CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[rogerg]

so we need to find some other verses that state that the HOLY SPIRIT
1. Gives faith and not God Father
2. That the Holy Spirit is giving the gift of faith in Gal 5:22

There is only ONE God: He is the Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, the Son, Christ, Spirit of Christ, all one God (and probably more titles/labels that I can't recall right now)- it is impossible that it is otherwise, but I'm not going into that aspect now.
Anyway, if you read them closely and really think about them, these should completely suffice in answering your objections.

Notice in 2Th 2:13 it is clearly stated - that God from "the beginning chosen" "the beloved of the Lord" - the elect - to salvation. He did so through the sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF OF THE TRUTH. That means the "belief" came only through/by "the Spirit" unto them and was not by the person.
[2Th 2:13 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Notice in v77, that for someone to truly comprehend salvation, their sins must be remitted. Therefore, faith
is preceded by the remission of sin, otherwise, they remain blind to salvation.

[Luk 1:76-77 KJV]
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

[1Pe 1:2-3 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Notice in 13, that God is filling them with joy and peace, by having given to them belief: the "in believing".

[Rom 15:13-14 KJV]
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

The Holy Spirit indwells someone by their spiritual rebirth, but not to everyone
[2Ti 1:14 KJV]
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Those born again are renewed in their spiritual minds by the Holy Spirit
[Eph 4:23 KJV]
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

As natural man, the unsaved have a "carnal mind", and therefore, cannot comprehend things spiritual.
They must first be born again by the Spirit in order to know the things of the Spirit.
Those who do not have the Spirit, are not God's.
So, therefore, we can see it impossible for someone to give themselves true faith, although they may
think they have. For someone to become free from the carnal, God must first intervene with the Spirit -
this does not happen to everyone.

[Rom 8:5, 7-11 KJV]
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. ...
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[Rom 8:14 KJV]
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[2Co 1:21-22 KJV]
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
[2Co 4:13 KJV]
13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it doesn't mean our choice. It means that we CAN"T build it.
Jesus was informing that if we accurately estimate
the cost, it will be too high for any man (beside himself) to build
- it is outside of man's power to do so.

Jesus was talking about loving Him more than parents just before He told the Parable...
It's incredible how 2 persons can read the same paragraph and come away with 2 different ideas.

Luke 14:25-33
25Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them,
26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
Jesus is speaking about the cost of discipleship.
Notice too that verse 26 states IF anyone come to Me....
WE go to JESUS...He's already looking for us.
The crowds were following HIM...
They were seeking Him.


27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
Again, Jesus is speaking about discipleship.


28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’
He's still speaking about Discipleship...
It would make no sense to change the conversation now
and especially for what you've stated.
Jesus is still speaking of being a disciple of His and what it will cost us.


31“Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?
32“Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
33“So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
The last verse, 33, is still continuing on about counting the cost of being a disciple....
in this case, giving up possessions.

Intellectual honesty must accept this.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is only ONE God: He is the Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, the Son, Christ, Spirit of Christ, all one God (and probably more titles/labels that I can't recall right now)- it is impossible that it is otherwise, but I'm not going into that aspect now.
Anyway, if you read them closely and really think about them, these should completely suffice in answering your objections.

Notice in 2Th 2:13 it is clearly stated - that God from "the beginning chosen" "the beloved of the Lord" - the elect - to salvation. He did so through the sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF OF THE TRUTH. That means the "belief" came only through/by "the Spirit" unto them and was not by the person.
[2Th 2:13 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Notice in v77, that for someone to truly comprehend salvation, their sins must be remitted. Therefore, faith
is preceded by the remission of sin, otherwise, they remain blind to salvation.

[Luk 1:76-77 KJV]
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

[1Pe 1:2-3 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Notice in 13, that God is filling them with joy and peace, by having given to them belief: the "in believing".

[Rom 15:13-14 KJV]
13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

The Holy Spirit indwells someone by their spiritual rebirth, but not to everyone
[2Ti 1:14 KJV]
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Those born again are renewed in their spiritual minds by the Holy Spirit
[Eph 4:23 KJV]
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

As natural man, the unsaved have a "carnal mind", and therefore, cannot comprehend things spiritual.
They must first be born again by the Spirit in order to know the things of the Spirit.
Those who do not have the Spirit, are not God's.
So, therefore, we can see it impossible for someone to give themselves true faith, although they may
think they have. For someone to become free from the carnal, God must first intervene with the Spirit -
this does not happen to everyone.

[Rom 8:5, 7-11 KJV]
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. ...
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[Rom 8:14 KJV]
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[2Co 1:21-22 KJV]
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
[2Co 4:13 KJV]
13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Too much here.
Tomorrow...

 

[rogerg]

Those that don't believe don't care about the Holy Spirit.

It's the reverse: those who don't have the Holy Spirit, don't, won't and can't believe.
Those who do, will.

I can't find where the NT states that God CHOSE whom He will save before the foundation of the world.

Here:

[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I can't find where the NT states that God CHOSE whom He will save before the foundation of the world.
I read many verses that state we are to make a choice, but of course, you don't see those verses.
What could be easier than:
Romans 10:9
9Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:17
17Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
and
Acts 16:31
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

We've discussed this before. The hearing is spiritual hearing. I posted verses about this but
here are a few again. Until when, and if, born again, we will not have spiritual ears that can hear

[Jhn 8:43, 45, 47 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. ...
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not. ...
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

All would not become saved just because God's grace and mercy fall on all.
You only believe that because you believe in Irresistible grace.
God's mercy falls on all.
It is possible to resist that mercy because we have free will. You don't believe we have free will.

I don't understand what you are saying. It is not possible to resist God's mercy and grace
because from it, we become new a new person with a renewed mind.

Too much here.
Tomorrow...

Okay. Me too

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that a Calvinist can fall away from faith in Calvinism and believe the Gospel and be saved.

What?
A Calvinist CAN fall away from the faith.
Anyone can in any denomination.

You mean AND THEN believe the gospel and be saved?

I'd say that it's not our job to figure out who's saved and who is not.
I'd say anyone following God, no matter how wrong the doctrines of his denomination,
is saved.

God is not of a particular denomination.

 

[Cooper]

But the diagram is correct since the Father is not the Son and neither are the Holy Spirit. Each is fully and truly God, each coeternal and coequal, but they are in some way distinct from each other. They are not merely three titles.

There is only 1 God.
When you say "each one" and you go on to say "they are distinct from each other" you are making 3 gods.
The Son is God.
The Father is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
THREE GODS!

The Son is NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Father is NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is NOT the Son or the Father.
YOU ARE MAKING THREE DISTINCT GODS!

No wonder people laugh at Trinitarians.
Neither should people deny the fulness and completeness of God.
There is ONE GOD in heaven, on earth, and in our hearts.
.

 

[Cooper]

Out of time.

In truth, there is one tripartite, omnipresent God who is body, soul and spirit.
.

 

[Free]

There is only 1 God.
When you say "each one" and you go on to say "they are distinct from each other" you are making 3 gods.
The Son is God.
The Father is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
THREE GODS!

The Son is NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Father is NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is NOT the Son or the Father.
YOU ARE MAKING THREE DISTINCT GODS!

No wonder people laugh at Trinitarians.
Neither should people deny the fulness and completeness of God.
There is ONE GOD in heaven, on earth, and in our hearts.
.

If that’s what you think the doctrine of the Trinity leads to, you don’t understand it and so shouldn’t be arguing against it.

Out of time.

In truth, there is one tripartite, omnipresent God who is body, soul and spirit.
.

God is one, yet tripartite with a body, soul, and spirit? That would mean God isn’t God unless he had all three parts for eternity past, and each is only part God. God is then divisible. Which part is omnipresent?

 

[Cooper]

If that’s what you think the doctrine of the Trinity leads to, you don’t understand it and so shouldn’t be arguing against it.


God is one, yet tripartite with a body, soul, and spirit? That would mean God isn’t God unless he had all three parts for eternity past, and each is only part God. God is then divisible. Which part is omnipresent?

You do not get it. Jesus is God with us. He is God of heaven and earth. Jesus is the WORD who created the heavens and earth. There is only ONE God and God is not divisible.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

You do not get it. Jesus is God with us. He is God of heaven and earth. Jesus is the WORD who created the heavens and earth. There is only ONE God and God is not divisible.
.

I think Free might be saying you're arguing against the Trinity.
Could you please clarify?
I don't think you are.

 

[GodsGrace]

PS
Don't derail into a thread about the Trinity!

 

[GodsGrace]

You do not get it. Jesus is God with us. He is God of heaven and earth. Jesus is the WORD who created the heavens and earth. There is only ONE God and God is not divisible.
.

Cooper,
I don't think it's that Free doesn't get it....
I think it's difficult to discuss.

I'd like a thread on this but it always turns into a thread about Jesus not being God....

Free?

 

[rogerg]

Ok, but what about the word AGAIN?

No, not before being saved, before knowing. The sin is that they return to their works for salvation instead of Christ.
They knew it superficially but only by man's human logic and intellect. Knowledge by man's intellect is not of those who have become born again. To be born again only happens through the Holy Spirit and turns them into a new kind of person who cannot fall back because their change is by/of God and not of themselves. He who has called them has given them a new spirit which changes the hearts and minds, not the reverse. You perceive it as being from the outside in, but is actually from the inside out.

Let me ask you a question, wondering - I've been mulling over why we see salvation so differently
and it occurred to me that maybe it is because you do not perceive the Bible, and the Bible alone
as sole revelation and authority of God's word to mankind but may also look to sources outside of it.
So, do you consider anything else on a par with it, such as other books, church doctrines, infallible
utterances of a person, etc, that you also trust in forming your beliefs, or is it the Bible alone?

 

[GodsGrace]

Cooper,
I don't think it's that Free doesn't get it....
I think it's difficult to discuss.

I'd like a thread on this but it always turns into a thread about Jesus not being God....

Free?

Niblo

A thread on the Trinity?

 

[Niblo]

Niblo

A thread on the Trinity?

My my, but you are a glutton for punishment! .

Proceed (would help you out, but can't work out how to start a thread ). Happy New Year, by the way. .

Blessings.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, not before being saved, before knowing. The sin is that they return to their works for salvation instead of Christ.
They knew it superficially but only by man's human logic and intellect. Knowledge by man's intellect is not of those who have become born again. To be born again only happens through the Holy Spirit and turns them into a new kind of person who cannot fall back because their change is by/of God and not of themselves. He who has called them has given them a new spirit which changes the hearts and minds, not the reverse. You perceive it as being from the outside in, but is actually from the inside out.

Let me ask you a question, wondering - I've been mulling over why we see salvation so differently
and it occurred to me that maybe it is because you do not perceive the Bible, and the Bible alone
as sole revelation and authority of God's word to mankind but may also look to sources outside of it.
So, do you consider anything else on a par with it, such as other books, church doctrines, infallible
utterances of a person, etc, that you also trust in forming your beliefs, or is it the Bible alone?

What did I say about the word AGAIN?
Do you mean Hebrews 6?
If so, I NEVER said one can't return to God !

But I know persons that come to God through intellect. Why do you want God in a box?
You can't believe this because of how you view soteriology. I'm much more open.

Re the bible. Wonder why you're asking.....

I was raised Catholic,
Became born again in late 20's.
Left the CC.
Attended a Nazarene church.
Very nice.
Left for here.
Involved in Catholicism again.
Long story.
Been studying the bible over 40 years.
Some years ago became interested in church history....met up with the ECFs.

What about you R....
You listen to Calvin, Piper, Luther, Sproul
Or only the bible??

 

[Niblo]

What about you R....
You listen to Calvin, Piper, Luther, Sproul
Or only the bible??

Ouch!

 

[GodsGrace]

My my, but you are a glutton for punishment! .

Proceed (would help you out, but can't work out how to start a thread ). Happy New Year, by the way. .

Blessings.

Yes.
No good deed goes unpunished!

Later.
Will tag you in.
Joy of Joy's.
Lol

 

[Niblo]

Yes.
No good deed goes unpunished!

Later.
Will tag you in.
Joy of Joy's.
Lol

Nice one! Off to do my exercise now.

Blessings, Sister.

 

[Robert Pate]

What?
A Calvinist CAN fall away from the faith.
Anyone can in any denomination.

You mean AND THEN believe the gospel and be saved?

I'd say that it's not our job to figure out who's saved and who is not.
I'd say anyone following God, no matter how wrong the doctrines of his denomination,
is saved.

God is not of a particular denomination.

Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. Not many will be saved, simply because they don't believe the Gospel. To believe the Gospel you must believe that Jesus has atoned for your sins and that you have been justified. Most are trying to save themselves by their works and their religion, Matthew 7:21-23.