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Can a Christian be forgiven if he kills in self defence.

Gabriel Ali said:
Ginger said:
Generally self defence (someone breaks in your home about to shoot loved ones) and you hit them over the head to stop them not so much with the intent to kill but to stop them then I don't think there is anything to forgive.

I agree a 100 percent (but only if morals are not absolute ;) ) Nobody should ever protect anyone with the intention to murder, rather; it should be to prevent murder.

Ginger said:
I was thinking though that if I was in a hostage situation I would volunteer to die first

:thumb Amen, Ginger. As Christians, we have nothing to fear from death and i believe everything to gain from emulating Christ's willingness to sacrifice Himself for others.

Ginger said:
Slowly trying to get to know posters and where they are coming from here - guess it takes a lot of time!

You should click on the forum members names and you'll be taken to they're profile page and can view all of their previous posts. I find this very useful when there is a paticular members whose posts and views i enjoy. :)

God bless,
Gabriel

thanks Gabriel that's a really good idea, didn't know you could do that :thumb
 
To bad Joshua, you are misleading the Christians. You have not made any effort to study who this Illuminati cult people are. But for your information I have been studying all these people for months, our senators are telling us these close door secrets. I am not laughing or playing jokes, once you study these people you will see why our economy is going bad, and why they want to chip and kill us. Why are you so surprise even Rockefeller said this, and Price Philip said that when he dies he will like to come back as a virus and kill 80% of the people. You have seen what happen to 9/11 and how our government is rewriting our constitution; and have broken our law by using the surveillance act. You do not know that even when your sell phone is off the government can hear you talk. Right now the law stands as the President of USA can detain you with no court order for as long as he deems it in his power to do so. No Trial even if you are innocent they have done that to the Muslims. Josh you need to be inform and if you do not like what I am saying than do not read my post. But I have gone as far as knowing these people in encyclopedias. Know their agenda it is not a pretty one. You should not talk or mock what you have not study. Soon it will hit you right in the face.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6oa_VwiPvM Congress from OHIO speaks out,
To all you who still Don't believe that New world order Exist


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CLMtXSlL-I Senator speaks out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLVggYm7d9gThis is a police officer speaking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClqUcScwnn8
David Rockefeller speaks about population control
Microchiping the population is not a theory, its a plan!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgcZUIc3oks I hope you are not laughing any more once you see these videos Josh. May our Lord make you wiser than the goats. :study
Here is my proof-- why should I believe all skeptical sheep who are asleep who never pick up a book and watch for the signs of the time. I believe all this hog wash of global warming and that we are over populated is a big fat lie of the special diabolical elite.
 
My comment on this thread would be, where do you think this leaves our Christian military guys?
 
FaithOnly can you elaborate on your question please I do not know were you are headed. Thank you for your replied and may our Lord shower you with His love and kindness. :)
 
Anna,

I can't help but laugh at all the you tube video's you link to. After I research the people in them I find it very difficult to buy what they're selling.

I just don't think we will ever see eye to eye on these issue's. For whatever reason we are both stuck on opposite sides of the fence.

I have no desire to argue so I'll refrain from too many challenging comments and questions.

God Bless.
 
You make me lOL Josh, these people are our representatives in Washington and policeman CIA who are telling us to wake up. YOU NEED TO KNOW THE WORLD SYSTEM BETTER. :)
 
Anna1334 said:
these people are our representatives in Washington and policeman CIA who are telling us to wake up.

What makes them trust worthy or more knowledgeable than anyone else?

It seems you don't trust a politician unless he is saying what you want to hear. That's the trick of most politicians...only let the people see and hear what they want to.
 
I don't have to view the blogs to know what Anna speaks is true.

I come from a life time of a military family, and an uncle who was a secret serviceman and personal bodyguard for President Kennedy and his family, and was there when he was murdered. My uncle was very clear when he came home who murdered him. My family is filled with highway patrol, police, peramedics, firemen, federal marshalls, boundy hunters etc. etc. Yes this country is herding us in the corruption of this country. I'm not going into details, cause I've already voiced my opinion of the election OP and covered this issue. But the conversations around our dinner table with my family from first hand experience of what our government is doing behind the scenes of our illusions of freedom would make your skin crawl, if not throw you into cardiac arrest.

Joshua, don't take this government as being honest, or not allowing certain things to fester to control the populations, or that there's not underground cities being built since the early 50's with coast to coast high tech underground transportation to get to these beyond belief high tech under ground cities just for the secular government/science/medical elite survival. I heard about them in my teens from my family, and that information is just now surfacing by government employees coming out undercover, cause they feel "We the People" have a right to know how our government is plotting to let the majority of the population demise to come to pass if war, or this 2012 polar shift happens. Or if germ warfare hits this country. I have underground government tapes by people coming forward such as (CIA, congressmen, ex-government position holders, ex-military personel) who have had assasination attempts on them to the point they've had to leave their families to keep them safe due to their homes being blow up, and some haven't been so bless to survive. There's a whole range of corruption/cover-ups, and I strongly suggest, do some real in depth studies, and be selective in you study for the truth. I love this country and would fight for it, but this government is another matter.
 
So for 50 plus years the government has been doing all the things you say above? So every leader who has been elected or appointed to an office in the last 50 plus years is in on it? All the arguing and mud slinging between politicians is what....an act...to deceive us?
 
No Joshua, they're built completely underground with very high tech technology that can clear out 5 to 7 miles in one day to build, and five foot of solid steel walls with chambers. For example under area 51 (though there's several throughout our nation) that our government says don't exist, nor do they acknowledge even though you can drive right up to the highly guarded property line. Some are a mile to two miles deep with multible levels, and trans that run from city to city. These cities hold labs/barracks/hospitals/food banks etc. etc. that are fully self sufficent for survival for many years with a small population without ever seeing daylight. These trans can run from coast to coast within two hours. They're not built to save mankind, they've been built to save the elite of mankind, and to control us if marshall law goes into effect with the outbreak of chemical warfare, airborne virus's, or us rebelling against our own government, nuclear war, or the polar shift in 2012 that has been told by our scientist/astronomers that is to come. They've been preparing for this for 60 years. Many who have participated in building this have came forward out of fear for the existence of mankind.

Now if you google it you can probably find an area of reference to this, and be careful with You Tube....they at times can be full of bunk. But find you a good reputable website on the subject. It may take some digging, but it's out there. Now you may be able to find some pics that some have taken and sneaked out from the facilities and went underground for their own protection when they exposed it.

And I might add: every single president in office (past and present) is aware of this....they hold a position for these facilities in case of nuclear war. That's why they've been built underground nationwide so no matter where the president is, he has access to them. They wont be above ground.
 
Thanks Carol for letting truth be heard. Josh all you have said is true I know you like many rather sit on your couch and drink a soda pop watch your games or the tube.Many people rather be blind to the horror of what is happening. Our presidents are not elected they are selected. Where you been Josh wake up even Hollywood is telling you and hundreds of books out there people who know the government like Jim Marrs Rule by Secrecy: The Hidden History That Connects the Trilateral Commission, the Freemasons, and the Great Pyramids I am reading his book right now. Here is a link about Jim Marrshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Marrs How could you be so surprise if all this was predicted we are headed for the New World Order.Did not Father Bush mention it in his address to the UN. Look around you what do you think Hillary and all the Obama appointees will do--they will bring us into a Socialist government. Look up what is the meaning of Democracy. All I am doing is to wake the people up so that they will be ready for Jesus. It is out of our hands because it is to late for the people to rise up in protest there is only few that know about this, so do not fight against me get informed and help me instead. The special elite are rushing in on us before to many will know about this. The more people that know about this the better even if it is to late.The Police have taezed the protesters with electric shock and no one to rescue them from the strong arm of the adversary. some were electrocuted to death by those guns. So were is the freedom of the people you tell me?? :nono
 
I went ahead and posted it for others. And I agree our president is not elected, he's selected.

TOP-SECRET MILITARY
UNDERGROUND FACILITIES

One of the earliest American underground facilities was built at Raven Rock in Pennsylvania. The military refer to it as "Site R." Sounds like "Section D." Raven Rock was picked because it is made of greenstone, a type of granite that is the fourth hardest rock on earth. Construction started in 1950, and engineers had completed a series of tunnels and a three-story building by 1953. Two more three-story buildings were completed by 1963. The complex lies 650 feet beneath the 1,529-foot-high summit of Raven Rock and can be entered through four portals. The mountain has everything needed to survive a catastrophe: cars, some of the best dining in the Army, chemical suits, a fitness center, a medical facility, a barbershop, legal services, a chapel, designated smoking areas and a convenience store. It has six 1,000 kilowatt generators and 35 miles of cable on 180 telephone poles. Remember, this is one of the early underground sites, and probably does not compare with some of the new underground cities that have been constructed in more recent years.
One of the first of nearly 100 Federal Relocation Centers was built in rural Virginia's Mount Weather. It took years to complete, but when complete resembled a city more than an emergency installation. Mount Weather was equipped with such amenities as private apartments and dormitories, streets and sidewalks, cafeterias and hospitals, a water purification system, power plant, and general office buildings. The site includes a small lake fed by fresh water from underground springs. It even has its own mass transit system - small electric cars that run on rechargeable batteries and make regular shuttle runs throughout the city.

As recently as 1992, the papers reported the existence of a Cold War secret, the government had built a $14 million underground bunker in West Virginia and maintained it for more than three decades for Congress to use in the event of a nuclear attack. The hideaway Capitol was built under the fashionable Greenbrier resort in White Sulphur Springs, about 250 miles from Washington. Its location was known only to a relative handful of the nation's highest-ranking officials. From 1958 on, the very existence of this facility was a closely guarded secret. Very few in Congress or the executive branch knew of the program. The rumors that an underground city exists under the Enchantment Resort in Boynton Canyon in Sedona, Arizona may not be so far fetched after all. Eggs cannot be put in one basket. The Greenbrier bunker has living quarters and work space for 800 people as well as separate meeting halls for the House and Senate.

We are always willing to release more about the other side's secrets than our own. We find that the Kremlin and other buildings in Moscow are still linked by underground rail tunnels to an area about six miles outside the city center called Ramenki, site of a vast subterranean bunker designed for the country's leaders and their families. It was described as an underground city about 500 acres in size, built at several levels from 230 feet to 395 feet. This bunker could shelter as many as 120,000 people! That is the size of a moderate American city.

According to the Napa Sentinel, a secret underground installation is under construction near the Oakville Grade in Napa County, California, and is being used by the Government for direct satellite communication, the Continuity of Government (COG) program in case of nuclear attack or other disasters, and secure communication links with the outside world in case of disaster. Mysterious helicopter flights have been seen going into and out of the area. Supposedly, the secret government site is replacing other installations and combining them into one underground center.

Not all underground sites are shelters. The Yucca Mountain Site Characterization Project took a first step in November, 1993 when it started construction on the entrance pad for its Exploratory Studies Facility (ESF). This pad is the launching point for 14 miles of tunnels that will be drilled directly under Yucca Mountain. The tunnels will measure 24-30 feet in diameter for some and 16-18 feet in diameter for others. This project will eventually cover some 70 acres of surface and underground facilities. This DOE project will contain alcoves for experiments located along the tunnels.

Skeptics have expressed doubts about the existence of extensive underground tunneling and cavitation. They always ask, "Where is all the dirt?" This method of asking a question to disprove an allegation is misleading and faulty logic at best. Skeptics favorite question about the alien presence is "Why don't they land on the White House Lawn?" Of course, the rejoinder should be "Keep off the Grass signs prevent them." One of the new methods of tunneling that have been under study is "nuclear tunnel boring." U.S. Patent No. 3,693,731 dated Sept. 26, 1972 describes a method and apparatus for tunneling by melting. It says, "a machine and method for drilling bore holes and tunnels by melting in which a housing is provided for supporting a heat source and a heated end portion and in which the necessary melting heat is delivered to the walls of the end portion at a rate sufficient to melt rock and during operation of which the molten material may be disposed adjacent the boring zone in cracks in the rock and as a vitreous wall lining of the tunnel so formed. The heat source can be electrical or nuclear, but for deep drilling is preferably a nuclear reactor." The melted rock is forced into cracks wherein heat is given up to the crack surfaces and freezes as a glass at some distance from the penetrator. This amazing boring device is capable of drilling at depths totally inaccessible with previous drilling techniques, even, according to the patent claims, down to 30,000 meters.

The nuclear tunnel boring machines were invented by scientists and engineers at Los Alamos. They called their new machine, the "Subterrene." In 1975, a cost comparison was done between the Subterrene and other tunneling methods by A. A. Mathews, Inc. This report reveals that the initial experiments utilizing this technology were done in the early 1960s. This study reveals that the Subterrene performs its job rapidly and economically. The report states that the economy comes from "the formation of a glass lining bonded to the ground and capable of providing initial and final ground support without the delay and cost of separate installations. The use of a nuclear reactor and heat pipes to provide power for kerf penetration within the tunneling machine itself contributes to the overall economy of the system and is considered exclusively in this study. Nuclear power is not, however, a requirement for Subterrene tunneling." In fact, a Los Alamos symposium held in Atlantic City in 1986 proposed the construction of a Subselene for tunnel melting for high-speed lunar subsurface transportation tunnels.

Thomas spoke about a subterranean highway through America just like our own Interstate highway system, except its underground. The underground highway uses trucks, cars, and buses driven by electric motors. You wouldn't want gasoline fumes polluting tunnels. He mentioned another style of transport for freight and passengers that is linked together in a world-wide network called the "Sub-Global System." It has check points at each country entry. There are shuttle tubes that "shoot" the trains at incredible speed using a mag-lev and vacuum method. They travel in excess of the speed of sound. Did Thomas concoct this from a science-fiction scenario or does such a system have a basis in fact, and, if so, how much more of what Thomas has told us exists in reality?

Engineers Robert Salter and Frank P. Davidson of MIT have both discussed and given papers on the Planetran concept for moving people rapidly underground. Salter describes the Planetran as an ultraspeed, electromagnetically propelled and levitated transportation system of the future. Such a system could carry passengers across the United States in less than an hour in a quiet, economical, fuel-conservative, and nonpolluting manner. Planetran would require a tunnel over 2,500 miles in length, perhaps assembled from 100 25-mile long segments.

Skeptics have scoffed at claims that 100-mile long tunnels ran from one military operations area to another. Yet, engineers have planned for tunnels to span the nation. Of course, skeptics are somewhat deficient in imagination when it comes to accomplishments. There were skeptics that never believed we would reach the moon, and certainly not by rocket. Skeptics do not believe in alien visitations. It is even more difficult for them to accept the idea that aliens have inhabited the earth for a long time and like to live underground and out of sight.

Huge structures discovered in close-up photos of lunar features indicate that ancient alien artifacts have graced the surface of our satellite. It is only a small step for aliens to have come to earth and built habitats.

We cannot prove that aliens or alien technology exists in secret underground facilities constructed by the government. We have not been able to prove the existence of Section D. There are an increasing number of abductees who report being taken to underground bases. Some of these abductees have described seeing things that really exist in documented underground facilities. Perhaps ancient underground facilities will eventually reveal the truth. The magic and mystery of these dark places continues.
 
I'm with you Anna, I'm 55 and known about these facilities since the murder of President Kennedy from my uncle, and one of my brother-in laws whose made a career for 35 years in the military, and just recently retired. There's alot of government/military personel worried about their families. They have also built underground steal train cars completed with shackles, approx. 170 shackles per car if Marshall law is put into effect. Who needs to ask why? It's very clear to me.

One of the main reasons why my ex-marine husband has us well stocked in weapons and ammunition. Why do you think they're trying to take our constitutional rights to bear arms from us? They know it would be bad fighting against us in our own country, but don't think for one moment that they haven't considered this too, and are prepared for it via these underground train cars with shackles. Can't see what goes on underground and gives them a great advantage to take care of business before the vast majority see what's happening and reacts to it.

And a thought.....where do you think we got such high tech technology to accomplish such tasks? And I believe in major countries they're doing the same. And will our government be forgiven in killing "We the People" in no defense, cause some seek the protection of those underground cities? Personally I'm waiting on the Lord, or HIM taking me to my true home sooner than the later.
 
pray_persecuted_church.jpg


These kind of things happen on a regular basis, same story with a different twist.

turnorburn

twocents.gif
 
Evil governments and evildoers in general will have their day of judgment:

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Maybe governments should familiarize themselves with Proverbs 1 also. :study

As for killing in self-defense; in the OT, God set up places of refuge for those who killed unknowingly, by accident or in self defense.

Num 35:15 These six cities shall be a refuge, both for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither.

Repeated again in Joshua:

Josh 20:2 Speak to the children of Israel, saying, Appoint out for you cities of refuge, whereof I spake unto you by the hand of Moses:
Josh 20:3 That the slayer that killeth any person unawares and unwittingly may flee thither: and they shall be your refuge from the avenger of blood.
Josh 20:4 And when he that doth flee unto one of those cities shall stand at the entering of the gate of the city, and shall declare his cause in the ears of the elders of that city, they shall take him into the city unto them, and give him a place, that he may dwell among them.

There was law for those who murdered... and shelter for those who killed for other reasons. So I believe there is forgiveness, especially in the latter case(s).

So, it's yes to the first question and no to the second.
 
Thanks Vic for your response it was very revealing to me, Yahweh bless you.
 
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