I was raised in a wasp church, like millions of others.
It was very long time to learn this - what is simply true , what is simply written in Hebrew (and Greek),
is not simply understood in English nor in most religious teachings.
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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1 John 5:7 Deliberate Hoax? Or Inspired Scripture?
- Thread starter WalterandDebbie
- Start date
It was very long time to learn this - what is simply true , what is simply written in Hebrew (and Greek),
is not simply understood in English nor in most religious teachings.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Then how can we know what is true?
And, if every church teaches the Trinity diffetently, as you just replied to me, how can we know we're being taught the truth?
It doesn’t matter what church or background we come from.
We are to learn and renew our minds with the scriptures, the doctrine of Christ. The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth will lead and guide us into all truth, teaching us the truth.
Jesus Christ the LORD who spoke forth from the mouth of the prophets, testifying of Himself and the things He would suffer.
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11
Anytime we see a prophet declaring, “thus says the Lord”, we know it was the Spirit of Christ, speaking and declaring the word of the LORD.
Jesus Christ is YHWH, The Lord God.
Here is an example:
The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1
This was the LORD Jesus Christ speaking through the prophet Zechariah.
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10
The same LORD God who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth, became flesh and went to the cross for our sins.
JLB
Then why is in the Bible?
Acts 17:29 Godhead
Rom 1:20 Godhead
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Men took liberties translating the bible, that is why.
Is Elohim a singular or plural word?
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Genesis 1:1-26
- Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Is Us and Our singular or plural references?
JLB
The church has a command from Christ to teach all men the Truth revealed by Christ & therefore to condemn all error!
Heresy is treason against God and His revealed truth!
Treason is punishable by death!
The church only has the authority from God to teach the truth and condemn the errors, the state has a duty from God to punish wrongdoers.
Even the timid USA put to death two Jewish communists guilty of treason in the 50’s .
The state has the duty to execute Justice!
The state Does not bear the sword in vain!
Old Testament:
Ez 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
Ez 9:4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
(Even those who did not worship the sun but were not grieved at this offense were slain!)
1 kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
1 kings 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.
(All these false prophets were killed)
Leviticus 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
We don’t apologize for the truth of the gospel of life!
Two edge sword:
The church has received from her savior the “sacred deposit of faith” eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
And has to command from Christ to teach all men matt 28:19 without error Lk 10:16 Jn 20:21 Jn 16:13
To teach, and declare the truth of divine revelation and to condemn all errors!
To Defend and safeguard the sacred deposit of faith and all the faithful from error preserving the purity of the faith of Jesus Christ!
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
God is offended and are you are not grieved?
(Even those who did not offend God but were not grieved at his offense were slain!)
The sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in is offending God!
We should be grieved by it!
Atheism!
Puritanical fundamentalism!
Spiritual and moral anarchy!
Blasphemy!
Free speech, press, etc.
Cursing God to His face!
Hatred of God, Christ, His church and His revealed truth!
An entire culture immersed in the wretchedness of Sin, perversion, iniquity, filth, and impurity!
Not only those who are guilty but anyone who is not GREIVED by such offenses against our Holy God and savior!
Do we implore God’s mercy?
Sing the Divine praises?
Offering prayers?
Lord’s Prayer?
The biblical Hail Mary?
Let God arise let His enemies be scattered, let them that hate Him flee from before His face!
Behold oh God our protector, and look upon the face of Thy Christ!
Admirable is the name of God!
My God I believe, adore, hope, & love Thee, I implore pardon for those who do not.
Not even an “eternal Father, I offer Thee the precious blood of Jesus!
Or
Precious blood of Jesus, save us!
Are copies and translations the inspired word of god? Or only original manuscripts?
Tenchi
Member
I'm rather surprised to read this Oneness polemic against the doctrine of the Trinity from you, WalterandDebbie. I assume, then, that you are of a Pentecostal, or even hyper-Pentecostal bent? Am I correct?
In any case, the quotation above is simply false, giving a highly partisan - which is to say, very skewed - view of the actual truth of the matter. The doctrine of the Trinity did not form out of thin air, as the quotation above seems to imply. Instead, there is a great deal of biblical ground for the Trinitarian view of God.
Matthew 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
"The next development came with the doctrine of the incarnation. If this be admitted, there is no philosophic difficulty in the addition of a third Person in our description of the Trinity. Our Lord developed the teaching by impressing on His disciples the fact that there was a distinction between Himself and His Father, and taught clearly that there was another Person, the 'Paraclete,' whom the Father would send in His name. He describes three Persons as quite distinct."
("In Understanding Be Men: A Handbook of Christian Doctrine." by T.C. Hammond, revised and edited by David F. Wright. pg. 53)
John 14:16-17
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 15:26
26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 17:20-25
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
Mark 1:10-11
10 Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him;
11 and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."
2 Corinthians 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Jesus is God:
Matthew 1:23
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
2 Corinthians 4:4
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 2:9
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
1 Timothy 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.
The Holy Spirit is God:
John 14:23
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
Romans 8:9
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
1 Corinthians 2:11
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 6:19
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
2 Corinthians 6:16
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
1 John 4:12-13
12 No man has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
As the above demonstrates, the assertion that the concept of the Trinity is "completely foreign to the Bible" is quite false. When anyone makes these sorts of propagandist claims, obscuring the facts with sweeping statements, making alternate views seem entirely groundless, it should be understood that getting at the truth is not the aim of such a person but, rather, partisan polemics.
Amen. Agreed.
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:16-21
- that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Those that promote heresies will not inherit the kingdom of God.
It’s heresy to teach anything other than the doctrine of Christ.
- Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
Walking in the Spirit, in which we are led by the Spirit, is the only way to avoid practicing the works of the flesh.
Walking in the Spirit has nothing to do with any denomination or sect, but has everything to do with being led by the Spirit who dwells in us, if indeed He does.
Those who obey Jesus Christ will receive eternal salvation.
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
Obeying Jesus Christ has nothing to do with rituals or man or denominations and certainly nothing to do with Catholicism or Calvinism or any other “isms”.
It’s about our person direct relationship with our Lord, and hearing His voice and following Him, thus being led by His Spirit.
- For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:12-14
JLB
Why the labels and negative rhetoric towards him?
You try and paint him in a negative slant, then turn around to justify your view with a word that isn’t even in scripture.
Trinity is not in scripture.
Godhead is the word the scripture uses or Elohim, a plural form of God.
Please tone down your rhetoric and just use scripture to make a point.
JLB
Good morning Tenchi, No Sir, In our understanding there is but one true Doctrine that even Jesus stated: My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. John 7:16
Walter
Tenchi
Member
My negative rhetoric? I think one who asserts something false like, "The concept of the Trinity is completely foreign to the Bible" is the one employing rhetoric. When one uses such sweeping generalizations, the goal can't be to communicate truth because such a generalization is clearly untrue - as I showed.
Also, "my view" was drawn from the many passages/verses from Scripture that I offered, not some peculiar personal notion about God derived from myself.
Finally, the term "trinity" isn't in the Bible but neither are terms like "soteriology," or "eschatology," or "hamartiology," or "divine aseity," or "monotheism." Nonetheless, each of these terms refer to things clearly present in the Bible.
Oh, and I'd appreciate it if you did as you've urged me to do and "tone down your rhetoric." Rather than deal with the substance of my remarks, you've made a sort of "poisoning the well/ ad hominem" response above that is guilty of the very things of which you've accused me.
Tenchi
Member
Okay. So, you aren't Pentecostal or hyper-Pentecostal in denominational persuasion?
Also, why did you choose to quote the false sweeping statement that I pointed out in my first post? As I showed, it's simply not true that the doctrine is "completely foreign to the Bible."
Tenchi, it is the way of your thinking, why so?
Tenchi
Member
Do you mean do I believe that God is the trinitarian Being the Bible describes Him to be? If so, I have to say, "Yes." I can't deny what is plainly evident in Scripture...
Apostolic Council Of Ephesus – 431 A.D. with authority from Christ to bind and loose the faith of all Christians. Matt 16:19 & 18:18
If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh) let him be anathema.
The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary (lk 1:28)
Mary found our salvation (lk 1:30) Mary consented to our salvation (lk 1:38)
Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:20)
Mary brought fourth our salvation!
(Lk 2:30 Jesus Christ is our salvation)
Thks
No, Sir, I'm not saying that, simply, you are entitled to your belief.
Tenchi
Member
