Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The only verse explicitly indicating a separation is 2 Thess. 1:9: "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." Yet here we still get the theme of eternal destruction. Elsewhere Hell is described, the emphasis is always on the destruction/fire/pain/suffering, not on a separation. People like C. S. Lewis might want to emphasize the separation aspect to make Hell more palatable, but that's not the biblical emphasis.

Correct, eternal destruction not merely separation from a Person you didn’t want to be with in any case.

Yes, I read it. So one explanation is annihilationism. That's fine.

The wages of sin is death - I think that verse actually does refer to what happens after death, but it's sometimes expressed as "eternal death." What would it mean to refer to the life in the body? Because everyone dies in the body, believer or no.

There’s two we know of who didn’t die.

Agreed, which is why the Bible also has to add the eternal destruction. Believers will be dissuaded from Hell purely based on the separation. But unbelievers also need the eternal destruction. That's how the Bible controls people.

If the Bible is controlling people, how come atheists are not being controlled into believing? Looking at real life here.

Perhaps, but this necessarily excludes your view from discussion.

Not necessarily although in any problem, when the solution is found, the discussion is over. Solve a tricky math problem and the discussion on how to do so is over. Doesn’t make it less satisfying.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Anyone could make it their life's work to separate themselves from God but it is an impossibility while we are alive . Why ? God is omnipresent . So in this life no one knows what it is to be truly separated from God ! God and all of His attributes are still close to you even if you don't want them to be .

Does God promise He is with the wicked same as the righteous?

“Hell is a special place prepared for Satan and his cohorts it is not God's intention for humans to go there but yet they choose this destination .” I agree.

The reason I brought up separation from God is that we have always had God close by .
No one alive truly knows what it is to be separated from God !
To be separated from God's Love , Kindness , Goodwill , Compassion , and his Grace . That will be a Hell of pain without a doubt almost unimaginable . Palatable surely you jest .

There are those who do not want Heaven and say so. I’ve heard them. They call God bad names and curse Him. If that isn’t desiring separation, what is?

I agree they don’t know what they’re asking but Jesus who described hell more than all the others put together never mentioned eternal separation from God as one of the torments. Not once that I recall. Am I mistaken?

Attributes of God

What does it mean that hell is eternal separation from God?

Is hell eternal separation from God?

I think this is a theology to make Christians comfort themselves by the assumption that all the horrible descriptions of hell aren’t true. It’s just separation from God (and that’s not so bad.)

 

[Goldwing]

Where does the Bible report that the punishments for sin is dealt out purely in the length of time one is in hell? I do not recall seeing that to be any sentence.

Since the wages of sin is death refers purely to the life we live in the body, that verse cannot be used to support your position. Neither does the scripture on Sodom support it because they all died instantly with no reference to what happened afterwards.

Dorothy, in (1Cor. 6: 2,3) Paul states the saints will, " judge the world and angles". Have you ever given thought why the saints reign with Christ in heaven a thousand yrs. between the first and second resurrection?

They then return with Christ to earth within New Jerusalem. The wicked are resurrected in their old bodies to face the, "Great White Throne Judgement." What do you think is the purpose of this Judgement?

You state, "Since the wages of sin is death refers purely to the life we live in the body, that verse cannot be used to support your position." This makes no sense to me, since I'm not aware the Bible teaches that man lives outside of his body.

You state, "Neither does the scripture on Sodom support it because they all died instantly with no reference to what happened afterwards." The reason for that is they "died" and were burned to ashes. What would you expect? Is there any Biblical record of what happen to the wicked of whom God destroyed in the flood?

How do you understand the texts. (2 Peter 2:6) "...making them an ensample unto those that after that should live ungodly"?

 

[Goldwing]

Hell is separation from God for eternity .

Any disagreement on that ?

That is a vague statement. If you mean once one lives out their time in hell, making restitution for their sins, and then are reduce to ashes, then, yes I agreed. Perhaps you have something else in mind and need to clarify you position more clearly.

 

[for_his_glory]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

Death and hell have no place in the new creation (New Jerusalem) as there will be no more need for this anymore when all things are made new again. Those who names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more. Hopefully these scriptures will help.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[for_his_glory]

Where do you get the idea that God returns the world to its state before sun?

The New Heaven and the New Earth
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[Free]

T.E. Smith. You make a very good point, even common sense tells you that a eternal Hell, is contrary to the character of God.

How so?

Yet many Christians it seems, lack basic common sense.

Be careful with statements like this, as many people, each smarter than all of us put together, have believed and do believe in an eternal hell.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hell is separation from God for eternity .

Any disagreement on that ?

It's not eternal life as an eternal life with the Father, but that of an eternal torment in the sense of spending an eternal miserable existence being tormented day and night. Scripture never calls it an eternal life in the lake of fire, but that of damnation as the scenario would be that of the complete opposite of the eternal life with Christ. Existing is still life, whether it be a glorified life with Christ in the New Jerusalem or one of damnation and torment in the lake of fire as both are eternal.

One needs to define a word to understand what it means. Scripture never says what we will look like in the resurrection of life or damnation. Matthew 13:36-42 speaks about the tares being the children of the wicked one who would be Satan and says they will be cast into a furnace of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth from those who are cast into the lake of fire so that one verse alone shows me they will have some kind of existence, but no one knows what they will look like. The rest of these verses are pertinent to that of the resurrection of life both in the New Jerusalem and the lake of fire.

Exist: to have actual being or reality; to live
Existence: the fact or state of existing, living or occurring the manner of existing

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Here dust + breath from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

One can not compare eternal life with the Father with eternal damnation in the lake of fire except that the two are opposite from each other. Those who are resurrected to be with the Lord will have an eternal life (existence) basking in Gods glory. Those who are cast in the lake of fire will not literally be consumed by an eternal literal fire as fire here means torment, destruction or as being destroyed or broken down like someone saying that we are going to destroy you and drag your name through the mud. They are not literally destroyed, but brought down to a lower level. Those in the lake of fire will have an existence of weeping and gnashing of teeth for the destruction and torment they will face for eternity. Death means separation from God as their eternal destiny (life) is the lake of fire. If death here meant not to exist anymore than what would be the purpose of the the second death and being resurrected to stand in the great white throne judgement. Couldn't God just make them vanish as if they never existed in the first place!

You keep saying death is an existence and if one is existing then it has to be some form of life. Not like the life we have now as being alive here on earth, not like eternal life with the Father, but yet a form of a tormented eternal life of existence in the lake of fire for eternity. We know flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God and many will be alive when Christ returns. Those who have physically died in Christ will be changed in a twinkling of an eye to meet Him in the air just as we who are physically alive will be gathered with them, but yet we do not know physically what we will look like for many will be only dust in the ground when they are resurrected to be with the Lord forever. Those who have physically died and have no part of the inheritance also will be only dust in the ground depending how long they have been asleep, but yet will be transformed and meet those who are alive to stand before God in His great white throne judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire. There existence will be an eternal life of torment being separated from God forever. Scripture also calls it outer darkness and in my own minds eye I see it as not only being separated from God for ever, but like looking through a window in all their torment seeing that God does exist and they will never be a part of His glory. Eternal death is separation from God, but yet as we see in scripture they do exist in a tormented state forever as one has to have some form of life to exist even though it is not like the physical life we have now as all will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, but yet no one knows what anyone in Christ or those separated from Christ will look like.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Ecc 9:5 for the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
James 2:26 for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[for_his_glory]

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell​

 

[Free]

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell​

It’s actually the very opposite. The KJV is to blame for rendering three different words as “hell”—hades, Gehenna, and tartaroo. Hades simply refers to the grave or abode of the dead; the place people go when they die. Gehenna, on the other hand, is the place that Jesus warns so often about that is the final destination of the wicked; it is hell proper.

When we look in Revelation, it is Hades, the grave, that gets thrown into the lake of fire, which just happens to be the final destination of the wicked. So, it is most likely that the lake of fire is hell.

 

[Goldwing]

A "hard time"? I just cited Revelation 20:10 "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever" and Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." Biblically Hell is actually everlasting torment, that is, torment forever and ever.

Mr. Smith, are you really looking for the truth here or are you just out to rattle peoples chains? Lets use some common sense here. First, as I've stated earlier, (Rm. 6:23) clearly states the the wages of sin is "death". This does not mean the first death that most of God's creation will experience before His return. This of course includes the lost and the saved. This is the consequence of sin. The second death, which only the wicked will experience is what is referred to in (Rm. 6:23). It is execution in Hell, and the length of suffering one experience is based on their sins. Does this sound like something a just, and loving God would do, in order that the sin problem does not take root again in His New Kingdom here on earth?

Now take (Rev. 14:11; 20:10) as you understand them, and what your understanding does is it puts the Bible in a state of internal conflict. Meaning texts on the same topic contradicting each other. Please understand the Bible which speaks for God does not contradict itself. This contradiction only occurs when individuals misunderstand what the Bible is saying.

To right the contradiction as you see it, is to understand that the term, "forever and ever"in the contexts of the two verses in Rev., means "until death." Understood as such, you see that your understand will harmonize with (Rm. 6:23) thus removing the internal conflict you understanding created.

Lets consider another verse that uses the word, "eternal", which is synonymous with the word "everlasting", (Jude 1:7) Jude states, that Sodom and Gomorrah "serve as an example", the punishment of "eternal fire".
Now, do you believe that these fires and their smoke are still ongoing today? I'm sure common sense tells you, no. Why, because fires can burn themselves out once they consume all that consumable and nothing is left to burn but ash. Such is the fires of Hell.

When one reasons as I have just shared, then the Bible remains in harmony in it's teaching and one knows that their understanding is truth.

 

[Goldwing]

It’s actually the very opposite. The KJV is to blame for rendering three different words as “hell”—hades, Gehenna, and tartaroo. Hades simply refers to the grave or abode of the dead; the place people go when they die. Gehenna, on the other hand, is the place that Jesus warns so often about that is the final destination of the wicked; it is hell proper.

When we look in Revelation, it is Hades, the grave, that gets thrown into the lake of fire, which just happens to be Erne final destination of the wicked. So, it is most likely that the lake of fire is hell.

You are right on. Thanks for the post.

 

[T. E. Smith]

I think this is a theology to make Christians comfort themselves by the assumption that all the horrible descriptions of hell aren’t true. It’s just separation from God (and that’s not so bad.)

Right, the human conscience naturally and correctly is revolted by the idea of Hell, yet many Christians cannot abandon it altogether - and thus just try to soften the blow.

 

[T. E. Smith]

To right the contradiction as you see it, is to understand that the term, "forever and ever"in the contexts of the two verses in Rev., means "until death."

Defend that substitution please, and can you cite a Greek scholar who agrees with you? Does it ever mean that anywhere else in the Bible or in extrabiblical usage?

 

[for_his_glory]

It’s actually the very opposite. The KJV is to blame for rendering three different words as “hell”—hades, Gehenna, and tartaroo. Hades simply refers to the grave or abode of the dead; the place people go when they die. Gehenna, on the other hand, is the place that Jesus warns so often about that is the final destination of the wicked; it is hell proper.

When we look in Revelation, it is Hades, the grave, that gets thrown into the lake of fire, which just happens to be the final destination of the wicked. So, it is most likely that the lake of fire is hell.

I didn't mention anything about Gehenna and Tartaroo, but since you brought it up I agree all three are different from each other.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell

Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit

Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.​

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Right, the human conscience naturally and correctly is revolted by the idea of Hell, yet many Christians cannot abandon it altogether - and thus just try to soften the blow.

It’s difficult to believe Jesus knew what he was talking about when it comes to eternally in Heaven but was greatly mistaken when it comes to eternally in Hell. The human mind naturally revolves against such illogic.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The New Heaven and the New Earth
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Where do any of those verses say God returns the earth to the state of Eden? The statements are actually something new, not something returning to the old.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy, in (1Cor. 6: 2,3) Paul states the saints will, " judge the world and angles".

No hint of the punishment being a time sentence. That was the claim.

Have you ever given thought why the saints reign with Christ in heaven a thousand yrs. between the first and second resurrection?

The 1000 years means a long time. And it is not a time sentence for the wicked in any case.

They then return with Christ to earth within New Jerusalem. The wicked are resurrected in their old bodies to face the, "Great White Throne Judgement." What do you think is the purpose of this Judgement?

Justice. Same as everyone’s judgement. All will give an answer as to the deeds done in the body. Everyone will have to tell the truth.

You state, "Since the wages of sin is death refers purely to the life we live in the body, that verse cannot be used to support your position." This makes no sense to me, since I'm not aware the Bible teaches that man lives outside of his body.

Those “with the Lord” are living outside the body at this point.

You state, "Neither does the scripture on Sodom support it because they all died instantly with no reference to what happened afterwards." The reason for that is they "died" and were burned to ashes. What would you expect? Is there any Biblical record of what happen to the wicked of whom God destroyed in the flood?

How do you understand the texts. (2 Peter 2:6) "...making them an ensample unto those that after that should live ungodly"?

That the people who do wickedness will be punished. What else could it mean?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sounds good to me.

That’s my point. It sounds good to people which renders this arrangement a reward.

Is God present in Hell? If not, is he then truly not omnipresent?

This is a good point, but any argument based on attributes of God are likely to be faulty.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Prayers appreciated. I guess we'll see how it turns out.

We certainly will but by that time it’s too late to render that understanding life/eternity destination changing.