Chopper
Member
I'm not sure what you are asking. Reba is right. Your question belongs in another thread & forum and technically, it's off topic here.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study SO YOU THINK YOU ARE SAVED.
- Thread starter Chopper
- Start date
I'm not sure what you are asking. Reba is right. Your question belongs in another thread & forum and technically, it's off topic here.
Hyper-Grace teaches that when you believe in Christ, that moment, all YOUR sin, past, present and future, without your confession of any sin, is forgiven...
Lets look at what Jesus said are the grounds for forgiveness.
3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17
The basis of having your sins forgiven is repenting.
We also know from the rest of the teaching from Matthew 18, that if we don't forgive from the heart, then neither will our heavenly Father forgive us.
So much so, that we can indeed be forgiven, then later have that very forgiveness revoked, and end up being punished for our sins.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35
Notice that the fellow servant, who owed him a hundred denarii, did humbled himself and ask for mercy, and time to pay the debt, which is the attitude of repentance, yet was given no mercy or forgiveness from the man who had just been forgiven the greater debt.
The Point: To expect to be forgiven, we need to confess our sins and repent.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
I don't find any scripture that says if we simply believe in Jesus Christ, all of our sins, past present and future are automatically forgiven at that moment, no matter how we continue to live our lives, and no matter if we never confess another sin.
JLB
smaller
Member
There is no if. The flesh won't and can't accept it's condemnation for what it is factually subject to.
smaller
Member
There is no overcoming for the flesh either. The flesh will continually try to wriggle out and away from the conclusions of scripture. That's what it does.
IF we are walking in the Spirit, we continually "agree" with the Spirit, that the flesh is against and contrary to the Spirit.
The flesh can't and won't go there. It will always look for the out on the ground of "if."
smaller
Member
The flesh of every believer is and remains contrary to and against the Spirit. The flesh won't take that conclusion, ever.
There is a common fantasy that the flesh is "obedient." Or the flesh is only contrary to and against the Spirit when "it sins" or when it fails.
It always is against the Spirit, always contrary to the Spirit and never can take the conclusion that it is so. Which is the point of the exercise.
In reality God in Christ is both for and against us, continually. The Spirit is and will remain contrary to and against the flesh. There is no escape from this conclusion for those in the Spirit. They will simply agree with that conclusion because that IS the conclusion of the Spirit.
smaller
Member
IF we understand that our flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit and "why" we'd understand that the GIFT of the Spirit in this matter is HONESTY. Or not, as the case proves itself.
Ok how about the rest of the person, The inner man, the spirit and soul?
The Spirit of God within us empowers us to walk in dominion over the flesh and it's desires, whereby we put these deeds of the flesh to death and not let them manifest, though the desire is there within the flesh to sin, we have power to walk by what our spirit, filled and empowered by the Spirit of Christ, desires, which is pleasing to God.
IOW we can walk in dominion over sin dwelling in our flesh, whereby we do the things that please God, rather than do the things that please our flesh.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
You put to death...
You...
JLB
JLB
Just to clarify. Of course one has to repent and ask forgiveness to be forgiven. But when one comes to believe in Jesus, his sins are forgiven, don't you think? When one comes to believe in the Lord, he is usually very sorry for his past sins, he usually has a contrite spirit when asking Jesus to come into his life.
Now of course, I have to state that I'm always meaning the Greek "believe" when following Jesus and believing in Him. The scripture that comes to mind here is Mark 16:16
He who has believed... shall be saved, he who has not believed shall be condemned.
So upon acceptance of salvation, I'd have to say that past sins are forgiven.
Wondering
P.S. I agree re present and future sins.
smaller
Member
Establish this scriptural premise.
Scripture has concluded all under sin. Gal. 3:22
The scripture has concluded that the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17
Will the flesh ever escape these conclusions? Yea or Nay.
If we are honest to the scriptural discourse, the answer can only be NAY.
Now, ask, if this is so, can the flesh ever be legally obedient? Can the flesh ever be for the Spirit? Can the flesh ever NOT be contrary to the Spirit.
Again, the answers here won't change. And the "truthful" answer, the flesh will not and can not accept.
True. But you do understand the frailty of claiming one and not the other? Because that is dishonest. We walk in the Spirit, taking the truth of Word conclusions along with it. The Spirit says it is against the flesh and contrary to the flesh. There is no honest escape from that conclusion toward our flesh.
Manifestation shows a different form of slaveship to the flesh and the workings therein. The fact however is that manifested or not, the flesh is and remains contrary to the Spirit. No flesh can magnify itself over any other flesh. On the ground of ALL flesh being contrary to and against the Spirit.
Do any of us then have bragging rights? Never.
We can however enter into honesty about this fact. That is the reward of agreement with the Spirit as it pertains to our own flesh.
This status is meant to be equalizing grounds for every member of the church. And understanding it will draw us away from lying braggarts, because they are instantly revealed to be such whenever they make a contrary to the Spirit determination.
1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Your reply is for: for his glory
I'd have to agree that we don't OVERCOME the flesh. These are words and I always say that words are not sufficient in these matters.
To me "overcome" means we're not going to sin anymore. I like to use the word "submission". We put the flesh under submission - this because we continue to sin and if we had "overcome" the flesh, we would never sin again.
Also, you say to Jethro Bodine that the flesh is always against the spririt. There is this continual tug of war - this is true. The flesh is against the spirit. But can you see no glory in our righteousness in Christ?
2 Corinthians 3:3-11
Wondering
I forgot the WHY of the contrariness. Or the tug of war against flesh and spirit. Because satan wants to win the tug of war.
Last edited:
smaller
Member
We overcome when we have the gift of the Spirit in these matters, which is honesty.
How many people in this thread think that their flesh is "acceptable" when it does not do an external deed of sin? I'd have to say at this junction, everyone.
The Spirit lays upon all of us this fact: that our own flesh is and remains contrary to the Spirit.
This conclusion does not change, whether the reality of it is manifested externally or not. The Spirit sees the flesh for what it is and that sight will not and can not change.
The Spirit is against the flesh. The Spirit is contrary to the flesh.
This is the only honest conclusion. Non manifestation will not change the conclusions.
The progression of sin is from thought to word to deed. The perpetual state of the flesh however does not change. It is under sin because of non-manifested indwelling sin and evil present with us, a perpetual state of the flesh.
Just because a person dominates over the flesh does not change the flesh into something other than what it is. Contrary to and against the Spirit.
So ask me how many believers flesh is NOT contrary to and against the Spirit. I'll honestly say ZERO, and put my own flesh under that sight, perpetually. Because it is honest and honesty pleases my inner man of the Spirit.
Smaller,
I'd have to say that every believers flesh is against the spirit. I don't think anyone here is saying otherwise.
I think what is important to know is that we could have victory over the flesh, not because we deserve it or because it doesn't want to sin or because it becomes pure in some magical way - but because our belief in Jesus, and THROUGH, Him, we could have a victory over the flesh in the sense that it will not dominate us.
Isn't this the difference between the Mosaic (Old) Covenant and the New Covenant?
We're not trying to get to heaven by our own works anymore - that doesn't work precisely because of the contrariness, as you call it. The flesh and spirit are at odds with each other.
The New Covenant puts us under the blood of Christ. In Exodus 11/12 the angel of death passed over the houses with the blood on the door frame. It's the same with the New Covenant. We deserve death. We're born dead and would die dead if it were not for Christ. The angel of death will pass over our very being because the blood of Christ is saving us.
And in that, is there no glory? The glory is the very fact that the angel of death passes over those who have Christ. Is God not stronger than satan?
1 John 4:4
1 John 5:4-5
What overcomes the world? Faith. Our faith is the overcomer, not our flesh.
Wondering
smaller
Member
IF the flesh is against and contrary to the Spirit, which it is, it is disingenuous to try to apply any sight otherwise.
Which is the general point.
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Galatians 3:22
Now we have died to sin, and are no longer under it's dominion.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
- How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
- our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Here is some Good News for you today, Smaller... we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. James 4:7
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
... the wicked one does not touch him.
... does not touch him.
JLB
Mortify means to discipline ones body and physical appetites by self denial. It's like Paul's thorn in the flesh that flesh is our weakest area and will always sin. It is only when we use that power and authority that God gave us through grace that we find strength in God to win the battle over the flesh. Gods word is full of conjunctions (and, if, but) as God gives instruction, but it's our choice to make the right decision.
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
smaller
Member
The right decision will not change the honest conclusion that the flesh is against the Spirit and contrary to the Spirit. No amounts of choices or actions are going to change that honest conclusion. As much as the flesh would like to claim otherwise on the basis of choice.
Choice will NOT avoid the honest conclusion. An HONEST choice will fall headlong inline with the Spirit's conclusion. A dishonest choice will conclude the opposite as the Spirit.
Will any choice avoid the fact that the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit?
No.
And even if the flesh makes that claim, it is a liar, regardless. And it is so because of the workings of the tempter therein.
...............We know the flesh is contrary to the Spirit............no one is denying that! You are right that choice does not avoid the conclusion that this flesh is evil, but it is by our choice whether we will give into the temptations of the fleshly desires.You put a cookie on the table and tell your child to not touch it. If that child is disciplined properly they will not touch the cookie. The desire is there and very tempting, but the child knows it is a wrong thing to take what was not given to them. Same with we who are in Christ and He in us. The temptation is always there, but it's Gods strength in our weakness (flesh) that safeguards us from following through with what we have been tempted with. Resist the devil and he will flee.
smaller
Member
Never said that either. That is a gnostic heresy.
The flesh is 'subject' to the intrusion/presence of the tempter. It is the tempter who is evil and the evil present with us. The "flesh" is the hold of the tempter.
If you observe the "other" party involved, you'd understand "why" the flesh is contrary to and against the Spirit and why it will remain that way regardless of choices or analogies.
Whatever analogy or choice anyone cares to employ, it will avail the tempter in the flesh, exactly NADA. And the flesh will not escape the conclusions of scripture, contrary to and against the Spirit, regardless.
This seems to present a big gulp moment for everyone who "thinks" they are in the Spirit, when they have to confront the reality of their own contrary to and against the Spirit flesh. Fleshly minds can't get there.