good and BAD.

My whole point is to live by the greatest commandment of them all, which is love, Matthew 22:37-40, especially within the moral laws.

I would never equate Gods Words with mans versions of 'morality.' No matter how moral we live, we are still sinners, regardless. Gods Word of Law doesn't accept mere moral external actions to fulfill any commandment, it demands Perfection. And none of us can conjure that up nor does human morality fulfill Perfection nor is it capable of doing so. We can try to claim we are "moral sinners" and that is truthful, but is that really logical? There is no such person as a "legal sinner." They do not exist. Nor is there any such person as "a moral sinner." Such notions are logical fallacies on the surface just by reading the terms of such claims.

It's how God would expect us to act towards our neighbor no matter what they do against us. The OT is the foreshadow of Christ who came by the grace of God in the NT. The 613 laws God gave in the OT were given under the old covenant, 2Corinthians 3:14, but also came with a curse if not all 613 were followed.

The law did then no differently than it does today.

By the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20
By the law sin becomes exceedinly sinful. Romans 7:13
By the law sin obtains it's strength. 1 Cor. 15:56

None of these workings can be stopped or ceased by anyone no matter how they view it.

God gave us a new covenant through Christ (grace), 2Corinthians 3:6, that we are no longer under the letter of the law for the letter kills,

The law was meant to do exactly that. See Paul's statement in Romans 7:11. That's exactly "how" we are to "apply it." There is no eradication of the Law to not do this work. It is specifically against lawless sinners and we are all sinners. So yes, it does apply to do exactly that.

We do take the condemnation of our indwelling sin/evil present under the Law. That's what it's for. We don't dodge that conclusion. Not under morality and not under legalism.

People can claim they follow all 10 Commandments all the time, perfectly, or are moral or are legal.

The fact of being sinners didn't move off the spot in doing so.

We DO live under the condemnation that Jesus brought.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This condemnation didn't evaporate. Jesus under Grace isn't allowing any sin or evil to squeak past the door. Not even a thought of it. On this basis our flesh, in which dwells sin and evil present, remains contrary to the Spirit (Gal. 5:17) and this also makes our bodies VILE (Phil. 3:21)

As distasteful as the conclusions are, they are truthful. Being moral or claiming to be legal is not going to change these facts.

We all only and always like to think of the entirety of ourselves as NOT contrary to the Spirit in any way, shape or form. And that is simply not true.

These facts make the theological scriptural bed of unmerited favor/Grace and Divine Mercy from God God in Christ. Were it not so, we'd have neither.

 

[smaller]

I asked JLB a question and it got me to thinking.
I'm kind of sorry we have to be so careful with words, but it's all we've got.

Are we sinners
Or do we sin

Sin indwells our flesh, always, as long as we are alive in it. Romans 7:17-20
Evil is present with us no differently than it was with Paul. Romans 7:21

No amount of fancy theological dancing is going to slide by these facts.

You want to believe we're sinners.

It doesn't take a genius to come to that conclusion.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,

This conclusion does not change.

This is true in the sense that we continue to sin so we're sinners.

The conclusion is NOT confirmed by the action of sin then making us sinners. We are sinners, period, because sin indwells our flesh and evil is present with us. Act or no act on the outside. There is simply no getting around the conclusion.

But in the sense of what NATURE we have, we can no longer say we're SINNERS once we've come to know the Lord and wish to serve Him.

We sure can if we want to be liars and hypocrites about it. There is no value in either posture.

What are we going to say? That we're moral lying hypocrites or legally obedient lying hypocrites?

I hope you see the dilemma of falling into these traps, and yes they are traps, purposefully set to show us how deceptive evil present and indwelling sin in our own hearts really is.

Then what happens is that we sin, but we are not sinners. Being a sinner is a matter of our nature. Our nature changes once we get to know Jesus. It's normal - we want to please Him and not sadden the Holy Spirit.

Indwelling sin and evil present has a mind of it's own. They are entirely beyond our control. Paul defined that the sin indwelling his flesh WAS NOT him. Twice no less just to emphasize the point in Romans 7:17-20. Did Paul have control over NOT him? No. It does what it does and it won't change what it does. Paul said clearly that "his flesh" served the LAW OF SIN. Romans 7:25. He described it as being a wretched man because of it who looked FORWARD to his eventual deliverance from this state. Romans 7:24/Phil. 3:21.

I understand that dilemma myself. I HATE the sin that indwells my own flesh and the evil present with me. Yet to say I don't have either makes me a LIAR and a hypocrite. And I'm not interested in that either.

IF we observe closely, Jesus tells us that this is mandatory hatred to be His disciple:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

It's this idea: Do you steal because you're a thief OR Are you a thief because you steal.

The mere THOUGHT of either is evil and defiling, internally. Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

If YOU'RE A THIEF that is a matter of nature. Your nature is to be a thief.
If I steal something you could call me a thief, but I'm not one by nature. I just happened to steal something.

Indwelling sin and evil present doesn't change it's stripes for anyone, whether they do an external act or not. The heart is deceitful above ALL THINGS and desperately wicked. That is a pretty dire statement of facts. Just chew on that fact for a bit.

In fact the heart is SO DISHONEST it can not be truthful about any of these factual conditions and will lie to no end about not being any of them.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I don't know if I'm going to be careful about this wording in the future, but this is how I understand it to be.
I repeat, Romans 12:2

Wondering

I might suggest that being honest is part of that process, of Romans 12:2. We DO have to take the bad news facts on some subjects in Gods Words, and not run away from the conclusions. The Gospel in these ways is quite offensive, and few care to deal with it truthfully.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I agree with you. I think what the O.P. is saying is that if we're born again and love God we WILL obey His commandments. I think he's saying that there are consequences to NOT obeying them. He used the example of divorce. I like to use the example of smoking -whether or not one thinks it's a sin. It certainly isn't something God would want us to do. So if you don't smoke you have less of a chance of getting a lung disease, and if you do smoke, you have a great chance of getting a lung disease - which would make the evil one very happy.

So, yes, of course it's a heart thing and we can't see people's hearts. BUT GOD CAN.
We can judge a persons actions - not their soul. Only God could know a person's heart and soul.

Your post reminded me of Jeremiah 31:33
One of my favorite scriptures.

In the colored sentence (my doing) you say you put no burden on the new believer because the more you know the more is required. I agree with this. God can only judge us by the light we have. Then you say you have no commandment but to love another. The most difficult one! And that one will cover for all the others.

Wondering

Agreed.

 

[JohnDB]

I remember Job.

The last chapter.

Job had been accused of every kind of known sin conceivable and others inconceivable. But he denied committing any of them....likely he was innocent of any sin he had been accused of.
He kept asking for an advocate to plead his innocence to God.

But when he seen God....he repented in dust and ashes and despised himself.

A truly innocent man who kept the Law...but despised himself when he met God. He recognized that even though he was innocent that he still needed a Savior.

Now everyone wants to give the Pharisees a bad name... But in all reality they were the "good guys". They followed the Law and were well respected by everyone. They never broke the Laws. They had verifiable humility, generosity, and kindness. They were never self appointed. And Jesus himself said that unless our righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees we were doomed to destruction. So what is the best?
Doing your best but having faith in our Savior.
Who is to say what is your best?
No one but Jesus... And He knows your heart. No pulling anything over on him.

So how can we know who is really saved or not?
We can't; but we know who exhibits Spiritual fruit beyond mere words. And those are the ones I hang out with.

I'm a fruit judge... Nothing more.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sin indwells our flesh, always, as long as we are alive in it. Romans 7:17-20
Evil is present with us no differently than it was with Paul. Romans 7:21

No amount of fancy theological dancing is going to slide by these facts.

It doesn't take a genius to come to that conclusion.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,

This conclusion does not change.

The conclusion is NOT confirmed by the action of sin then making us sinners. We are sinners, period, because sin indwells our flesh and evil is present with us. Act or no act on the outside. There is simply no getting around the conclusion.

We sure can if we want to be liars and hypocrites about it. There is no value in either posture.

What are we going to say? That we're moral lying hypocrites or legally obedient lying hypocrites?

I hope you see the dilemma of falling into these traps, and yes they are traps, purposefully set to show us how deceptive evil present and indwelling sin in our own hearts really is.

Indwelling sin and evil present has a mind of it's own. They are entirely beyond our control. Paul defined that the sin indwelling his flesh WAS NOT him. Twice no less just to emphasize the point in Romans 7:17-20. Did Paul have control over NOT him? No. It does what it does and it won't change what it does. Paul said clearly that "his flesh" served the LAW OF SIN. Romans 7:25. He described it as being a wretched man because of it who looked FORWARD to his eventual deliverance from this state. Romans 7:24/Phil. 3:21.

I understand that dilemma myself. I HATE the sin that indwells my own flesh and the evil present with me. Yet to say I don't have either makes me a LIAR and a hypocrite. And I'm not interested in that either.

IF we observe closely, Jesus tells us that this is mandatory hatred to be His disciple:

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

The mere THOUGHT of either is evil and defiling, internally. Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Indwelling sin and evil present doesn't change it's stripes for anyone, whether they do an external act or not. The heart is deceitful above ALL THINGS and desperately wicked. That is a pretty dire statement of facts. Just chew on that fact for a bit.

In fact the heart is SO DISHONEST it can not be truthful about any of these factual conditions and will lie to no end about not being any of them.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I might suggest that being honest is part of that process, of Romans 12:2. We DO have to take the bad news facts on some subjects in Gods Words, and not run away from the conclusions. The Gospel in these ways is quite offensive, and few care to deal with it truthfully.

You know Smaller, we're treading a thin red line here. Do you think man is totally depraved? Do you think even believers are totally depraved? I know we're sinners, I know we sin - but how far are you willing to take this? Am I as bad as Joseph Mengele or Hitler or Stalin? I know we have the sin nature - it's not dead. But we have it under control, it's power is diminished. If before I sinned 10 times a day, maybe now I have it down to just a few. Still too much for God, but it's the best I can do and Jesus will cover for the rest.

The N.T,. tells us t put on Jesus as if He were a garment. Romans 13:14
We're to put aside all those traits it says are the deeds of darkness and do not THINK about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. So we still have the sinful nature but we're not to THINK about it all the time.
We're to set our minds on higher ground.

Ephesians 4:22-23
We're to put off our old self - which is being corrupted be evil desires
We are to be made new in the attitude of our mind and to put on the NEW SELF CREATED TO BE LIKE GOD in true righteousness and holiness. Do you know what holy means? Of course you do. It means to be set aside for service to God. It doesn't mean to be goody goody. Of course if your serving God, by definition you're being good.

Romans 12:2
Maybe you think this is hypocritical thinking, but it's Paul saying all this.
Here in Romans Paul says not to be conformed to this world but to be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of our mind. If he says it, it means it must be possible.

Colossians 3:9
We HAVE TAKEN OFF (past tense) our old selves and have put on our new self which is being (an ongoing work) renewed in the image of its Creator. This is sanctification - the process of becoming sanctified. We BECOME sanctified, we are not sanctified.

And finally,
Galatians 3:26-27
We are all sons of God who have clothed ourselves with Christ (through baptism).

As for Luke 14:26 What exactly do you mean by that? Are you saying Jesus wants us to hate our mother and father? The 5th commandment says to honor your mother and father. Jesus meant that we're to love Him above all else. That doesn't mean you hate the rest, just that you love it less.

You speak of the three free wills.
If I'm saved, I believe the will of the evil one will break through every now and then, but I intend to keep it at bay. The mere fact that I know about it will help me. Maybe God is the only one with true free will - but I intend to lean toward Him.

Knowing all of the above will certainly help us to make right choices, keep unwanted consequences at a minimum and help us to follow the commandments, as God wants us to.

Wondering

 

[for_his_glory]

Brilliant deduction. My observation is that every Word of God has and retains "present tense" applicability and relativity to all of us. And that applicability, both good and BAD.



I would never equate Gods Words with mans versions of 'morality.' No matter how moral we live, we are still sinners, regardless. Gods Word of Law doesn't accept mere moral external actions to fulfill any commandment, it demands Perfection. And none of us can conjure that up nor does human morality fulfill Perfection nor is it capable of doing so. We can try to claim we are "moral sinners" and that is truthful, but is that really logical? There is no such person as a "legal sinner." They do not exist. Nor is there any such person as "a moral sinner." Such notions are logical fallacies on the surface just by reading the terms of such claims.

The law did then no differently than it does today.

By the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20
By the law sin becomes exceedinly sinful. Romans 7:13
By the law sin obtains it's strength. 1 Cor. 15:56

None of these workings can be stopped or ceased by anyone no matter how they view it.



The law was meant to do exactly that. See Paul's statement in Romans 7:11. That's exactly "how" we are to "apply it." There is no eradication of the Law to not do this work. It is specifically against lawless sinners and we are all sinners. So yes, it does apply to do exactly that.

We do take the condemnation of our indwelling sin/evil present under the Law. That's what it's for. We don't dodge that conclusion. Not under morality and not under legalism.

People can claim they follow all 10 Commandments all the time, perfectly, or are moral or are legal.

The fact of being sinners didn't move off the spot in doing so.

We DO live under the condemnation that Jesus brought.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This condemnation didn't evaporate. Jesus under Grace isn't allowing any sin or evil to squeak past the door. Not even a thought of it. On this basis our flesh, in which dwells sin and evil present, remains contrary to the Spirit (Gal. 5:17) and this also makes our bodies VILE (Phil. 3:21)

As distasteful as the conclusions are, they are truthful. Being moral or claiming to be legal is not going to change these facts.

We all only and always like to think of the entirety of ourselves as NOT contrary to the Spirit in any way, shape or form. And that is simply not true.

These facts make the theological scriptural bed of unmerited favor/Grace and Divine Mercy from God God in Christ. Were it not so, we'd have neither.

The moral laws are directly given by God, not by man, that were written on stone as He gave instruction for our conduct as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood, the poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family, forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants, vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures, injuries and damages, property and property rights, Criminal laws, prophecy, idolatry and all its practices. All of these moral laws of God are found within the 613 laws.

There is no one that is righteous as all have sinned and fallen short of Gods glory as that is the fleshly nature of man. As a child of God He perfects us daily as we draw closer to Him, but yet we are not perfect, but being perfected. We do not seek to sin, but yet this flesh will mess up at times by allowing our emotions to take us over. It's like marriage, does God permit divorce; no he does not for what God has joined together as one flesh let no man separate it, Matthew 19:6. God joined man and woman together before sin entered into the hearts of man and woman, Genesis 2:18. Even with the laws God gave to Moses for the people, mans sin hardened hearts now turned to fornication, lust of self and covertness of others property including another mans wife. New laws were added continuously for the transgressions of man and this is how we got the law for divorce which was handed down by Moses in Deuteronomy 24:1-4.

1 Corinthians 7:10, Jesus commands the woman not to leave her husband and if she does she should remain unmarried, but in Malachi 2:10-16 the treachery that man commits against a woman which leads him to have an affair outside of the marriage or abuses the wife whether it be physical or emotional gives place to what was said by Moses in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 that if a woman is no longer pleasing to her husband then the husband should give his wife a written bill of divorcement and send her out of the house and this gives the woman the right to marry again, but she can never go back to her former husband if that marriage does not work out or her husband dies for now she is defiled to be with her first husband and this is an abomination to God. (A woman can also cause treachery in a marriage)

For a good marriage to work one should study 2 Corinthians 6:14 be ye not unequally yoked together with non-believers for what fellowship hath righteous with unrighteous, and what communion has light with darkness. If you are a believer in Jesus Christ then you need to choose a mate that also believes in the faith of Christ. In some marriages people do not enter into a relationship with Christ being the center of it, but maybe one of them come to know the Lord and the other one refuses to have that personal relationship with Christ then we go back to what 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 says. If the unbelieving partner leaves the believing partner then this frees the believing partner from the bondage of the vows of marriage and they are free to marry again.

 

[JLB]

Sin is not capable of stopping The Love of God Expressed in Christ, period.

Never said it did.

We are not made sinless by our beliefs. None of us. I am not interested in being made into a liar or a hypocrite by phony theology. Is the Law of God adverse to me? Yes. Because I am a sinner and the law has proven this to me beyond any doubt. I just came to an honest conclusion about it.

My bad? Or am I being truthful?

Your not being truthful.

If you want to believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, that you are a sinner, then you sir have taken the power of faith, and cursed yourself.

You seem to be more concentrated on what the devil can do, and have set your beliefs on him, and his abilities to deceive.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

A sinner is someone who lives a lifestyle of practicing sin.

Sinners by default need to be saved, so that they can walk in righteousness.

WE are called to become the righteousness of God in Christ.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin... 1 John 3:7-9

You have made excuses to blame the devil, and have misquoted 1 John 3:8, and claimed sin is of the devil.

This is to further your theory that all will be saved, because it's the devil in our flesh that does the sinning, be the person doesn't and will not be held accountable for sinning.

According to your theory, Judas would not be held accountable for his betrayal.

23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?”
He said to him, “You have said it.”

and again

Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!
Luke 17:1


This is the last time I will address this subject with you here in this thread.


To Chopper -

I apologize to Chopper, but this gentleman has many "ideas" that are from misunderstanding and misquoting the scriptures, and since this thread is about the subject of salvation, I will address him in this, but not again.

I have had this conversation with him in other threads, and is theology is based on, 2 Corinthians 12:7-8

And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 2 Corinthians 12:7-8

His teaching goes on to say, that everyone has Satan, or a messenger of Satan in their flesh, and that it is this devil in our flesh that is doing the sinning, not the person.

He then cites 1 John 3;8 to prove that we all have devils in our flesh, and it is the devil that is doing the sinning and not the person.

He who sins is of the devil... 1 John 3:8


This verse says "He" who sins is of the devil, not the devil doing the sinning.

So his "theory" is all will be saved in the end because the devil in our flesh will go to hell, but the person will go to heaven, not matter how much he sins, because we are all "sinners".

I just though I would explain this as I have come to learn what this man believes.


Thanks JLB

 

[ezrider]

You want to believe we're sinners. This is true in the sense that we continue to sin so we're sinners.

But in the sense of what NATURE we have, we can no longer say we're SINNERS once we've come to know the Lord and wish to serve Him. Then what happens is that we sin, but we are not sinners. Being a sinner is a matter of our nature. Our nature changes once we get to know Jesus. It's normal - we want to please Him and not sadden the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 3:21-22
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Hebrews 10:1-2
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Romans 7:21-25
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[ezrider]

John 1:16-17
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


Romans 5:20-21
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

How could we know the Grace of the Lord except through the knowledge of sin? For if you were sinless, then you would be in no need of Grace, and without Grace, how shall the Glory of the Lord be revealed in you?

 

[smaller]

Your not being truthful.

If you want to believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, that you are a sinner, then you sir have taken the power of faith, and cursed yourself.

I'll be in excellent company:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

You seem to be more concentrated on what the devil can do, and have set your beliefs on him, and his abilities to deceive.

Nah. It's just problematic to claim to be a believer or live a christian life style and not be honest to scriptural disclosures.

Pretty simple premise.

 

[smaller]

The moral laws are directly given by God, not by man, that were written on stone as He gave instruction for our conduct as in prayers and blessings, love and brotherhood, the poor and unfortunate, treatment of the Gentiles, Marriage, divorce and family, forbidden sexual relations, business practices, employees and servants, vows, oaths, swearing, Court and Judicial procedures, injuries and damages, property and property rights, Criminal laws, prophecy, idolatry and all its practices. All of these moral laws of God are found within the 613 laws.

So, you'll opt for the "moral sinner" claim? I honestly just don't see that being possible.

There is no one that is righteous

Yes, much more truthful. I kinda figured that it's hard to be in truth and not be truthful.