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Who is Allah?

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BTW Jason, Elohiem is not exclusively a Jewish or Hebrew word. Or rather, maybe I should say that Elohiem and El are both found in some of the oldest writings that we have, which pre-date the Bible which of course come from Chaldea, and we all know that Abram was called out of Chaldea which was ripe with Pantheon.
 
BTW Jason, Elohiem is not exclusively a Jewish or Hebrew word. Or rather, maybe I should say that Elohiem and El are both found in some of the oldest writings that we have, which pre-date the Bible which of course come from Chaldea, and we all know that Abram was called out of Chaldea which was ripe with Pantheon.

For the sake of argument (and to get back on topic), let's assume that God's name YHVH, and the attribute of mercy, were not known until Moses.

According to the Qur'an, two of the attributes of Allah (and his 99 names) are pride & deception.

Please explain how Ishmael who, according to Islam was the child of promise instead of Isaac, "misinterpreted" God's attribute of justice to mean pride & deception?

The "misinterpretation" cannot be a result of the expulsion from Abrahams household. As you pointed out, God promised a great nation would come out of Ishmael. Are you implying that Hagar & Ishmael "misinterpreted" this attribute of God as well?

Even if Islam (i.e. The Qur'an & Hadith's) is merely a "misinterpretation" of God's true nature, that still makes Islam a false religion & Allah a false god. If Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life" and "no one can come to the Father, unless through me" than Allah cannot be The Almighty God because the Qur'an states that Allah "neither begets nor is begotten" and that Allah deceived the Jews into believing that Jesus was crucified, when in fact Allah replaced Jesus on the cross with JUDAS in His place!

I ask you, StoveBolts, who is the liar? He who denies that Jesus is the Christ and, who denies the Father & the Son.

Ishmael (who Muhammad claims as the child of promise & progenitor of Meccan Arabs who gave up monotheism for paganism until Muhammad showed up to remind them about Allah) was not simply "misguided" about the nature of God. He was either deceived or intentionally deceptive. Attributes that correspond with Allah: a prideful liar.
 
Drummer for Christ,

D F C said:
For the sake of argument (and to get back on topic), let's assume that God's name YHVH, and the attribute of mercy, were not known until Moses.
The name YHVH is more than simply denoting mercy... it's way bigger than that.

D F C said:
Please explain how Ishmael who, according to Islam was the child of promise instead of Isaac, "misinterpreted" God's attribute of justice to mean pride & deception?

You are mixing two items of thought. First, the Bible affirms the promise to Ishmael.
13 I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”
17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

Secondly, when you interpret Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of El Shaddai, but by my name YHVH was I not known to them. correctly, this may become clear to you.

As I've stated elsewhere, it's about perspective.

D F C said:
Even if Islam (i.e. The Qur'an & Hadith's) is merely a "misinterpretation" of God's true nature, that still makes Islam a false religion & Allah a false god.

I wouldn't say full nature, I would say perspective... And no, it doesn't make Allah a false god, unless you disbelieve what the angel of the LORD had to say.

11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
“You are now pregnant
and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
for the LORD has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward[b] all his brothers.”



But I regress. If Allah and God are not the same monotheistic deity, then where is this great nation that God promised Ishmael that is living in hostility toward all his brothers? Last time I checked the news, Islam and the Jew's weren't all kissy faced and kodak moments are few and far between. And what exactly pray tell happened on 911 again? That's right, just a friendly hello. Not.

If Allah and God are not the same deity, I would really like you, or anyone else to show me where this great nation is that God promised both Abraham and Hagar.

Grace and Peace.
 
@ StoveBolts

If you wish start a thread concerning Ishmael & the nation promised to him, please do so.

The Qur'an consists of revelations made by Muhammad from God 600 years after the death & resurrection of Jesus. These revelations state that God is prideful, that God is a deceiver, that God "neither begets nor is begotten", that God hates the Jews.

Are you telling me that this is the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; let alone followers of Jesus Christ?
 
@ StoveBolts

If you wish start a thread concerning Ishmael & the nation promised to him, please do so.

The Qur'an consists of revelations made by Muhammad from God 600 years after the death & resurrection of Jesus. These revelations state that God is prideful, that God is a deceiver, that God "neither begets nor is begotten", that God hates the Jews.

Are you telling me that this is the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; let alone followers of Jesus Christ?

The Qur'an consists of revelations made by Muhammad from God ("from God"? No, it's misinformation about God from a deceptive source.) 600 years after the death & resurrection of Jesus. These revelations state that God is prideful, that God is a deceiver, that God "neither begets nor is begotten", that God hates the Jews.
 
D4C,

There is only one God, and the three major religions that affirm this are Jews, Muslims and Christians and we all trace back to Abraham.
Jews see God differently than Muslims and Christians.
Muslims see God differently than Jews or Christians.
Christians see God differently than Muslims and Jews.

Yadda Yadda... And many will claim that the god the Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons.. and I'm sure a few others worship a "different" god as well. Just like Christianity was "late" on the scene in regard to history, so was Islam. It does not mean that it derived it's source from elsewhere.

Oddly, the Jews and Muslims agree that the Christian's view (trinity) is heretical. And we won't even go into praying to statues (idols).

Nice post Synth.
 
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The Qur'an consists of revelations made by Muhammad from God ("from God"? No, it's misinformation about God from a deceptive source.) 600 years after the death & resurrection of Jesus. These revelations state that God is prideful, that God is a deceiver, that God "neither begets nor is begotten", that God hates the Jews.

I totally agree but, for discussion purposes, I wrote "from God" to make the distinction that Islam was not simply handed down orally to Muhammad from the descendants of Ishmael.

Don't worry, I do not believe that Muhammad's "revelations" were from YHVH.
 
@ StoveBolts

Please answer "yes" or "no":

Is God prideful?
Is God a deceiver?
Is God not the Father?
Does God hate Jews?

How I view or express my view of God, does not change who God is. Just like how you may view me, may not be the same as others view me.

When the walls of Jericho came down, and the Israelites slaughtered every man, woman and child. Yes, I said woman and children. Imagine for a moment the very real event of your innocent child being hacked into pieces as they tried to hide from the enemies sword in front of you.. Which of course belonged to the followers of YHVH. Do you believe the people of Jericho would have said that "God is Love"? I dunno, maybe they said, "God loves you" just before they killed them?

Your questions in regard to this topic are a mute point.
 
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D4C,

Do you believe that we serve the same God as the Jews?

Why?

Yes.

Jesus was a Torah observant Jew. The early church was almost exclusively Jewish. In fact, the biggest controversy that Peter & Paul (who were also Jewish) faced was how to assimilate Gentiles into The Way. The only Scripture used for studying, rebuking, and fellowship by the early church was the Old Testament.

The Jews believe Isaac was the son of promise. Unlike Muslims, who claim Ishmael as the rightful heir.
The Jews call God 'abba' (Father). Unlike Muslims, who do not claim "father" as one of Allah's 99 names.
The Jews believe God is/has a spirit.
Unlike Muslims, who claim that the only spirits are beings known as "Jinn" AKA demons.
The Jews believe in a Messiah whi will redeem Israel. Unlike Muslims, who claim God hates Israel.

Granted, other than Messianic Jews, todays Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. However, I would submit that the majority of ethnic Jews are not religious in the first place but, agnostic secular humanists. Jesus Himself said that some of them have Satan as their father.
 
How I view or express my view of God, does not change who God is. Just like how you may view me, may not be the same as others view me.

When the walls of Jericho came down, and the Israelites slaughtered every man, woman and child. Yes, I said woman and children. Imagine for a moment the very real event of your innocent child being hacked into pieces as they tried to hide from the enemies sword in front of you.. Which of course belonged to the followers of YHVH. Do you believe the people of Jericho would have said that "God is Love"? I dunno, maybe they said, "God loves you" just before they killed them?

Your questions in regard to this topic are a mute point.

Paul addressed this in Romans 9:
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory



I've answered your question, please answer mine.
 
Paul addressed this in Romans 9:
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory



I've answered your question, please answer mine.

Do me a favor would ya and be just a little considerate with Scripture. Take out the HTML garbage from your post before you hit submit would ya?

Aside from that, we're probably not going to agree on the interpretation of that passage. Pharaoh hardened his own heart well before God hardened his heart. Pharaoh struck first blow and then refused to repent. Justice was served.

Anyway, I don't see this as being productive, and it's really starting to stray. You're not going to change my view, and it's apparent that I'm not going to change your's. However, at least I understand your view. I'm not sure you've ever grasped mine as I've yet to see your clear and concise exegesis on Exodus 6:3. Instead, I see you working around that verse.

And just to be clear, your issue is how God is perceived in Islam, not how God is. How God is perceived is not within my control, even when God is perceived unjustly.

Have a good weekend, and I honestly wish you well.
 
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@ StoveBolts


Sorry about the HTML mess (stupid smart phone).

I understand your point about YHVH not being revealed until Moses and about how we, as humans, view God. However, does it not raise some red flags when any particular religious movement, manuscript, and/or individual ascribes attributes to God that are a distortion, a contradiction, if not out right antithetical to the true nature of who God is as revealed at any point in the Bible?

When the Westboro Baptist's hold up signs that say "God Hates Fags" are they simply misguided worshipers of the true God? Certainly not! Because nothing in the Bible could possibly be interpreted to mean that God hates sinners (as opposed to sin). Jesus Himself said that He did not come for the righteous, but for the unsaved.

Therefore we know that the Westboro's are not simply misguided but, flat out wrong.
 
@ StoveBolts


Sorry about the HTML mess (stupid smart phone).

I understand your point about YHVH not being revealed until Moses and about how we, as humans, view God. However, does it not raise some red flags when any particular religious movement, manuscript, and/or individual ascribes attributes to God that are a distortion, a contradiction, if not out right antithetical to the true nature of who God is as revealed at any point in the Bible?

When the Westboro Baptist's hold up signs that say "God Hates Fags" are they simply misguided worshipers of the true God? Certainly not! Because nothing in the Bible could possibly be interpreted to mean that God hates sinners (as opposed to sin). Jesus Himself said that He did not come for the righteous, but for the unsaved.

Therefore we know that the Westboro's are not simply misguided but, flat out wrong.

Ohh, it's your smart phone. Don't you hate that!

I am glad that you used Westboro's as an example (Kinda, even though I think they are just a bunch of lawers hiding behind the guise of christianity). But lets not assume that and instead, give them the benifit of the doubt. While Westboro certainly holds a twisted and distorted view of God's character, they still claim to be worshippers of God, even if their idea of worship looks radically different than ours. I can boldly point out their errors and I can boldly state I disagree with their views, but they still claim the same Jesus and the same Abraham... distorted as it is. God will be their judge.

When both Jews and Muslims/Islamist look at us, they view us much in the same manner that we look at Westboro, especially when we start talking trinity, body and blood of Christ, praying to idols etc. Certainly, they have a long list against us as well. But within context, I'll quote Paul. "All have sinned and fallen short". We all fail to live up to the expectations of God, yes, even Christians, which is why he sent his Son.

If you look down history looking from far above, it goes Abraham, Isaac, Israel, northern and southern kingdom divided, United, Christianity, East and West, Reformation, and a thousand splinter groups from there.

Again, from above, Abram, Ishmael, Mohammad. And all the splinter groups from there.

Do I disagree with Islam's view of God. Why yes I do. But I do not believe, because what is written in our scriptures that they serve a "different God". Simply because there is only one God. And although Muslims have 99 names for God, I know of many, many names that God goes by. El Shaddai being one of those many names of God.

As far as Exodus 6:3, here is what Rashi wrote. Ramban did a more thorough job, but I do not have that in front of me, and it is over a page.

but [with] My name YHWH, I did not become known to them: It is not written here לֹא הוֹדַעְךְתִּי, “but My Name YHWH I did not make known to them,†but לֹא נוֹדַעְךְתִּי, “I did not become known.†[I.e.,] I was not recognized by them with My attribute of keeping faith, by dint of which My name is called YHWH, [which means that I am] faithful to verify My words, for I made promises to them, but I did not fulfill [them while they were alive].
 
@ StoveBolts


Well stated. I should clarify that my issue is with Islam, not necessarily Muslims. I have an issue with how Islam portrays God and how radically it differs from other Abrahamic faiths.

As you stated earlier, neither one of us is going to convince the other. Maybe instead of arguing about Allah & YHVH we should seek opportunities to preach the good news of Christ to our Jewish & Muslim brethren :)

Grace & Peace to you as well Brother StoveBolts
 
@ StoveBolts


Well stated. I should clarify that my issue is with Islam, not necessarily Muslims. I have an issue with how Islam portrays God and how radically it differs from other Abrahamic faiths.

As you stated earlier, neither one of us is going to convince the other. Maybe instead of arguing about Allah & YHVH we should seek opportunities to preach the good news of Christ to our Jewish & Muslim brethren :)

Grace & Peace to you as well Brother StoveBolts

And when we look at the things that are truly important, may God guide our thoughts and words.

Grace and Peace to you as well my Brother.
 
Islam has 6 main prophets, I believe, and those are:

Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammed. 5 of those are revered figures in the Bible. Muslims believe that Jesus was the most holy of the prophets, that he was able to produce miracles, and that he was born of a virgin. They believe he was the holiest of men and the only reason they do not believe he is the Son of God is that they view that as God having sexual relations with a human, which would be insulting to them and to God. Of course, that's not what we mean by it at all.
 
Islam has 6 main prophets, I believe, and those are:

Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammed. 5 of those are revered figures in the Bible. Muslims believe that Jesus was the most holy of the prophets, that he was able to produce miracles, and that he was born of a virgin. They believe he was the holiest of men and the only reason they do not believe he is the Son of God is that they view that as God having sexual relations with a human, which would be insulting to them and to God. Of course, that's not what we mean by it at all.

Exactly. However, according to the Qur'an, those 5 "prophets" worshiped Allah not Elohim/El Shaddai/YHVH.

Islam may claim that "Allah" is merely the Arabic word meaning "God" but, when you examine the attributes & actions associated with Allah, there is no way that the God of the Qur'an is the same God of the Bible.
 
Exactly. However, according to the Qur'an, those 5 "prophets" worshiped Allah not Elohim/El Shaddai/YHVH.

Islam may claim that "Allah" is merely the Arabic word meaning "God" but, when you examine the attributes & actions associated with Allah, there is no way that the God of the Qur'an is the same God of the Bible.

"Allah" does mean "God" in Arabic, though. :yes

And does the Bible not say that we should fear God AND love Him? It seems that the main issue is that Muslims have placed a higher importance on the "fearing" aspect and we have placed the "loving" aspect of God in higher regard. That's my opinion.

The religion was based on Christian and Jewish values and thoughts. The Qur'an was meant to simply be the LAST book sent by God to man. The Torah (the Old Testament), The Psalms of David, and even the Gospels are works that are held in very high regard in Islam
 

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