James 2 And OSAS

[chessman]

The answer is an obvious "no".

I agree and say the obvious answer to James’ question ( Can that faith save him?) is no. In fact the structure of the Greek grammar being in the form of a negative statement, I’m told, requires the answer to the question to be no. Also James gives the answer to this question in verses 17 and 26. Which leads me to my point to answer the assertion that you made that I have to “choose between the two, OSAS or sola-fideâ€.

It seems like you have to choose between the two, OSAS or sola-fide

I believe in both sola-fide and OSAS because that’s what the texts actually says, versus your misrepresentation of what it says.

Actually, the words are "can faith save him?", there is no "that" or "type" of faith.

1. The Biblical evidence from the Greek manuscripts of verse 14 is against your dogmatic, incorrect statement here. But it certainly explains why we understand James 2 to teach two totally different things. That’s my answer to your assertion that OSAS and sola-fide are not compatible. OSAS is compatible with sola-fide via sola-scripture. It’s just not compatible with sola-daddyo.

2. I’m just reading what’s there and understanding what James is saying versus what you incorrectly are saying that he has said. You have changed what James says in verse 14 (and most likely many other places as well) by stating there is no definite article ἡ that ties this “Faith†to that which he just described as a “said faithâ€.

3. The Biblical evidence from James 14 manuscripts clearly has a grammatical article with pistis (faith). That’s why EVERY modern translation includes it (see list below).

4. The Biblical evidence from James’ later verses in Chapter 2 is against your statement here.

a. So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:17 ESV)
b. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. (James 2:26 ESV)
​

5. I have no incentive to remove the definite article in this verse from any outside pressure whether that threat being burned alive or just simply social ostracizing from friends/family.

6. It’s rather pointless to discuss (debate) Scripture with someone that feels like it’s acceptable to just remove words (or add them as they see fit). I’ve answered your assertion as to why/how I can view OSAS as being compatible with sola-fide. Sola-fide is about putting our full faith in God for the remission of our sins period. There is no qualification to that faith. It’s faith to leads to salvation, then comes the works to prove it to the humans viewing our works around us looking at our actions. The thief on the cross could not even move his hands and feet to do any “worksâ€, yet his belief in Jesus as God’s son saved him.

7. As James is pointing out in verse 23 “and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousnessâ€â€”and he was called a friend of God. (James 2:23-26 ESV). That’s sola-fide and OSAS in one verse.

8. And Paul, for example, agrees with James and his method of proof (tying sola-fide to O.T Scripture). I find zero incompatibility with OSAS and sola-fide in James (verses 2:21 and 25, included) or the rest of Scripture.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nationsâ€â€”in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. (Romans 4:13-17 ESV)
​

9. It seems odd that any Christian would have the incentive to remove the definite article ἡ within the this text, thus removing any faith of any “type†toward our salvation. (see the original Greek text and EVERY modern translation except the 1611 and New King James translations) . Without the qualification of this type of faith in the question of verse 14 (“that faith†or “His faithâ€) and assuming therefore James means any/all types of faith, then that would have James saying no faith of any “type†can save you because of the grammar of the text being negative. Thus, salvation becomes not “faith plus works†but it’s ALL works. No faith of any type is required. Which doesn’t make sense even within a faith plus works doctrinal view of salvation. If that were the case, then there’s no need for a “saviorâ€. Jesus cannot be the “redeemerâ€. We would be fully redeeming ourselves, via our works totally apart from any faith. On that view, we can and do “save†ourselves wholly apart from any faith whatsoever. No savior required. He’s not Lord, we are? Might as well be atheist or Buddhist.

10. But the fact remains, that there is ἡ (in the Greek) prior to pistis (faith) in verse 14 that every modern translation translates as either “that†or “his†as these experts all agree that James is qualifying a “type†of faith to his readers. The literal translation (Young’s) even has it that way.

James 2:14 (ESV, ASV, NASB, YLT) Can that faith save him?
James 2:14 (HCSB, RSV) Can his faith save him?
James 2:14 Amplified Bible (AMP) Can [such] faith save [his soul].

Yes, the King James translators choose: Can faith save him? I have no idea why nor do I care, frankly.

But the Greek has this article [ἡ translated That or His] in its manuscripts. You are simply flat out wrong when you say otherwise.

And of course the reason this is important toward understanding what James is saying (besides the obviousness of correctly translating the Greek) is that the whole point of James 2 is to show that a true faith will in fact produce some outwardly signs, be they as simple as housing some strangers in need all the way to sacrificing your child if that’s what God has lead you to do. But those works (signs to people) are NOT what leads to righteousness. They rather follow along with that righteousness. They are horizontal types of faith and justifications (man-to-man) not a vertical fiath (man-to-God).

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? (James 2:21 ESV)
​

And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.(James 2:25-26 ESV)
​

As a OSAS and Sola-fide believer, I say Amen to James' words here. Absolutely, I can see where these were both events/actions/works perfomred by these two people that demonstrates to me they did in fact have true faith in God. I"m blessed that ehy have been recorded in the Bible. Else, why would they have done such things, had they not had true faith (as Peter would point out). It's a buch of pigs and dogs that don't show their true faith.

I’m also amazed at the dedication and hard work that many Christians, ministers, pastors, missionaries and priests perform. I do think it’s an indication that they have faith in Jesus (else why didicate their lives to this work). But it’s Jesus that is their Savior, not their works. And I clearly see that James agrees.

 

[dadof10]

Either way, works must accompany saving faith. And you can't be OSAS if you believe that. That's the point.

Romans 4
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Is Paul disagreeing with James? NO
and that is why James does not disprove OSAS.
James is talking about faith and if one does not have saving faith then they are not saved, never were saved. Not saved and lost it.

Hebrews 11
11 Through faith also Sarah herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

All of Hebrew 11 speaks of the faith people....Sarah is just one.
Do you suppose the Sarah lost her salvation when she doubted God and then got it back when she "judged Him faithful"? I'm speaking of when Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to give him a child. God had already promised Isaac.

Let me toss something out here. The word "works" here, and everywhere else in Paul's letters, refers to "works of the Mosaic law". It does not refer to all good deeds. "Works" in James 2, refers to good deeds done in faith, not "works of the Mosaic law". Paul and James mean two different things by the word "works", so don't contradict.

 

[smaller]

Let me toss something out here. The word "works" here, and everywhere else in Paul's letters, refers to "works of the Mosaic law". It does not refer to all good deeds. "Works" in James 2, refers to good deeds done in faith, not "works of the Mosaic law". Paul and James mean two different things by the word "works", so don't contradict.

Paul considered those doing 'works of the Mosaic law' were doing just FINE. It is not 'illegal' to do Saturday Sabbath or not eat pork:

Romans 14:
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

s

 

[dadof10]

This is a new one. Do you mean that you were born righteous and then, when you "accepted Jesus" this act just displayed what was already there? I don't understand.

Born righteous, heavens NO. You already know all this.

Romans 5:17-18
King James Version (KJV)
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 4:6-8
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.




Impute in these scriptures = a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight

OK, then "justified" means "to impute righteousness"? You just confused me when you said "found righteous". So the verses in question would read like this:

"Was not Abraham our father [imputed actual righteousness by God] by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?"

"And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot [imputed actual righteousness by God] by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?"

Does this accurately portray your view?

 

[smaller]

One of the most obvious frailties in promoting the eternal damnation of fallen believers is by using any measure of SIN.

We are all factual sinners down to the last one of us. This much is obvious.

Can a believer be again blinded by the devil? Uh, yeah, every time we sin, sin is in fact 'of the devil.' Is it really a matter of 'how bad' from that point of fact?

Belief in itself, however fleeting, even momentary, is a miracle. Some flowers appear for a very short period of time and then they are gone, just like the grass.

Why believers seek to eternally destroy such is a sign of their own internal blindness.

IF sin is the measure, then Paul dragged himself down to the lowest point he could find in terming himself of sinners, "I am chief." An after salvation statement.

So who is lower than that?

?

Sin can not be the measure of damnation for a believer. Fallen in blindness? Yes, assuredly in this life we all suffer that to varying degrees.

It is not profitable for any of our hearts to diminish anyone who has believed, loved or done righteousness.

Those whom we sought to condemn will more than likely be our eternal compatriots.

Overwhelming Grace of God in Christ is never off the table in the heart of those who abide in the here and now.

s

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The answer is an obvious "no".

I agree and say the obvious answer to James’ question ( Can that faith save him?) is no. In fact the structure of the Greek grammar being in the form of a negative statement, I’m told, requires the answer to the question to be no. Also James gives the answer to this question in verses 17 and 26. Which leads me to my point to answer the assertion that you made that I have to “choose between the two, OSAS or sola-fide”.

It seems like you have to choose between the two, OSAS or sola-fide

I believe in both sola-fide and OSAS because that’s what the texts actually says, versus your misrepresentation of what it says.

Actually, the words are "can faith save him?", there is no "that" or "type" of faith.

1. The Biblical evidence from the Greek manuscripts of verse 14 is against your dogmatic, incorrect statement here. But it certainly explains why we understand James 2 to teach two totally different things. That’s my answer to your assertion that OSAS and sola-fide are not compatible. OSAS is compatible with sola-fide via sola-scripture. It’s just not compatible with sola-daddyo.

2. I’m just reading what’s there and understanding what James is saying versus what you incorrectly are saying that he has said. You have changed what James says in verse 14 (and most likely many other places as well) by stating there is no definite article ἡ that ties this “Faith” to that which he just described as a “said faith”.

3. The Biblical evidence from James 14 manuscripts clearly has a grammatical article with pistis (faith). That’s why EVERY modern translation includes it (see list below).

4. The Biblical evidence from James’ later verses in Chapter 2 is against your statement here.

a. So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:17 ESV)
b. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. (James 2:26 ESV)
​

5. I have no incentive to remove the definite article in this verse from any outside pressure whether that threat being burned alive or just simply social ostracizing from friends/family.

6. It’s rather pointless to discuss (debate) Scripture with someone that feels like it’s acceptable to just remove words (or add them as they see fit). I’ve answered your assertion as to why/how I can view OSAS as being compatible with sola-fide. Sola-fide is about putting our full faith in God for the remission of our sins period. There is no qualification to that faith. It’s faith to leads to salvation, then comes the works to prove it to the humans viewing our works around us looking at our actions. The thief on the cross could not even move his hands and feet to do any “works”, yet his belief in Jesus as God’s son saved him.

7. As James is pointing out in verse 23 “and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. (James 2:23-26 ESV). That’s sola-fide and OSAS in one verse.

8. And Paul, for example, agrees with James and his method of proof (tying sola-fide to O.T Scripture). I find zero incompatibility with OSAS and sola-fide in James (verses 2:21 and 25, included) or the rest of Scripture.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. (Romans 4:13-17 ESV)
​

9. It seems odd that any Christian would have the incentive to remove the definite article ἡ within the this text, thus removing any faith of any “type” toward our salvation. (see the original Greek text and EVERY modern translation except the 1611 and New King James translations) . Without the qualification of this type of faith in the question of verse 14 (“that faith” or “His faith”) and assuming therefore James means any/all types of faith, then that would have James saying no faith of any “type” can save you because of the grammar of the text being negative. Thus, salvation becomes not “faith plus works” but it’s ALL works. No faith of any type is required. Which doesn’t make sense even within a faith plus works doctrinal view of salvation. If that were the case, then there’s no need for a “savior”. Jesus cannot be the “redeemer”. We would be fully redeeming ourselves, via our works totally apart from any faith. On that view, we can and do “save” ourselves wholly apart from any faith whatsoever. No savior required. He’s not Lord, we are? Might as well be atheist or Buddhist.

10. But the fact remains, that there is ἡ (in the Greek) prior to pistis (faith) in verse 14 that every modern translation translates as either “that” or “his” as these experts all agree that James is qualifying a “type” of faith to his readers. The literal translation (Young’s) even has it that way.

James 2:14 (ESV, ASV, NASB, YLT) Can that faith save him?
James 2:14 (HCSB, RSV) Can his faith save him?
James 2:14 Amplified Bible (AMP) Can [such] faith save [his soul].

Yes, the King James translators choose: Can faith save him? I have no idea why nor do I care, frankly.

But the Greek has this article [ἡ translated That or His] in its manuscripts. You are simply flat out wrong when you say otherwise.

And of course the reason this is important toward understanding what James is saying (besides the obviousness of correctly translating the Greek) is that the whole point of James 2 is to show that a true faith will in fact produce some outwardly signs, be they as simple as housing some strangers in need all the way to sacrificing your child if that’s what God has lead you to do. But those works (signs to people) are NOT what leads to righteousness. They rather follow along with that righteousness. They are horizontal types of faith and justifications (man-to-man) not a vertical fiath (man-to-God).

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? (James 2:21 ESV)
​

And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.(James 2:25-26 ESV)
​

As a OSAS and Sola-fide believer, I say Amen to James' words here. Absolutely, I can see where these were both events/actions/works perfomred by these two people that demonstrates to me they did in fact have true faith in God. I"m blessed that ehy have been recorded in the Bible. Else, why would they have done such things, had they not had true faith (as Peter would point out). It's a buch of pigs and dogs that don't show their true faith.

I’m also amazed at the dedication and hard work that many Christians, ministers, pastors, missionaries and priests perform. I do think it’s an indication that they have faith in Jesus (else why didicate their lives to this work). But it’s Jesus that is their Savior, not their works. And I clearly see that James agrees.

This is good Chessman. You've added new insight into the matter.

This post is worth reading several times over.

 

[Deborah13]

But some are FALSELY taught that their sin 'is not as bad' as some other [fallen] believers sin.

Yes, sin is sin, no matter what form it takes. Man see sin as big sins and little sins. James teaches this. If I break one law I have broken them all. So isn't that the great equalizer?

It appears to me that there is no curve in God's grading system. You are either saved or not saved. So who is without sin? No one.

Based our own performance we all get F- accounting to, James.

If one takes this teaching with an honest heart how can they believe that anyone will be saved?

To understand James one must take ALL of it and put it together. It is the only one that we have from him as one a whole teaching.

 

[smaller]

But some are FALSELY taught that their sin 'is not as bad' as some other [fallen] believers sin.

Yes, sin is sin, no matter what form it takes. Man see sin as big sins and little sins. James teaches this. If I break one law I have broken them all. So isn't that the great equalizer?

Of course it is. Exactly zero of us will stand before our Maker justifying ourselves over being a 'lesser sinner' than, oh, a believer who gets entirely blindsided by Satan for example and falls in this life in unbelief.

and if we factually observed all the variants in Christianity in general who can blame them for casting a wary eye on the whole lot anyway. It's not like we have coherence.

If a believer picks one doctrinal angle over another they will be factually condemned by the other believers. That's 'real' christianity today.

and that is what we see demonstrated in these discussions.

It appears to me that there is no curve in God's grading system. You are either saved or not saved. So who is without sin? No one.

Based our own performance we all get F- accounting to, James.

For sure. My 'theology' was driven home on this point long ago. There are no excuses for me.

If one takes this teaching with an honest heart how can they believe that anyone will be saved?

There are interesting measures that come to those who see honestly with a good heart. As they measure to others, so their own returns begin. That's how 'eternity' functions.

To understand James one must take ALL of it and put it together. It is the only one that we have from him as one a whole teaching.

I see no contradictions in James with any other N.T. writer. Luther was quite anti-semetic and falsely equated James' 'works' statements with Jewish legalism. Luther was simply wrong in his assessment of James, who was entirely in behalf of the Royal Law, as were all who were (and are) called. If they happen to be Jewish, so what? None of what they did was illegal or that much different than what christianity ended up with. Christians met and taught in synagogues first. Presumably they did so as participants.

The believers only got in trouble when they tried to condemn other believers for not doing (circumcision, food laws etc.) Saying they weren't 'saved' for X reasons.

Today we have the same matters, except now on worldly steroids.

s

 

[chessman]

James and others say we can know we are doing that (continuing in our faith and confidence in Christ--the faith that saves) by our obedience.

I agree. It's this type of honest and what I preserve from your past post (even on other topics) that kind-of surprised me that you would not believe in OSAS. So I asked for where you get this from Scripture. I’m actually rather open-minded about OSAS being wrong. I just don’t think it is. If you posted these in this thread in the past, I simply missed them. Thanks for reposting them.

Being Paul’s writings, Romans 11, Heb 3, Col 1, 1 Cor 15 (with the possible exception of Hebrews) I’m rather surprised that’s what you meant by other Scriptures that teach OSAS=no. But I’ll look at them in their context. Maybe they do say what you imply.
Romans 11 being Titled by commentators as “The Remnant of Israel†or “Israel’s Rejection Not Total†seems not exactly to be on topic of Once Saved Always Saved, under the New Covenant anyway, at first glance. But I refused to read just one verse out of the Bible to hold any doctrines as evidence for (as again you seem to do the same thing). So I start to read Chapter 1 and read:

1 I ask, then, has God rejected His people?(A) Absolutely not!(B)
​

Huh? That doesn’t sound very OSAS = no to me. Nor does it sound like it conflicts with Paul’s own opinion in Romans 4. But I’ll read on:

2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
​

Oh my gosh? Are you sure this teaches OSAS =no? But I read on, with an open mind to this topic:

don’t you know(E) what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—
​

There goes that Paul with his nasty little habit of verifying his truth claims using Scripture to do it. But here he does start to talk about Israel’s past history and it’s where the Bible scholars and commentators get their Title of this chapter (“the remnantâ€). It seems, however, that Paul is possibly off on one of his chapter (or more) long parenthetical statements/examples to his larger point of doctrine “God has NOT rejected His people whom He foreknew.†But I’ll see and read on:

In this case, it doesn’t take Paul long to get back on topic, however, because I see in verse 5 he says:

In the same way, then, there is also at the present time a remnant chosen by grace.(H) 6 Now if by grace,(I) then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace.
​

But once again, Paul seems here to re-affirm OSAS “grace†and it’s permanence, even in modern times and old.
But He goes back to the O.T. example in verse 7, but he cannot even complete a sentence without tiying it to “the electâ€.

7 What then? Israel did not find what it was looking for,(J) but the elect did find it. The rest were hardened,(K)
​

I’m just not getting that OSAS=no feel, 7 verses into Romans 11. What was that verse(s) you mentioned? Oh yea, versus 20-22. I’ll wait and see what they say.
But in the mean time, I notice once again Paul says:

it is written:God gave them a spirit of insensitivity, eyes that cannot see
and ears that cannot hear, to this day.(L)
​

But I also remember, Paul just got through saying “they did not find what they were looking forâ€. Sounds like they had there “chance†their “free-will†if you will. Yet made the wrong choose prior to God giving them a spirit of insensity (but that’s another topic altogether).
David… blah, blah, blah to get to your proof texts for OSAS= no in verses 20-22:

That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. (Romans 11:20-24 ESV)
​

“that is trueâ€. What is true? What he just got through saying (everything including verses 1,2,5,6 and 7). So let’s see if Paul is schizophrenic or not:

1. You highlight “You stand by faith†I don’t see anything OSAS=no in that. I thank God for my faith (as I’m sure you do as well). Without it, I’m sure I’d be an atheist. All the other choices, like Islam, just don’t seem very desirable to me. [I digress]

2. You highlight “kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness†I see your point here.I suppose someone could interpret verse 22 to indicate an in-out-in-out situation to salvation here in this one verse. Especially the “Otherwise, you also will be cut off†part. However, is that really what Paul means (OSAS=no) given what he just got through saying? I personally don’t think so. Just broadly speaking, if that’s what he meant, it would seem Paul says one thing in one verse and another in another verse. I suppose that’s theoretically possible. But I’d have to give up Scriptural inerrancy and Holy Spirit inspiration to interpret this verse that way. So, I evaluate it a little more closely given the entire context of his message.

3. First point is Paul is obviously still using (or eluding to) the example he just got through describing (God gave these hard-hearted people over to their insensitive ways, yet preserved His remnant). I see nothing anti-OSAS in that. God’s either sovereign or He’s not. He’s either just or He’s not. I see absolutely nothing anti-OSAS with God “cutting off†a person that has no desire (faith) in Him in the first place. That’s not OSAS=no. That’s called Hell.

4. Second point is you might notice that in verse 23 Paul says: 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." These people that are “cut-offâ€. I highlighted the persist in unbelief.

5. Third point. I’m surprised that you didn’t highlight “again†as I certainly see where that might very well be a proof text for OSAS = no.

6. Simply put, one single phrase such as “graft them in again†does not outweigh all the OSAS=yes points to Paul’s message here. Plus, He does say that it’s God doing the “grafting†in the first place.

7. But technically put, Paul says “For IF…†That’s one big IF. He doesn’t say it has or will, in fact, happen this way.

8. I just simply leave all that up to God. Its rightful place to begin with. Plus I'll point out that Paul just got through saying in verse 6 otherwise grace ceases to be grace. So the "if indeed" kind-of seem in order to the flow of this entire Chapter.


9. I kind of like the way Paul sums the whole possibility up with:

For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. (Romans 11:24 ESV)
​

Well I’ve said enough about Romans 11, for anybody not set in their ways toward OSAS=no, and to my personal satisfaction with Paul’s message anyway.

Again, thanks for clarifying that you think OSAS=no is taught in Romans 11. I’m not trying to convince anyone (honestly) of my interpretation of this passage. It just helps me sort through these topics in my own mind (thinking out loud, so to speak) to know where other people that disagree with me are coming from (and why they are).

And I’ve spent way to much time on this already as I’m very busy right now with other personal issues. I’ll just simply note that every one of the other passages that you mention also have this same “if indeed†phrase to it (even Hebrews which there’s all kinds of similar phrases like this in Hebrews versus Paul’s other writings that indicate to me he’s the author, but that’s off-topic).

Thanks for answering my question though. I find your observations/comments toward Scripture elsewhere and on other topics very consistent with Scripture. That’s why I was surprised that you don’t believe OSAS is true and wondered where you found that.
In fact,

It's very clear that salvation is conditional on continuing in the faith you started out with. And why not, that's how we got it in the first place--by our faith.

is not a bad observation either. I’ve never heard it stated that way before. I agree with the last part. I just haven’t been convinced of the first part through Scripture. But maybe you are right. You’d think it would be stated a little more clearly (maybe even a real world example of a person somewhere), however. I just honestly don’t know how I would reconcile that with all the places that indicate to me OSAS is true. It’s a “mysteryâ€, I suppose.

If it's not possible to continue in the faith we started out with, why does the Bible warn us to stand steadfast in a faith we can not lose?

With God, anything is possible. Plus, it’s always going to be best to stand fast in our faith, no matter what the consequences. It’s that darn works based salvatioconcept that makes anyone “proudâ€, saved or not.

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.â€

Romans 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
​

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

As far as the OSAS argument is concerned, isn't the crux of issue more about whether once a person is a Christian whether or not they are from the initial point on always guaranteed the benefits of being a Christian? The advocates seem to imply whether voluntary or not that even if a person loses their faith, they still maintain the guarantee of salvation from the wages of sin given by Jesus.

In my opinion the title of 'once saved always saved' is a strawman title that leads to confusion as no such dilemma is presented in scripture. The real issue is whether a person that becomes a Christian and for whatever reason departs the faith, loses the (eternal) benefits that faith assures.

 

[Deborah13]

Generally speaking, a follower of Christ was saved, correct? By definition, a follower does the will of the leader, following the leader's teachings and expectations.

Well, I don't think that 'follower' is always saved. Now this is just my opinion of coarse but I don't see in scripture that tells me that Judas was saved. I'm not saying that satan didn't lead him to betray Jesus, it is very obvious that he did. But when I look at the conversation that went on just before all the other disciples call Jesus 'Lord', Judas calls Him 'Rabbi' and there a few other things. Did Judas see Jesus as a 'teacher' but not the Messiah, the Lord? Even Muslims believe Jesus was a great teacher and even a prophet but not Lord.
Because one follows in doing the things of charity etc. (unsaved Jews today are givers) and their church doctrine does that make them a believer in Jesus as Lord? No, and James teaches about that. I think it is John who said, "they went out of us, if they were of us they wouldn't have done so" That's not even close to a quote but it is what he said paraphrased. So there were those who were in the church but not saved.

So it's really all about that personal relationship we have with the Lord.

It means we are now God's children - with all of the rights of adoption. As you know, people can disinherit themselves WHILE STILL being "legally" considered children of the parent(s)

How would one go about that. An inheritance left to a child, the inheritance is left to them, the attorney's legally cannot give it to anyone else. The child would have to legally give it away.

I guess part of my view is because I see God as my true Father. He says "what Father when His child ask for....does he give him a scorpion?" If my son asked me to send him to everlasting torment would I. Absolutely not, I would do everything and anything imaginable to change his mind. That is what a loving parent would do, wouldn't they?

I think we are either a goat or a sheep. Now I couldn't make myself a sheep only God could do that. Once I am a sheep I can't turn myself back into a goat, only God can do that. So if we look at the story of the Good Shepard and He says that a sheep has been lost and He will go find it we have to see that the sheep that is lost is still a sheep. God has not turned him back into a goat and then when he is found God turns him back into a sheep. When we see the word 'lost' we assume that means 'lost salvation' but that appears not to be so in this case.
So that is my point about being His child, can we undo that?

Can someone who really ever believed that Jesus in the only Savoir, 'say I don't want that salvation, I want to go to hell'? He said He would never leave us or forsake us, He's the Good Shepard. Sheep stray following green grass, they lay down and sleep and the flock moves on while they are sleeping. They look around and don't know where the flock has gone the Shepard will go find that sheep and put him/her on His shoulders and rescue them from themselves.

Blessings to you, St. Francis de Sales

 

[Deborah13]

Either 'justified' doesn't mean 'to show one as righteous'

So just how much showing is necessary to be justified?

 

[farouk]

Either 'justified' doesn't mean 'to show one as righteous'

So just how much showing is necessary to be justified?

Deborah13:

In the end it's a Godward thing, right?

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Paul and James mean two different things by the word "works", so don't contradict.

I don't know about that.
They both use Abraham as their example and the 'works' of Abraham.
The Law of Moses didn't exist at the time of Abraham. So he wasn't talking about the Law, he must have been talking about 'doings', I think.

 

[Deborah13]

"Was not Abraham our father [imputed actual righteousness by God] by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?"

"And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot [imputed actual righteousness by God] by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?"

Does this accurately portray your view?

Yes, I think so. We also know that Abraham was found righteous before this when he first received the Words of the Lord and trusted God to leave where he was and go to that place I call 'there' and he did know where 'there' was.

It was his belief (faith) that showed itself by just trusting God. If he hadn't gone there he would not have been trusting God.

Did he trust God when he took the handmaid Hagar? I think not. But I don't remember God condemning him for that. Did he loose his salvation? I think not.

 

[Deborah13]

Either 'justified' doesn't mean 'to show one as righteous'

So just how much showing is necessary to be justified?

Deborah13:

In the end it's a Godward thing, right?

Blessings.

Yes, I think that it is. Only He knows what is in our hearts. In His mercy and abundant grace He loves us. It pains Jesus to see one of His fall and He will lift them up. I truly believe this with all my heart.

Blessings, Deborah

 

[farouk]

"Was not Abraham our father [imputed actual righteousness by God] by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?"

"And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot [imputed actual righteousness by God] by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?"

Does this accurately portray your view?

Yes, I think so. We also know that Abraham was found righteous before this when he first received the Words of the Lord and trusted God to leave where he was and go to that place I call 'there' and he did know where 'there' was.

It was his belief (faith) that showed itself by just trusting God. If he hadn't gone there he would not have been trusting God.

Did he trust God when he took the handmaid Hagar? I think not. But I don't remember God condemning him for that. Did he loose his salvation? I think not.

Deborah13:

I think this is an interesting point, as well, by way of application. On the one hand in local churches we need a clear sense of what is right and wrong. On the other, we can remember the saying, that the best of men, are only men at best. Some Christians are going to have a past, the consequences of which will remain with them, and this may involve past 'zipper trouble', etc.

The need for great patience with people in a local church situation reflects God's great patience with His pilgrim people.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

The need for great patience with people in a local church situation reflects God's great patience with His pilgrim people

This is true, the church cannot allow some things to go on in the church because we know that it can spread and harm the church. But we can't be beating people over the head with the sin and think that will lead them to repent. I personally believe that it is only the love of God that can change a heart. So even when teaching against sin there always needs to be a big dose of Grace.

We have to have patience with the unbeliever, as well and let the Gospel, the Words of the Lord, do their work in renewing the mind and the Holy Spirit do His job of convicting them of their unbelief. We are not the Savior, just the bearer of Good News.

 

[chessman]

Note: A thread on OSAS that has made it to more than 478 posts without getting locked! Way to go guys. Stick to the Scripture and even discuss its meaning (specifically) and leave all the name calling, mis-representation of other members and disrespectful comments out of the A&T section and it flows a LOT better and has valuable Apologetic content.
If anyone’s interested, here’s a working (draft thru post #187) summary of the Scripture content that I put together. I’m still working through this thread but I thought I would post this prior to it reaching 500 posts.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Based on what the scriptures indicate, OSAS is hard to follow. Consider the following texts in their context and what they say about the subject at hand.

Romans 11:
(which was written by Paul to all in Rome, God’s loved ones who were called to be holy from the nations who had also become the called who belong to Jesus the Anointed.)

13 Now, I want to address those of you who are people of the nations: Since I’m really an Apostle to the nations, I can glorify my service 14 if I can somehow make those of my own flesh jealous and save some of them. 15 Because, if throwing them away brought the world into a restored relationship [with God], what will taking them back mean, other than life for those who are dead? 16 For, if the first fruits are holy, so is the whole lump! And if the roots are holy, so are the branches!17 So, when some of the branches were broken off, you wild olives were grafted in and you became sharers of the fatness of the olive [tree’s] roots. 18 But, don’t cheer because those branches [were removed]; for if you find yourself cheering over that, remember that you don’t support the roots, they support you!19 Yet you can say, ‘Branches were broken off so I could be grafted in’ 20 … and that’s right! They were broken off because of a lack of faith; and you are there instead, because of your faith. But don’t think too much of yourselves… be afraid! 21 For, if God didn’t spare the natural branches, He won’t spare you either.22 So, recognize God’s kindness, as well as [His] willingness to remove. For a fact; those who stumbled were cut off, while you received God’s loving care… but only for as long as you stay in that [good relationship]. Otherwise, you’ll be pruned off too! 23 And if [the Jews] don’t continue in their disbelief, they will be grafted back in, because God can graft them back in again!

Luke 8/Matt 13

11 ‘Now, the illustration means this: The seed is the Word of God. 12 Those beside the road are those who hear, but the Slanderer comes and takes the Word from their hearts, to prevent them from believing and being saved.13 ‘Those that fall on the rocks, are those who hear and welcome the Word with joy, but because they don’t have any roots, they only believe for a season. And when seasons of testing come along, they pull away.14 ‘As for those who fall among thorns; These are the ones who have heard, but because of their daily concerns, such as [seeking] wealth and the pleasures of living, they are choked out and fail to produce.15 ‘But [those that fall] on the good soil have good and pure hearts; and after hearing the word, they remember and continue to bear fruit.
18 ‘So now, listen to the [meaning of the] illustration of the farmer who planted: 19 Whenever someone hears about the Kingdom, but doesn’t understand it, the wicked one comes and snatches away what has been planted in his heart. This one was planted beside the road. 20 ‘As for the one that was planted among the rocks; He’s the one who hears the word and quickly accepts it with joy. 21 But because he has no roots, he’s just here for a short time. For, when hard times or persecution come along because of the Word, he’s immediately trapped. 22 ‘As for the one planted among the thistles; This one hears the word, but the concerns of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke-out the Word and he doesn’t produce fruit. 23 ‘But, as for the one planted on good soil; He hears the Word, understands it, and actually puts out fruit… this one a hundred, that one sixty, and the other thirty.’

- See the words of Jesus. The Rocky soil received the Word with joy, was "here" as a christian (follower of Christ), then of his own will turned away.


Galatians: (written by Paul to the Ecclesia (called out ones) of Galatia)

16 I tell you this: If you keep walking by the Breath, you won’t do anything that your flesh desires. 17 For, what the flesh wants is at odds with what the Breath wants, and the Breath is at odds with the flesh – they are in opposition to each other – so you don’t do the things that you may like to do. 18 And if the Breath is leading you, you aren’t under the Law.19 Now, the things that the flesh does are known. They include sexual immorality, uncleanness, unseemly acts, 20 worshiping idols, involvement in the occult, hatred, quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness, divisions, sects, 21 envying, getting drunk, wild partying, and things like that. I’m warning you now as I’ve warned you before, that those who do such things won’t inherit God’s Kingdom.22 However, the fruitage of [God’s] Breath is love, joy, peace, patience, caring, goodness, faith, 23 reasonableness, and self-control… and there are no laws against such things. 24 But those who belong to the Anointed Jesus have hung their flesh on the pole, along with its passions and desires. 25 So if we’re living by [God’s] Breath, then let’s walk in the Breath… 26 don’t be conceited, and [don’t] challenge or envy one another!
Chapter 6
1 Brothers, if anyone is ever caught up in doing bad things, those of you who have the Breath should try to restore that person in a reasonable way, as you keep an eye on yourselves so you aren’t tempted also………… 7 Now, don’t make any mistake when it comes to this: You can’t mock God! Because, whatever a person is planting, is what he’s going to harvest. 8 So, if he’s planting [the desires] of his own flesh, he will harvest decay from the flesh. And if he’s planting things that have to do with [God’s] Breath, he’ll harvest life in the age. 9 So, let’s not misbehave… let’s keep on doing what’s right until that time comes, because we’ll harvest what we deserve if we don’t tire out.

Ephesians 5: (written to Christians as well)
Become imitators of God as His loved children, 2 and keep on walking in love, as the Anointed One loved you and gave himself up for you as an offering… a sweet smelling sacrifice to God. 3 Don’t allow sexual immorality or any type of uncleanness or greediness to be even mentioned among you, as would be expected from holy people. 4 Nor [should you share in] shameful conduct, foolishness, or dirty jokes (which are all unbecoming), but rather, in giving thanks. 5 Because, you already recognize and know that all those who are immoral, unclean, and greedy (which really amounts to being idol worshipers) won’t have any inheritance in the Kingdom of God and the Anointed One.6 Don’t allow anyone to seduce you into using empty words. For, it’s because of things like this that the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. 7 So, don’t join in with them, 8 because; although you were once dark, you are now light in the Lord. So, keep walking as children of light!9 The fruitage of light is every sort of goodness, righteousness, and truth… 10 things that prove to be pleasing to the Lord. 11 So, don’t share in the unproductive deeds of darkness, but speak out against them. 12 It’s shameful to talk about things that are only done in private, 13 because everything that the light speaks against is being exposed, and all the things that are being made known are the light. 14 That’s why he says, ‘Wake up, you who are sleeping, and lift yourselves from among the dead; then the Anointed One will shine upon you.’15 Therefore, pay close attention to the way you’re walking, so it’s not like those who are foolish, but as those who are wise. 16 Buy time for yourselves, because these are wicked days… 17 don’t be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 And don’t be getting drunk on wine, which leads down an unsavory path. Rather, fill yourselves with the Breath [of God].

1 Thessalonians:
1 Finally, brothers; We ask and urge you by the Lord Jesus, to follow the path of the things you learned from us and to keep pleasing God. Although you’re already doing this, you must do it even more so! 2 You know the orders that we gave you through the Lord Jesus, 3 that; What God wants is [for you] to be made holy and to stay free from sexual immorality. 4 You should each learn how to take control of yourselves in holiness and honor… 5 not in passionate desires like those nations who don’t know God! 6 Nobody should overstep the limits or take advantage of his brother in this matter, for the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we warned you before and explained completely. 7 Why, God didn’t call us to uncleanness, but to holiness! 8 So, you who [choose to] disregard this [warning] aren’t disregarding a man, but The God who put His Holy Breath in you.

- this Thessalonian text contains a warning from Paul to Christian that had the Holy Spirit in them. Paul warns them to stay free from sexual immorality and not to disregard the commandment of God. He tells them that they who have been given the God’s Holy Spirit could CHOOSE to disregard God’s warnings and not stay free from sexual immorality.

- the texts says nothing about being saved, BUT when placed into the overall biblical context consider that repeatedly the writer of this text said the following: Now, the things that the flesh does are known. They include sexual immorality, uncleanness, unseemly acts, worshiping idols, involvement in the occult, hatred, quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness, divisions, sects, envying, getting drunk, wild partying, and things like that. I’m warning you now as I’ve warned you before, that those who do such things won’t inherit God’s Kingdom.


-----------------------------

It was my goal to use scripture in the context of where it was written to speak out about those who come to believe in the gospel of Jesus, are "here" in the fold of Jesus sheep for a while, then turn away from the Lord into sin. The texts speak for themselves and what they clearly indicate is the fact that following Jesus and having faith in Him is a choice. It is a choice that can be made, and it is a choice that can be forsaken. As long as the sheep listen to the shephard's voice and follow Him, they are protected and no one is able to snatch them from Him, but should the sheep wander from the shephard and not harken to His voice, they could find themselves in a world of danger.

I have heard the argument that if, "a christian cannot be lost after becoming a christian because there is no way that he could be saved again since Jesus' will not be sacrificed again." This statement deserves attention. In order to address it, I'll just reference what the Bible says a believer who sins must do. See 1 John:

5 And the message that we heard from Him, which we want to announce to you is: God is light and there isn’t any darkness in Him!
6 However, if we say that we’re sharing something with Him and we just keep on walking in the darkness, we’re lying, and we aren’t doing what’s right. 7 But if we’re walking in the light (since He’s in the light), we will share with each other, and then the blood of His Son Jesus will cleanse us of all our sins.
8 Now, if we say that we don’t have any sins, we’re misleading ourselves and there’s no truth in us. 9 But if we admit our sins, He will forgive our sins and wash away all our unrighteousness, because He is faithful and righteous. 10 So, if we ever say that we haven’t sinned, we’re making Him out as a liar, and His words aren’t in us.
Chapter 2
1 My little children; I’m writing these things to you, in order to keep you from committing any sins. Yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have someone righteous who is our advocate with the Father, Jesus the Anointed One. 2 He’s the sacrifice that begs forgiveness for our sins.

The christian who sins must admit it and turn from it. According to the text, Jesus has your back!