Who is Allah?

[Drummer4Christ]

"Allah" does mean "God" in Arabic, though.

The first pillar of Islam states "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah"

If "Allah" simply means "God", why make the distinction between the two? Why isn't the first pillar "there is no Allah but Allah"?

And does the Bible not say that we should fear God AND love Him? It seems that the main issue is that Muslims have placed a higher importance on the "fearing" aspect and we have placed the "loving" aspect of God in higher regard. That's my opinion.

Agreed. However, the issue is not what Muslims believe but, what Islam teaches.

The religion was based on Christian and Jewish values and thoughts. The Qur'an was meant to simply be the LAST book sent by God to man. The Torah (the Old Testament), The Psalms of David, and even the Gospels are works that are held in very high regard in Islam

Yes but, the Qur'an also claims that Christians & Jews have corrupted the Bible. The Qur'an teaches that the Jews are not God's chosen people but, are reviled by God because they (the Jews) reject Islam. The Qur'an also teaches that God deceived the Jews (especially Jesus' followers) by making it appear that Jesus was crucified when, in fact, God replaced Jesus with Judas Iscariot. The Qur'an teaches that God "neither begets nor is begotten". Why would God send man a final book that blatantly contradicts the Fundamentals of the preceding revelations it claims to complete?

There are no "Christian & Jewish values" in a book that denies God's relationship to Israel as well as the nature of Jesus Christ, let alone the true nature of God:

Allah hates the Jews.
God does not.
Allah is the "greatest of deceivers".
God is not.
Allah is prideful.
God is not.

 

[Sinthesis]

"Allah" does mean "God" in Arabic, though.

And does the Bible not say that we should fear God AND love Him? It seems that the main issue is that Muslims have placed a higher importance on the "fearing" aspect and we have placed the "loving" aspect of God in higher regard. That's my opinion.

Muslims fear God because they do not know Him. They do not know God because they must believe Mohammad is a prophet upon pain of death. In effect they love their own lives more than the truth.

The religion was based on Christian and Jewish values and thoughts. The Qur'an was meant to simply be the LAST book sent by God to man. The Torah (the Old Testament), The Psalms of David, and even the Gospels are works that are held in very high regard in Islam

No; Islam is a self serving parody of Christianity and Judaism.

 

[D4Christ]

Muslims fear God because they do not know Him. They do not know God because they must believe Mohammad is a prophet upon pain of death. In effect they love their own lives more than the truth.

If I may also add...Muslims do not know the Father because they do not believe in His Son because the truth of the Son was not revealed to them.

Luke 10:22
“My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.â€

No; Islam is a self serving parody of Christianity and Judaism.

Couldn't have said it better.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Jam]

nothing in the Bible could possibly be interpreted to mean that God hates sinners (as opposed to sin).

Except that most popular translations render several passages of the Bible as citing God's hatred of people (Esau and Israel, for example).




Anyway, Allah is YHWH. Muslims may well totally misunderstand Him, but this does not mean that they are talking about a completely different person! We know that there is only one God and so, if Muslims are talking about God, they must be talking about the same one.

Imagine that there is an orange on a table between two men. One man claims that the orange is an orange, and that it is a sweet fruit containing seeds with a harder, bitter "skin" around the flesh. The other man claims that the orange is an orange, and that it is a sweet fruit containing seeds with a harder, sour "skin" around the flesh. Do we insist that both men are talking about different oranges? Of course not! We simply conclude that they are both referring to the same orange, and that one (or both!) of them is just wrong about whether or not the peel is sour or bitter.

 

[Adullam]

Allah is the Arabic word for God. The Arabic Christians were using the term before the Muslims .

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Allah is the Arabic word for God. The Arabic Christians were using the term before the Muslims .

Pagan Arabs were using the term "Allah" to refer to their moon god before Muhammad showed up in Mecca with his followers, venerated himself around the black stone (the Ka'ba) destroyed the idols of the lesser god's, then claimed Allah as the only God and declared himself the messenger of God.

YHVH has always meant "I Am"

Allah has always meant a variety of pre-islamic God's worshipped by pagan Arabs.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Except that most popular translations render several passages of the Bible as citing God's hatred of people (Esau and Israel, for example).




Anyway, Allah is YHWH. Muslims may well totally misunderstand Him, but this does not mean that they are talking about a completely different person! We know that there is only one God and so, if Muslims are talking about God, they must be talking about the same one.

Imagine that there is an orange on a table between two men. One man claims that the orange is an orange, and that it is a sweet fruit containing seeds with a harder, bitter "skin" around the flesh. The other man claims that the orange is an orange, and that it is a sweet fruit containing seeds with a harder, sour "skin" around the flesh. Do we insist that both men are talking about different oranges? Of course not! We simply conclude that they are both referring to the same orange, and that one (or both!) of them is just wrong about whether or not the peel is sour or bitter.

Please address the points made in the OP & post 101

 

[Lehigh3]

Except that most popular translations render several passages of the Bible as citing God's hatred of people (Esau and Israel, for example).




Anyway, Allah is YHWH. Muslims may well totally misunderstand Him, but this does not mean that they are talking about a completely different person! We know that there is only one God and so, if Muslims are talking about God, they must be talking about the same one.

Imagine that there is an orange on a table between two men. One man claims that the orange is an orange, and that it is a sweet fruit containing seeds with a harder, bitter "skin" around the flesh. The other man claims that the orange is an orange, and that it is a sweet fruit containing seeds with a harder, sour "skin" around the flesh. Do we insist that both men are talking about different oranges? Of course not! We simply conclude that they are both referring to the same orange, and that one (or both!) of them is just wrong about whether or not the peel is sour or bitter.

I agree. I knew a Muslim family personally. God (Allah) is God to them. The same God we worship.
There's nothing like real life experiences. Experience is a powerful teacher. :eeeekkk

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I agree. I knew a Muslim family personally. God (Allah) is God to them. The same God we worship.
There's nothing like real life experiences. Experience is a powerful teacher. :eeeekkk

Did they worship Jesus Christ as God?

 

[Jam]

Please address the points made in the OP & post 101

Please select a point in post #101 or the OP that I did not address in my post, and then I will reply more specifically if you so desire. At the moment, I consider my own post to have already covered both of those posts.

EDIT: I decided to reply anyway haha; see below :3

 

[Jam]

The first pillar of Islam states "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah"

If "Allah" simply means "God", why make the distinction between the two? Why isn't the first pillar "there is no Allah but Allah"?

I don't see the issue here. Maybe they make the distinction because there is a distinction: it's like making a distinction between "a god" and "God"... All they are saying is that there is one god, and that He is Allah (a name that they use for Him, which literally translated means God). If I were to say "there is no god but God," you would know exactly what I meant... Further, how does this imply that we do not worship the same God?

FYI: Muslims often say "there is no god but God" instead of "there is no God but Allah". So, in answer to your second question- sometimes the first pillar is that.

Yes but, the Qur'an also claims that Christians & Jews have corrupted the Bible. The Qur'an teaches that the Jews are not God's chosen people but, are reviled by God because they (the Jews) reject Islam. The Qur'an also teaches that God deceived the Jews (especially Jesus' followers) by making it appear that Jesus was crucified when, in fact, God replaced Jesus with Judas Iscariot. The Qur'an teaches that God "neither begets nor is begotten". Why would God send man a final book that blatantly contradicts the Fundamentals of the preceding revelations it claims to complete?

There are no "Christian & Jewish values" in a book that denies God's relationship to Israel as well as the nature of Jesus Christ, let alone the true nature of God

I don't know who you were replying to here, but I'm just going to refer you back to my own post:

Anyway, Allah is YHWH. Muslims may well totally misunderstand Him, but this does not mean that they are talking about a completely different person! We know that there is only one God and so, if Muslims are talking about God, they must be talking about the same one.

Imagine that there is an orange on a table between two men. One man claims that the orange is an orange, and that it is a sweet fruit containing seeds with a harder, bitter "skin" around the flesh. The other man claims that the orange is an orange, and that it is a sweet fruit containing seeds with a harder, sour "skin" around the flesh. Do we insist that both men are talking about different oranges? Of course not! We simply conclude that they are both referring to the same orange, and that one (or both!) of them is just wrong about whether or not the peel is sour or bitter.

Disagreeing about the characterisitics of something certainly does not mean believing in a different thing.

Allah hates the Jews.
God does not.

A lot of muslims would disagree quite strongly with this. Could you find me any relevant sura verses to support this? The idea that the People of the Book are expected to be respected is present throughout the whole Qu'ran.

Allah is the "greatest of deceivers".
God is not.

I'd be careful if you're suggesting that God does not deceive in any way at all:
-1 King 22:23
-2 Chronicles 18:22
-2 Thessalonians 2:11

... or are you just saying that He isn't the "greatest" of deceivers?



I have not replied to your OP here for the same reasons I have not replied to every statement from post #101: my original post already explained why they do not support the idea that Allah and YHWH are different beings.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

@ Light

Jehovahs Witness' claim Jesus is not God but, Michael the Archangel.

Mormon's claim Jesus is not God but, the brother of Satan.

Are they describing the same Jesus as the rest of Christendom?

Is "Heavenly Father" & "Jehovah" the same as YHVH?

 

[Jam]

@ Light

Jehovahs Witness' claim Jesus is not God but, Michael the Archangel.

Mormon's claim Jesus is not God but, the brother of Satan.

Are they describing the same Jesus as the rest of Christendom?

Is "Heavenly Father" & "Jehovah" the same as YHVH?

They are talking about the same "person", yes; they just believe different things about Him... I do think whether or not we consider YHWH and Allah to be the same being is based on opinion, though: at some point, a distinct lack of similarities between two descriptions of a being probably would leave most of us believing that the descriptions were referring to different beings. That point, I believe, is subjective to the individual - the differences between Muslims' and Christians' descriptions of God do not yet outweigh the similarities, for me. Essentially what we are arguing here is decription and semantics, I think.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

They are talking about the same "person", yes; they just believe different things about Him... I do think whether or not we consider YHWH and Allah to be the same being is based on opinion, though: at some point, a distinct lack of similarities between two descriptions of a being probably would leave most of us believing that the descriptions were referring to different beings. That point, I believe, is subjective to the individual - the differences between Muslims' and Christians' descriptions of God do not yet outweigh the similarities, for me. Essentially what we are arguing here is decription and semantics, I think.

So then, we worship the same God as Mormons & JW?

 

[Jam]

So then, we worship the same God as Mormons & JW?

Yes.
We do not agree on His ah...characteristics, though.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Yes.
We do not agree on His ah...characteristics, though.

Do we worship the same God as the Westboro Baptist church?

 

[Jam]

Do we worship the same God as the Westboro Baptist church?

Yes.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Yes.

Is there any group who does not worship the same God as us?

Edit:

Let's say I were to claim that an Angel revealed to me messages from God that said:

1. God is not triune
2. Jesus is not God but, a created being
3. Jesus did not die on the cross nor rose from the dead
4. God hates blacks, homosexuals, and Jews
5. Only 144,000 people will get into heaven
6. Those 144,000 people get their own planet with 72 mansions with 72 rooms and, 72 virgins in each room
7. Kill sinners in the name of God, especially those who reject the truths of my revelations
8. I am to start a church based on these revelations because I am the last Prophet.

The Angel then instructs me to write down these revelations so that they may become Holy Scripture for the new religious movement God wants me to start.

During the course of my ministry, I continue to write down subsequent revelations, regardless of whether they contradict earlier revelations and/or the Bible.

Do I (and my followers) worship the same God as Christianity?

 

[Jam]

Is there any group who does not worship the same God as us?

Edit:

Let's say I were to claim that an Angel revealed to me messages from God that said:

1. God is not triune
2. Jesus is not God but, a created being
3. Jesus did not die on the cross nor rose from the dead
4. God hates blacks, homosexuals, and Jews
5. Only 144,000 people will get into heaven
6. Those 144,000 people get their own planet with 72 mansions with 72 rooms and, 72 virgins in each room
7. Kill sinners in the name of God, especially those who reject the truths of my revelations
8. I am to start a church based on these revelations because I am the last Prophet.

The Angel then instructs me to write down these revelations so that they may become Holy Scripture for the new religious movement God wants me to start.

During the course of my ministry, I continue to write down subsequent revelations, regardless of whether they contradict earlier revelations and/or the Bible.

Do I (and my followers) worship the same God as Christianity?

I see where you're coming from and, like I said, I think our disagreement is over a subjective principle regarding similarity... you are quoting different religions and slowly providing those with more and more differences to Christianity. Also as I said earlier, there is a line at which we should stop regarding similar descriptions as referring to the same being. Mormonism is very close to (if not upon) that line for me, I suppose... For you, it would appear that this line is much stricter. I have to wonder, though, whether or not you apply the principle this strictly to all things in your life.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I see where you're coming from and, like I said, I think our disagreement is over a subjective principle regarding similarity... you are quoting different religions and slowly providing those with more and more differences to Christianity. Also as I said earlier, there is a line at which we should stop regarding similar descriptions as referring to the same being. Mormonism is very close to (if not upon) that line for me, I suppose... For you, it would appear that this line is much stricter. I have to wonder, though, whether or not you apply the principle this strictly to all things in your life.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the light", "no one can come to the Father, unless through Me". He also talked about the wide path/narrow door & that many false prophets would come to Him claiming to have done good things in His name but, that He would turn away from them, saying "I never knew thee".

Clearly, there is an objective standard. Not a "subjective" line.

As noted in the OP:
2 John states that he who denies the Father & the Son, that he who denies that Jesus is the Christ, is a liar & an Antichrist.

How do you reconcile three religious movements (though monotheistic) that deny Jesus' role as Christ, and one of the three denying God as both Father AND Son?