Eternal Security of the Believer !

[Elijah674]

A brief note on Matt.10:5,6 above. The church was not in existence at that time. In Matt.16:18 it is still future.

I do not know what your point is? Matt. 25 has a WAKE UP MIDNIGHT CRY to an ALL ASLEEP FOLD. (Christs of Isa. 5 prophesied one, verse 3 finds who they as a WHOLE choose BETWIXT!)

So who gave the MIDNIGHT CRY to this parable and why is found in Matt. 10:5-6! And verse 15 finds the ex/fold choosing the empty of Christ Vineyard or fold who stayed put. (they had NO have eternal security!)

OK: No one has said that the Church was yet established! But MAKE NO MISTAKE, that it is here seen in the MAKING! As Rev. 12:17 had a REMNANT, so were these in Matt. 10:5-6 the NUCLEUS start of Christ's [extension of true Israel! Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15].

 

[Webb]

Hi FrustratedForerunner
You asked me to share and I did. I simply took the two passages cited by the previous writer. If you have a specific passage in mind I'll try to give it attention.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm actually surprised nobody put this verse out there.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If we look at the setting here, the writer is writing to the Hebrews who were believers in Jesus as the promised Christ. He is talking about those who have been enlightened by Christ, and have tasted the Good Word of God.

The writer is writing to a group who were being pressured to recant their belief in Jesus due to the pressure put on by the synagogue.

John 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

And who was it that crucified the Son of God? Those who did not believe he was the Son of God.

Jesus points this out in Mark 4.

 

[cyberjosh]

It's not a yo-yo in and out of Christ issue, it's a process of sanctification for salvation.

LOL. That is about spot on what I have said for a long time about this. Except I didn't use a yo-yo as my analogy, I would always say "I don't subscribe to jack-in-the-box theology". Christ and the Holy Spirit do not leave us each time we sin, and then come back when we repent.

Nonetheless, I also have been impressed with the seriousness of Hebrews 6:4-6 and other similar Scriptural warnings for believers not to fall away, as I believe StoveBolts was pointing out.

 

[Jake]

I'm actually surprised nobody put this verse out there.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If we look at the setting here, the writer is writing to the Hebrews who were believers in Jesus as the promised Christ. He is talking about those who have been enlightened by Christ, and have tasted the Good Word of God.

The writer is writing to a group who were being pressured to recant their belief in Jesus due to the pressure put on by the synagogue.

John 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

And who was it that crucified the Son of God? Those who did not believe he was the Son of God.

Jesus points this out in Mark 4.

It seems when we take the Bible and cut it up to say this verse was for "them" only, or this verse was meant for "those", then we miss the intent of the verses that were written for all believers, everywhere for all time.

When we do this, we overlook and dismiss scripture that is there for the intention to warn all believers. We develop a false sense of security that all is well because even though I did "this", I'm ok because that verse isn't meant for me anyway!

Many believe some scripture is not for us today.

 

[cyberjosh]

It seems when we take the Bible and cut it up to say this verse was for "them" only, or this verse was meant for "those", then we miss the intent of the verses that were written for all believers, everywhere for all time.

When we do this, we overlook and dismiss scripture that is there for the intention to warn all believers. We develop a false sense of security that all is well because even though I did "this", I'm ok because that verse isn't meant for me anyway!

Exactly. When I gave up a while back trying to explain certain things away that's when I came to my senses about what Scripture plainly says about this issue.

 

[Jake]

Exactly. When I gave up a while back trying to explain certain things away that's when I came to my senses about what Scripture plainly says about this issue.

I have found that debating people who do not believe all that is written in the Bible is for all believers, for all time; AND believe the word is not the written Word of God, is a waste of time. Those and calvinists - no way! 2

 

[Jake]

LOL. That is about spot on what I have said for a long time about this. Except I didn't use a yo-yo as my analogy, I would always say "I don't subscribe to jack-in-the-box theology". Christ and the Holy Spirit do not leave us each time we sin, and then come back when we repent.

Nonetheless, I also have been impressed with the seriousness of Hebrews 6:4-6 and other similar Scriptural warnings for believers not to fall away, as I believe StoveBolts was pointing out.

lol, I've never heard of the "jack-in-the box" theology. I get all the time, too, that people think we believe it's one slip up and you're hell bound.

God is merciful and I do believe it would be very difficult to just walk away after knowing the truth, but if it weren't possible, it wouldn't be in there.

 

[savedbygrace57]

stove

I'm actually surprised nobody put this verse out there.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I am surprised too. However, that passage is no problem, those who would do such a thing just prove they were not being kept by the power of God through Faith.

What most people neglect to show after that passage is the immediate following which states :vs 9

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

In other words, the writer was stating, those who do such things as described in vs 4-6, were not saved.

The contrast is made again in Chapter 10 :

38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Vs 38 the writer affirms that the Just or Justified shall live by Faith, its no doubt about it, so they are not of THEM who draw back unto perdition as those in [ Heb 6:6:4-6] but of THEM that believe to the saving of the soul.

Two different groups of them..

The ones who believe unto the saving of the soul are the ones Peter writes about here 1 Pet 1:

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Cp Heb 10:39

 

[stovebolts]

Hi SBG,

I am surprised too. However, that passage is no problem, those who would do such a thing just prove they were not being kept by the power of God through Faith.

What most people neglect to show after that passage is the immediate following which states :vs 9

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

In other words, the writer was stating, those who do such things as described in vs 4-6, were not saved.

It's amazing how we see these passages so vastly different. Let me explain how I understand them since I can also understand you you understand them. I am not asking you to agree with me, but I would ask if you can walk in my shoes for a moment and see what I see.

When I read, "things that accompany salvation", I look up to the verse above where it talks about the land which has received the same water, yet though the land receives the same water, it produces two seperate crops. One crop is pleasing to God while the other crop is burned in the fire.

And what makes the crop pleasing to God? It's the crop which is tilled. To be tilled, is to require one who tills.

Hebrews 6:10 for God is not unrighteous to forget your work and the love which ye showed toward his name, in that ye ministered unto the saints, and still do minister.

So we see that the one who believes in Jesus, and holds firm will have those things which accompany salvation.

But we're not talking about that which accompanies salvation are we? We are talking about who is saved. Earlier, scripture stated that those who are able to fall away were also partakers of the Holy Spirit. To whom is the Holy Spirit given and for what puropse? I suppose I was always under the impression that the Holy Spirit was only given to those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Christ.

Thanks.

 

[Jake]

stove



I am surprised too. However, that passage is no problem, those who would do such a thing just prove they were not being kept by the power of God through Faith.

Which entirely proves my point, people don't believe every word in the Bible is for THEM - it's for someone else. lol
It wouldn't be in there if that were the case, you can not fall away from, if you weren't in, to begin with.
Pay attention to the warnings sbg.

 

[savedbygrace57]

stove:

It's amazing how we see these passages so vastly different.

Yes it is. But now you know why That passage is no problem for me. Noting in it contradicts the fact that God keeps His Saints by His power through Faith. 1 Pet 1:5

 

[n2thelight]

Question,do believer's still sin?The answer is oviously yes.What should one do that sins?That's ovious also,repent.....

Now to say that a believer has eternal security is false,as long as we are in the flesh,we will sin,the key is to repent of that sin.....

Now for those who think they have eternal security,sin without repenting and see how secure you are........

Many read the Word and pay no attention to the if's,God said He would....... IF!



Try the study at the below link

http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/losing-salvation.htm

 

[cyberjosh]

Question,do believer's still sin?The answer is oviously yes.What should one do that sins?That's ovious also,repent.....

Now to say that a believer has eternal security is false,as long as we are in the flesh,we will sin,the key is to repent of that sin.....

Now for those who think they have eternal security,sin without repenting and see how secure you are........

Many read the Word and pay no attention to the if's,God said He would....... IF!



Try the study at the below link

Losing Salvation - Bible Study and Christian Teaching on Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine - Biblical Teachings

What an interesting site. I like all the Scriptures given on the Salvation Plan page. Thanks for sharing.

God Bless,
~Josh

 

[savedbygrace57]

Its an attack upon the Redemptive work of Christ !

Those who deny the Eternal Security of the Believer in Jesus, not only deny the very Power of God that guards them unto that eternal inheritance that is truly theirs 1 Pet 1:4-5

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

They also attack the Perfection of the Redeeming work of Christ, for each He redeemed by His blood.

Scripture says that they have been redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb from a vain conversation, that is, a worthies manner of life of Idolatry. 1 Pet 1:18-19

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

That word from in vs 18 is the prep ek and means:

out of, from, by, away from

The blood of Christ redeems the sinner out of or away from a vain manner of Life.

The word redeemed in vs 18 is the greek word lytroō and means:


to release on receipt of ransom

2) to redeem, liberate by payment of ransom

a) to liberate

b) to cause to be released to one's self by payment of a ransom

Notice " To cause to be released to one's self. Christ by his Blood caused the release of those He died for, unto Himself, He redeemed them unto His self, He caused it. How ? By His blood.

That thought is more explicitly conveyed here Titus 2:14

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Also this Redemption is Eternal as stated in Heb 9:12

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

There is absolutely no end to the redeeming effects of the Blood of Christ for His People He died for.

Now, to those who deny and reject this Truth, you deny and reject the Perfection of the Redemptive work of Christ, which is nothing short of Blasphemy !

 

[n2thelight]

Those who deny the Eternal Security of the Believer in Jesus, not only deny the very Power of God that guards them unto that eternal inheritance that is truly theirs 1 Pet 1:4-5

Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. (Ezek 3:20)

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezek 18:24)

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)

If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. (Ezek 33:13)

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. (Ezek 33:18)


What you speak is a falsehood,it's like saying,once I accept Christ I can do what ever I want.....

 

[savedbygrace57]

n2:

Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. (Ezek 3:20)

Those who deny the Eternal Security of the believer, deny the very Power of God. 1 Pet 1:5


5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


They are kept by the Power of God in Faith !

And too you are pulling scripture from the Old Covenant which is a National Covenant that does not apply here.. These things apply to that better Covenant with better promises.. Heb 8:6

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 

[ivdavid]

What you speak is a falsehood,it's like saying,once I accept Christ I can do what ever I want.....

If that's what you think eternal security means, then you'll have to first concur with those who believe in eternal security as to what they mean by it.

And the objection you've raised is quite an expected objection against the doctrine of grace - not because any flaw in the doctrine of grace warrants it - but because our slavery under sin through the law of works thus far, has made us unable to immediately comprehend the freedom by grace.

Your same objection was addressed from Rom 6:1 - and the solution lies in understanding what the grace of God efficaciously does in us - rather than rejecting the assurance of His sufficiency to save us by His grace.

 

[ivdavid]

Many read the Word and pay no attention to the if's,God said He would....... IF!

Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
This is a causative 'if' clause. This is also known as the Law of works. But we are not under the law but under grace. There are no causative 'ifs' for man to fulfill under grace - because then it would frustrate the grace of God. There are the commandments - and the obedience of them by the grace of God through faith. Grace for grace[John 1:16] - not grace for our works.


Look at the new covenant of grace in Jer 31:31-34 - there are no 'ifs' there. Also see Eze 36:25-28 and Eze 37:1-10 as to how God works by His grace - when God works, He doesn't need any 'ifs' to be fulfilled by man. The only 'ifs' you'd be seeing now are the evidential 'ifs'.

To clarify -
Example of a causative 'if' - "if it rains, then I shall be drenched."
Example of an evidential 'if' - "if I am drenched, then it rains."

 

[Elijah674]

Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
This is a causative 'if' clause. This is also known as the Law of works. But we are not under the law but under grace. There are no causative 'ifs' for man to fulfill under grace - because then it would frustrate the grace of God. There are the commandments - and the obedience of them by the grace of God through faith. Grace for grace[John 1:16] - not grace for our works.


Look at the new covenant of grace in Jer 31:31-34 - there are no 'ifs' there. Also see Eze 36:25-28 and Eze 37:1-10 as to how God works by His grace - when God works, He doesn't need any 'ifs' to be fulfilled by man. The only 'ifs' you'd be seeing now are the evidential 'ifs'.

To clarify -
Example of a causative 'if' - "if it rains, then I shall be drenched."
Example of an evidential 'if' - "if I am drenched, then it rains."

God needs NO IF on His part. But on mans part the CONDITION (IF) is from day one on! (as fact!) Even before Adam sinned!

Let me ask this question, who do you teach lied, God or satan?? There is only ONE CONDITIONAL answer to their printed out verses! Mankind is NOT, NOR EVER HAS BEEN, IMMORTAL, eternal Life is given only on [[CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE!]]

--Elijah