Saved by Grace Through Faith, Not by Works

[Nathan]

Who said so?
Christ himself is eternal life (1 John 5:20 NASB). And Christ is in these dead and dying bodies of ours via the Holy Spirit.

Good point. That is the truth of the matter really. The Spirit lives in us, Himself being the eternal life.

My statement is that it cannot be eternal life in and of ourselves. In other words, our souls are not 'made' to be eternal life, but the Spirit of God gives life to us. It's a 'flow' of His life in us - which cannot be independent of Him.

There are some who think we, our souls, are made to be eternal - whether or not the Spirit is in us. They state this eternal life is a gift, as in something in addition to, the Spirit of God.

 

[Douglas Summers]

So is our submitting a work?

No, submitting is letting the Holy Spirit work in you. It is not you using the Holy Spirit, it is the Spirit that works in free sovereignty through the submitting believer. Not I, but Christ in us. Too many Christians hinder and grieve the Holy Spirit by not submitting.(1 Cor.7-11)

 

[Jim Parker]

Please cite any verse that plainly warns of loss of eternal life then.

2 PE 2:20-22 For IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Please do NOT hijack this thread to push your OSAS stuff.​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There are some who think we, our souls, are made to be eternal - whether or not the Spirit is in us. They state this eternal life is a gift, as in something in addition to, the Spirit of God.

Which is why I think it's important to focus on the quality of life aspect of eternal life rather than the never-ending aspect of eternal life. There's something implied in the term 'eternal life' that 'never-ending' simply does not address all by itself. And that something is by far the most important and meaningful aspect of eternal life.

our souls are not 'made' to be eternal life, but the Spirit of God gives life to us. It's a 'flow' of His life in us - which cannot be independent of Him.

And this is why the term 'eternal life' is a term that should only be used in the context of the never-ending life that God gives his people, even though unbelievers also have a never-ending existence separated from God (assuming one does not believe in annihilism where the damned are eventually extinguished altogether).

There are three distinct Greek words for 'life' in the Bible. The life that comes from God to his people is not just never-ending physical life, but zoe life, an abundant quality of life that we will live forevermore in the kingdom of God.

1. Bios, in Luke 8:14: “…anxieties and riches and pleasure of this life.” This Greek word refers to the life of the physical body and is where we get the word biology.

2. Psuche, in Matt. 16:25: “For whoever wants to save his soul-life shall lose it.” The Greek word here refers to the psychological life of the human soul, that is, the mind, emotion, and will. It is where we get the word psychology.

3. Zoe, in John 1:4: “In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.” Here the Greek word refers to the uncreated, eternal life of God, the divine life uniquely possessed by God.​

I highly encourage everyone to read this link where the above comes from: http://biblesforamerica.org/greek-words-for-life/. It's a good article.

 

[chessman]

3. Zoe, in John 1:4: “In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.” Here the Greek word refers to the uncreated, eternal life of God, the divine life uniquely possessed by God.

Which is what Paul says belivers who have been enslaved to God HAVE in Rom 6:22 as the outcome. It has been gifted to us. It was (not will be) a derived a gift.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.​

 

[chessman]

Bios, in Luke 8:14: “…anxieties and riches and pleasure of this life.” This Greek word refers to the life of the physical body and is where we get the word biology.

You and me (and the rocky ground) received Bios from our fathers who received bios from their fathers who received bios from Adam. Problem is, bios is cursed to one day die. We have bios of the flesh only "for a while" giving us an opportunity to derive Zoe from our Father.

We slaves of God HAVE derived eternal life, which was and is my point in this thread.

 

[Nathan]

Which is why I think it's important to focus on the quality of life aspect of eternal life rather than the never-ending aspect of eternal life. There's something implied in the term 'eternal life' that 'never-ending' simply does not address all by itself. And that something is by far the most important and meaningful aspect of eternal life.


And this is why the term 'eternal life' is a term that should only be used in the context of the never-ending life that God gives his people, even though unbelievers also have a never-ending existence separated from God (assuming one does not believe in annihilism where the damned are eventually extinguished altogether).

There are three distinct Greek words for 'life' in the Bible. The life that comes from God to his people is not just never-ending physical life, but zoe life, an abundant quality of life that we will live forevermore in the kingdom of God.

1. Bios, in Luke 8:14: “…anxieties and riches and pleasure of this life.” This Greek word refers to the life of the physical body and is where we get the word biology.

2. Psuche, in Matt. 16:25: “For whoever wants to save his soul-life shall lose it.” The Greek word here refers to the psychological life of the human soul, that is, the mind, emotion, and will. It is where we get the word psychology.

3. Zoe, in John 1:4: “In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.” Here the Greek word refers to the uncreated, eternal life of God, the divine life uniquely possessed by God.​

I highly encourage everyone to read this link where the above comes from: http://biblesforamerica.org/greek-words-for-life/. It's a good article.

Its good to see the differences in what the Bible calls life. And I do see that there is a quality of life difference between them all. However, the Bible, when talking about "eternal" life, does not use quality words to describe it, but quantitative words. "Eternal" is a quantitative word and so we must first, and foremost, view that 'zoe' life as such.

It is imperative to see it as such, because then we see where this life comes from, and where it exists. Since it is "eternal", that means it is without beginning or end. When we apply that kind of life to our self, before it is true, then it detracts from the true source of that life. If we view it only as a quality, then we fool ourselves in this current - temporal - life.

 

[Nathan]

You and me (and the rocky ground) received Bios from our fathers who received bios from their fathers who received bios from Adam. Problem is, bios is cursed to one day die. We have bios of the flesh only "for a while" giving us an opportunity to derive Zoe from our Father.

We slaves of God HAVE derived eternal life, which was and is my point in this thread.

Do you believe that the soul(psuche) was cursed to die along with the bios?

 

[chessman]

Do you believe that the soul(psuche) was cursed to die along with the bios?

No, of course not. Do you?

Ezekiel 18:4 (NASB) Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die. ​

Only the souls that remain enslaved to sin can be destroyed in Hell.

Romans 6:20-21 (NASB) For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.


Matthew 10:28 (NASB) Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ​

Our souls have the option (free choice) to choose righteousness and become enslaved to God and it's outcome, eternal life. Our ole flesh is cursed and has no such option.

Souls that have become enslaved to God have derived great benefits, namely God's eternal life. Simple really. But more important, Biblical.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

 

[Nathan]

No, of course not. Do you?

Ezekiel 18:4 (NASB) Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die. ​

Only the souls that remain enslaved to sin can be destroyed in Hell.

Romans 6:20-21 (NASB) For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.


Matthew 10:28 (NASB) Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ​

Our souls have the option (free choice) to choose righteousness and become enslaved to God and it's outcome, eternal life. Our ole flesh is cursed and has no such option.

Souls that have become enslaved to God have derived great benefits, namely God's eternal life. Simple really. But more important, Biblical.

Romans 6:22 (NASB) But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. ​

Ah, I see. This is where things often can get mixed up - thoughts that is. I did not mean 'cursed to die' as in without a way of having life - being renewed. I meant in the beginning - those without Christ - was cursed to die.

The flesh is just that, the flesh. I know I have already stated it, but it is just a vessel - a 'body/house' for who we are. It is made of "dirt" which is just a purely physical thing. Honestly, I do not think it was ever meant to go on - and incurred the 'curse' simply because its attached to us. Same as creation itself. Creation did not 'sin', but is going to be destroyed anyways.

This is why we need to understand that the whole passage in Corinthians(mainly), when speaking of our 'heavenly bodies', is simply stating that when we receive the outcome of our faith, we will have to have 'matching' bodies for our eternal souls to live in. Simply put, the body is nothing without a soul to occupy it.

This is how Jesus 'died' in a very real sense, not just a figuratively death. I am not sure what false doctrine it is off the top of my head, but there is one that teaches Jesus did not actually die, just His "flesh" died, and that's how He was raised from the grave.

Dangerous thought process, because if Jesus did not actually die, then our sins have not been paid for.

 

[Nathan]

Our souls have the option (free choice) to choose righteousness and become enslaved to God and it's outcome, eternal life. Our ole flesh is cursed and has no such option.

I have a question on this. Do you believe that the option(free choice) is always there for an unbeliever? Does this choice change when a person becomes a believer?

Or, are you speaking above just about believers, not unbelievers?

 

[chessman]

Do you believe that the option(free choice) is always there for an unbeliever?

Sure. That is for all unbeliving human souls in the world.

John 3:16 (NASB) “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.​

Does this choice change when a person becomes a believer?

Of course. The believer changes, right??? How???
I think a believer is united/baptized in Christ once he/she makes a choice and believes. Don't you?

I believe the ole self that once desired to sin is dead in all believers. Don't you?

I believe newly born believers in Christ have derived a new life (eternal in nature) to walk in while we wait on our new flesh to walk in. Don't you?

 

[Nathan]

Sure. That is for all unbeliving human souls in the world.

John 3:16 (NASB) “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.​

Of course. The believer changes, right??? How???
I think a believer is united/baptized in Christ once he/she makes a choice and believes. Don't you?

I believe the ole self that once desired to sin is dead in all believers. Don't you?

I believe newly born believers in Christ have derived a new life (eternal in nature) to walk in while we wait on our new flesh to walk in. Don't you?

Interesting. I see where God has to call to a person before they can believe, and that, just like Pharaoh, a constant rejection of His call will harden a persons heart to the call - to the point where they cannot believe. This is true for believer and unbeliever alike.

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Hebrews 3:5-11
Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later,but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,

on the day of testing in the wilderness,

where your fathers put me to the test

and saw my works for forty years.

Therefore I was provoked with that generation,

and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;

they have not known my ways.’

As I swore in my wrath,

‘They shall not enter my rest.’”

I believe that we should consider that our old man is dead to sin - that's for sure. But the very fact we have to consider it, means that its not an only option. Meaning, Christ freed us from that slavery of sin, but the pull of it is still present. Before it was irresistible, now it is resistible.

I believe the Holy Spirit is life in us, and when we walk according to His leading, then we live in that freedom that Christ gave us. I do not think we can reject the fact that desire is still present in us, constantly trying to draw us away from being led by the Spirit. I think that a believer, unlike an unbeliever, now has two choices - where as the unbeliever only had/has one choice.

Romans 8:5-13
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

What do you make of Romans 8:11? Is it future life or present life?

 

[chessman]

I believe that we should consider that our old man is dead to sin - that's for sure. But the very fact we have to consider it, means that its not an only option.

Interesting point of view considering Paul says we have died to sin and therefore tells us we also walk in the newness of life.

Romans 6:2b (NASB) How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Romans 6:4 (NASB) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
​

Are you aware of any Scripture that tells us we should consider ourselves something we are not? (Not rhetorical question)

Wouldn't it seem hypocritical for us to consider ourselves something we are not?

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.

Good point! I agree.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since it is "eternal", that means it is without beginning or end. When we apply that kind of life to our self, before it is true, then it detracts from the true source of that life.

Apply eternal life to ourselves before it is true?
Christ himself is eternal life. Everybody who has him inside of them through the Holy Spirit has eternal life in them right now. This is what eternal life looks like in a person:

"22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23 NASB)

That is the life we will get in full at the resurrection: "5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness." (Galatians 5:5 NASB)

If we view it only as a quality, then we fool ourselves in this current - temporal - life.

I don't see much practical value in emphasizing the 'forever' aspect of eternal life. The important thing is eternal life is the life you live now, when you walk according to the Spirit (not when you indulge sinful fleshly desires). That's a foretaste of what is to come when we are not just perfectly righteous in a legal sense as we are now, but perfectly righteous through and through. That is the hope of righteousness that we wait patiently for "through the Spirit, by faith" (see above).

 

[chessman]

What do you make of Romans 8:11? Is it future life or present life?

Obviously, I believe the life God will surely give to newly born believer's mortal bodies is in the future.
Just as sure as He who rasied Christ from the dead. Don't you?

Romans 8:11 (NASB) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.​

 

[chessman]

I see where God has to call to a person before they can believe, and that, just like Pharaoh, a constant rejection of His call will harden a persons heart to the call - to the point where they cannot believe. This is true for believer and unbeliever alike.

I see where God has to call to an unbeliever before an unbeliever can believe. And that once an unbeliever believes they are most certainly no longer "just like Pharaoh".

Believers and unbelievers hearts (minds, spirit, souls, the non-physical part of ourselves) are not "alike". Believers getting new hearts AND a new spirit was prophesied a long time ago.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 (LEB) And I will give a new heart to you, and a new spirit I will give into your inner parts, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them.​

Who makes it so new hearts will go in my rules??? God's Spirit (the Holy Spirit) in the inner parts (the non-physical souls) of every believer.

And this giving of a "new heart" (newness of life) AND the Holy Spirit indwelling us has been fullfilled countless times since Pentecost. There is a real, true and clear change at our baptism. No doubt about it. Paul's not describing fiction here. He means these things really do occur. And they do!

Romans 6:4 (NASB) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.​

Yes, we were not physically buried with Jesus in the tomb. So??? We have been (our non-physical part) have been (not will be or might be) buried with Him through baptism.

Romans 10:8 (NASB) But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,​

 

[GodsGrace]

question answered...

 

[chessman]

I don't see much practical value in emphasizing the 'forever' aspect of eternal life.

Jesus saw the practical value of eternal life being forever:

John 6:51 (NASB) I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” ​

So did Paul:

2 Timothy 4:18 (NASB) The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will save me for his heavenly kingdom, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
​

That living forever and saving me for His kingdom sounds pretty practical to me.

And in this life it is strong encouragement to have cc

Hebrews 6:17-20 (NASB) In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. ​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus saw the practical value of eternal life being forever:

John 6:51 (NASB) I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” ​

So did Paul:

2 Timothy 4:18 (NASB) The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will save me for his heavenly kingdom, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
​

That living forever and saving me for His kingdom sounds pretty practical to me.

I guess you don't understand what I mean by 'practical'.
Eternal life being forever is just a fact. It will not, for example, help you beat a porn or alcohol addiction. But the quality of Christ's eternal life will. Out of love of joy, peace, and righteousness one can and will turn away from sin.

But I'm sure you'll be able to think of some way to make it appear that a life never ending in and of itself has practical value. Brace yourself, folks.