The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?

[Jethro Bodine]

It seems it's what a person 'hears' when they hear 'law', or 'law of Moses' that determines their understanding, right or wrong, of it's place in New Covenant life.

But either way, we should be thinking 'fulfilled' when we hear 'law of Moses'. And depending on what aspect of the law you're thinking of, that can mean it 'passed away', or continues to be literally fulfilled by God's people.

'Passed away' does not mean abolished (Christ PLAINLY said he did not come to abolish the law). 'Passed away' means no longer having to literally fulfill some aspect of the law of Moses, like, for example, The Day of Atonement which the author of Hebrews says Christ's work fulfilled one time, for all time, for all people (who believe), so that there is no longer any outstanding literal duty or obligation in regard to the fulfillment of that commanded observance.

And then there is the moral components of the law of Moses. They also are fulfilled by our faith in Christ, but are fulfilled in the same literal way as was required of the people of God during the time of the first covenant. The literal obligation to 'love your neighbor as yourself' and all the different ways the law of Moses spells out how you do that (and then some) continue as obligations of the New Covenant saint. So, like the ceremonial observances, the moral requirements are also fulfilled by our faith in Christ--just literally.

Every time you hear 'law', or 'law of Moses', think fulfilled. Not abolished, but fulfilled. Some are fulfilled literally by us through our faith, some are not fulfilled literally by us, but still fulfilled through our faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Both are teaching error!
--Elijah

I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt that you know that no man is justified (MADE righteous before God) by observance of the law. Is that what you believe? Or do you believe that, for example, keeping Sabbath earns a person a declaration of right standing before God?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Both are teaching error!
--Elijah

Thank you brother, for another well spoken and timely word.

Well, you gotta give him credit for being short and to the point, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Royal Law began long before the Law of Moses.

So did the law of sacrifice.

 

[JLB]

Elijah,

The church is full of people who say they love God, and because they do, they go to church, they get involved in church things, etc. They have a form of godliness, as Paul says, but little or nothing beyond that--no power in the transformation of character.

While they're patting themselves on the back for making the tremendous sacrifice of doing their spiritual duty on Sunday morning, they're cussing the guy out under their breath who's beating them to the parking space they wanted, or getting in the way of their speedy exit.

Jeremiah spoke of these kinds of people who supposedly love and worship God:

"4 Do not trust in deceptive words, saying, ‘This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.’ 5 For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, 7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever.

8 “Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. 9 Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, 10 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’—that you may do all these abominations?" (Jeremaih 7:4-10 NASB)

You see, the truth is you can't say you love God until you love your neighbor. Until then, John says a person who says they love God but doesn't love their neighbor is just a liar. Basically making 'love for others' the measuring rod of if you love God or not. John never pulled any punches, and neither should we.

Well said.

As you know, I am a big fan of this message.

I would like to comment on one thing -

If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20

It is because we obey the command of God to Love our brother, that we show our Love for God.

It is because we first love God, that we obey His command to love our brothers.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Elijah,

The church is full of people who say they love God, and because they do, they go to church, they get involved in church things, etc. They have a form of godliness, as Paul says, but little or nothing beyond that--no power in the transformation of character.

While they're patting themselves on the back for making the tremendous sacrifice of doing their spiritual duty on Sunday morning, they're cussing the guy out under their breath who's beating them to the parking space they wanted, or getting in the way of their speedy exit.

Jeremiah spoke of these kinds of people who supposedly love and worship God:

"4 Do not trust in deceptive words, saying, ‘This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.’ 5 For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, 7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever.

8 “Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. 9 Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, 10 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered!’—that you may do all these abominations?" (Jeremaih 7:4-10 NASB)

You see, the truth is you can't say you love God until you love your neighbor. Until then, John says a person who says they love God but doesn't love their neighbor is just a liar. Basically making 'love for others' the measuring rod of if you love God or not. John never pulled any punches, and neither should we.

Well said.

As you know, I am a big fan of this message.

I would like to comment on one thing -

If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20

It is because we obey the command of God to Love our brother, that we show our Love for God.

It is because we first love God, that we obey His command to love our brothers.


JLB

This message set the course of my Christian Walk. I was one of those souls "tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching" (Ephesians 4:14 NIV), searching, longing, looking for that next sermon, or worship service that would finally tear down the block between me and God and usher me into the life I so longed to have in Christ.

Now I'm no longer tossed about. My course is charted, I know where I'm going. And I can recognize everything that tries to steer me off course. It's all about character, not 'religious' activities, and the latest spiritual formula that will bring me into the presence of God.

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

It's the only thing that counts. Everybody...don't be deceived by the externals!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Want to 'see' God and put an end to the relentless search for the manifest joy and presence of God?

"21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”" (John 14:21 NIV)

"10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 17 This is my command: Love each other." (John 15:10-11,17 NIV)

Want to experience God and not just know about him? Then love other people. Get in your Bible and learn when and how to do that. It's a life long journey of learning on the less traveled, narrow road that Jesus talked about. The road leading to life. The road Jesus said few find.

It's all about character, folks. Don't be deceived. Make sure you're one of the few that finds and walks on the narrow road.

Here's a good place to start:

"46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?" (Matthew 5:46-47 NIV)

Start saying 'hi' to the person you make a point of avoiding.

Talk about moving mountains...try it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Husbands and wives...are you listening?

 

[JLB]

Husbands and wives...are you listening?

Yes!

 

[JLB]

Here's a good place to start:

"46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?" (Matthew 5:46-47 NIV)

Start saying 'hi' to the person you make a point of avoiding.

Talk about moving mountains...try it.

I am terrible at greeting people, even the ones I love.

I will change.

Thanks for the word.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' = Law of Moses

JLB, I'm still waiting for you to produce chapter and verse where it states to hate your enemy, or at the least, do you disagree or agree with my comments on the school of Shamia teachings?

Then your in your own little world Brother! The Law of Moses is the first five books of the Bible.

I think you find yourself in need of some clarification in your "theology".


17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

The law was added 430 years after the law?

Sorry brother, you are the one in your own little world.

18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.


The Law was added to the Law?

Sorry Brother, I just don't agree with you.


The Torah is the first five books.

The Torah was written by Moses.

The Law of Moses that was given to the children of Israel, for the children of Israel, in the Land of Israel, until the Seed should come.


JLB

JLB,
At this point, it's not really about theology as we are not having a theological discussion. It's about exegesis. Poor exegesis produces poor theology and we are talking about exegesis.

From that perspective, thank you for the correction and I shall try to do better in thinking out my words before I type them.

Yes, the first five books of the Bible are considered Torah.
The Laws of Moses are found in the latter four.
This leaves us with Genesis which I erroneously called the Law of Moses.

This is what happens when I type faster than I think. If I were to take my time, this is what I should have said.

The first five books of the Bible are considered the Torah and are all within Mosaic authority. That is to say that Moses penned all five books and all come under the authority of Moses through a lens of Mosaic law. That is to simply say that Genesis was written and viewed through the Law of Moses. In other words, nobody had to ask why Cain and Able were offering sacrifice, let alone how they offered or why. Likewise, nobody had to ask why Cain's wasn't acceptable. It is also said that Abraham had the laws that were later written by Moses to which Israel went into covenant with God.

As far as the Law, according to the Jews, all of humanity post flood are under the Noahide laws to which there are only eight. The Jews are under the 613 laws of Moses not because God forced them, but because they all agreed at Mt. Sinai to be under that yoke. The Noahide laws are not the Laws of Moses, but they are universal laws to which all humanity will be judged which came into Mosiac authority. It was this thought that I erroneously stated, "The Law of Moses is the first five books of the Bible."

Thank you for catching that and allowing me clarification.

 

[JLB]

JLB, I'm still waiting for you to produce chapter and verse where it states to hate your enemy,

1 "When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girga++++es and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, 2 and when the Lord your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them. Deuteronomy 7:1-2

This is a direct command from the Lord from the Law of Moses. This any many more Commands like this from the Lord is where the element of in the law to hate your enemies comes from.

Is the book of Deuteronomy considered a part of Moses Law?


The king of Arad, the Canaanite, who dwelt in the South, heard that Israel was coming on the road to Atharim, then he fought against Israel and took some of them prisoners. 2 So Israel made a vow to the Lord, and said, "If You will indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities." 3 And the Lord listened to the voice of Israel and delivered up the Canaanites, and they utterly destroyed them and their cities. So the name of that place was called Hormah. Numbers 21:1-3

Did they utterly destroy them because they loved their enemies?

Is the book of Numbers considered the Law of Moses?

Jesus in Matthew 5 is not teaching the Law of Moses, but rather He is teaching the Law of Christ.

Teaching people that Christianity is the same as the law of Moses means someone has "bewitched" you.

as it is written -

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Not being saved, but adding the Law to the Gospel so that a believer could be a better Chrstian, "be made perfect" which means be made complete.

The Law of Moses does not complete us or makes us perfect.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The context of Galatians is 'justification'--the perfection of justification. No righteous work makes a person perfectly just before God. That's what he's addressing in Galatians, not law keeping itself.

It would be impossible for Paul to argue against the law keeping he himself does except when law keeping is for the purpose of justification. That law keeping he would argue against--and does. But not any and all law keeping. That would make him a really big hypocrite.

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION]

You have not shown any law that states you must hate your enemy. Furthermore, I havn't found any commentary from Ramban or Rashi that uses that verse to teach hatred toward ones enemies. What you are seeing is God's purpose as told to Abraham: Genesis 15:16 NIV 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.” Surely, God isn't teaching his children to hate one's enemies... and to the point where they kill all the livestock as well.

By the way, I don't think the purpose of killing was ever to teach one to hate his enemy. We see this very clearly when Pharaoh and his men were drowned in the Red Sea. Miriam sings a song in praise for their death, and God takes them to a place of bitter water. Victory is bitter sweet in that way as will the day when the final trump is blast.

You see, God does not rejoice in the destruction of evil. But he is a just God none the less. Like Pharaoh, some will be judged on earth while others are judged in the life to come. Regardless, we are all judged.

Ezekiel 33:11 b ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

 

[JLB]

You have not shown any law that states you must hate your enemy.

You don't think this scripture to utterly destroy their enemies is a reference to hate?

1 "When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girga++++es and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, 2 and when the Lord your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them. Deuteronomy 7:1-2

This is a direct command from the Lord from the Law of Moses. This any many more Commands like this from the Lord is where the element of in the law to hate your enemies comes from.


Ok, since you made a comment about your son who looked over your shoulder and made the comment "that man hates Jewish people".

Please show him this scripture from Deuteronomy 7:1-2 and ask him if utterly destroying there enemies meant the Jewish people loved their enemies or hated their enemies.

I will abide by his decision. If he says that the Jewish people who were commanded to utterly destroy their enemies, was an act of love, then I will concede your point.

I humbly await his perspective.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The context of Galatians is 'justification'--the perfection of justification. No righteous work makes a person perfectly just before God. That's what he's addressing in Galatians, not law keeping itself.

It would be impossible for Paul to argue against the law keeping he himself does except when law keeping is for the purpose of justification. That law keeping he would argue against--and does. But not any and all law keeping. That would make him a really big hypocrite.

Did Paul teach that Sabbaths were commanded to be kept by Gentile Christians? Yes or No.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Did Paul teach that Gentile Christians were to obey a strict eating diet from the Law? Yes or No?

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. Romans 14:5-20

All things indeed are pure.

I am all for the Law, if one uses it lawfully.

Abraham walked in God's Law.
JLB

 

[stovebolts]

JLB,

Before I ask you to concede, you will have to find a place of understanding. So far, you don't seem to want to understand and as such, I'm not forcing you to understand. Actually, I can't force you.

What I can say is that I believe scriptures when scriptures say what occurred was because of the sins of those who committed them. God told Abraham that day would come some 400 years after him, and it did. God also told him the why. If we take that as God teaching his children to hate their enemies, then it gives excuse to hate ones neighbor. You see, the passages you provided say nothing of hating ones enemy, yet you interpret it that way.

I on the other hand have shown the passage in Leviticus Jesus was referencing. And how do I know Jesus was referencing it? Because the dead sea scrolls bear this out as does the teachings of Shammai which was one of the leaders in the school of thought of the day. What have you given me? You have given me your opinion on how a passage should be interpreted giving no thought to God's why when he told Abraham of these things. From that perspective, I'll stand where I'm at while on the same token give you some homework. If the passages you quoted are to teach people to hate their enemies, then it should be easy to find the Sages teaching to hate their enemies from these passages. I can guarantee you that you won't find a Sage teaching what your suggesting. And if this is true, why do you insist that the Jews teach hatred of their enemies from this verse when you can't find a Sage to teach this? It's time for a reality check and the proof's in the pudding. If you want to have some creedence to your claim, then you need to produce a teaching from the Sages that teach what your suggesting from those verses.

 

[stovebolts]

And as far is an act of love, will those being thrown into the lake of fire show God's love as well?

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Before I ask you to concede, you will have to find a place of understanding. So far, you don't seem to want to understand and as such, I'm not forcing you to understand. Actually, I can't force you.

What I can say is that I believe scriptures when scriptures say what occurred was because of the sins of those who committed them. God told Abraham that day would come some 400 years after him, and it did. God also told him the why. If we take that as God teaching his children to hate their enemies, then it gives excuse to hate ones neighbor. You see, the passages you provided say nothing of hating ones enemy, yet you interpret it that way.

I on the other hand have shown the passage in Leviticus Jesus was referencing. And how do I know Jesus was referencing it? Because the dead sea scrolls bear this out as does the teachings of Shammai which was one of the leaders in the school of thought of the day. What have you given me? You have given me your opinion on how a passage should be interpreted giving no thought to God's why when he told Abraham of these things. From that perspective, I'll stand where I'm at while on the same token give you some homework. If the passages you quoted are to teach people to hate their enemies, then it should be easy to find the Sages teaching to hate their enemies from these passages. I can guarantee you that you won't find a Sage teaching what your suggesting. And if this is true, why do you insist that the Jews teach hatred of their enemies from this verse when you can't find a Sage to teach this? It's time for a reality check and the proof's in the pudding. If you want to have some creedence to your claim, then you need to produce a teaching from the Sages that teach what your suggesting from those verses.

How is it you can draw a reference from how the Law should be interpreted from a source outside of scripture, but when I use a source from the Law itself to draw a conclusion then I am not "understanding" you.

I am still waiting on the perspective of your son of whether utterly destroying their enemies as commanded by God was an act of Love or Hate.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The context of Galatians is 'justification'--the perfection of justification. No righteous work makes a person perfectly just before God. That's what he's addressing in Galatians, not law keeping itself.

It would be impossible for Paul to argue against the law keeping he himself does except when law keeping is for the purpose of justification. That law keeping he would argue against--and does. But not any and all law keeping. That would make him a really big hypocrite.

Did Paul teach that Sabbaths were commanded to be kept by Gentile Christians? Yes or No.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Did Paul teach that Gentile Christians were to obey a strict eating diet from the Law? Yes or No?

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. Romans 14:5-20

All things indeed are pure.

I am all for the Law, if one uses it lawfully.

Abraham walked in God's Law.
JLB

But aren't you making the case that to keep any of the (ceremonial and illustrative) law is equivalent to turning back to another gospel?

It's important to know that keeping the law amounts to turning back to another gospel only when that is done with the express purpose of trying to justify oneself by that effort. Law keeping in and of itself is not categorically trying to be justified by the law. That's where the church makes it's mistake in regard to this matter.

So it's not about whether or not we have NT commands to keep ceremonial and separation/cleanliness commands (which there are none that I know of). It's about whether or not we do those things in an effort to be justified by that effort.