John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[dirtfarmer]

Our "old body" will be raised from the dead, but it will be changed.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:51-54


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

It is not our old body that is resurrected but our "glorified body" with Spirit as life of that body, not blood, that will be resurrected. The old body has blood flowing through it veins that provides life for that body. The "glorified body" is a body of flesh and bone with Spirit as the life of that body. If you read the verse before verse 51, verse 50, it is stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Papa Zoom]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

It is not our old body that is resurrected but our "glorified body" with Spirit as life of that body, not blood, that will be resurrected. The old body has blood flowing through it veins that provides life for that body. The "glorified body" is a body of flesh and bone with Spirit as the life of that body. If you read the verse before verse 51, verse 50, it is stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

I hope I at least get to keep muh beerd. It tooked me long time to grow and I have critter friends in there.

 

[Pegasus]

I hope I at least get to keep muh beerd. It tooked me long time to grow and I have critter friends in there.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Jesus had a beerd too.

 

[Papa Zoom]

So I wonder if YCLYSP believe that if a believer denies Christ they can still find repentance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 John 2:18-26 [NIV]
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

I disagree with your view on eternal security, but agree with your concern and rejection of a 'saved' God-hater. I take my que on this matter from the above quote from 1 John. It says "but they did not really belong to us." I do not throw that out in the usual trite defense that it is often used. It is a very real thing for me. Of the people that I grew up with, only one lived to adulthood (besides myself). The person who led me to Christ, who reached out to an atheist gang member, eventually abandoned his wife and children to become a gay activist and one of the first same-sex marriages in Massachusetts. So it is more than some hypothetical 'what if' to me. It is a very real thing. Yet I know with the same certainty, that when I was beaten down and at my lowest ... when I was ready to walk away, God intervened and would not allow me to 'curse him and die' (as Job's wife suggested). So I know, experientially, EXACTLY what is required for ME to lose my salvation. I could not do it, even when I was willing.

So this is an issue that I am personally invested in and torn over. From 1 John, I take away the reality that I am called to work out MY SALVATION with fear and trembling ... I have no hope to really see into the heart and soul of another to know the truth about their salvation. A faith can be so battered that to all outward appearances, it is not merely dead, it never lived ... then the Holy Spirit can suddenly fan the flames and re-ignite a blaze. A life can appear to be so full of faith that you think "I want what they have" and suddenly, nothing was what it appeared to be. I have given up even trying to guess about the faith of another. My new mantra is "I am not their mother". Good or bad. I can "give a reason for the hope that is within me" and I can share my thoughts and experiences, but I have no idea what soil is good or bad. Whose heart is transformed or deceitful.

Back to 1 John. Over and over, the bible paints a picture of "us and them". Two different groups that are superficially mixed, but seem to be headed in different directions. (v.19) "THEY went out from US", and (v.20) "But you" ... have an anointing and know the truth. That's a pretty fundamental difference between US (stayed, anointed, truth) and THEM (left, not anointed, liars).

Then we come to 1 John 2:26 "I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray."
Look at why he is giving all of these warnings. The anointing remains in US (v.27) but the need is to be wary of THEM ... the false teachers.

So for me, the issue is to never forget that there is an US and a THEM and 'US' has the anointing and responsibility to be on guard against the mischief of 'THEM'. Until we get to Heaven and God clearly sorts US from THEM, we cannot tell who God has chosen to forgive. That is God's business, and not mine. I can just maintain a healthy skepticism about anyone who does not care to please God and point them to some of the many US and THEM scriptures if they ever ask. Ultimately, making disciples means introducing people to the God that introduced himself to me. Their relationship is ultimately between them. Who am I to judge another man's servant?

Look at verse 24 and 25 of this passage you are using to defend OSAS:

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:24-25)

As you point out, John is contrasting those who have denied Christ, and those who have not and who have the anointing. The clear warning to those who have the anointing (believers) is to let the word they heard in the beginning continue in them, because if they don't they will not continue in the Son and the Father.

Now hyper-grace argues that not continuing in the Son and the Father is a reference to losing manifest fellowship with God, not a reference to losing salvation/ eternal life. But verse 25 shows us that John is indeed talking about continuing in eternal life, not just manifest fellowship with God.

John addresses this issue again later in the letter:

"...Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20 NASB)

"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-112 NASB)

Having eternal life is having Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ IS eternal life. That's why if you don't have Jesus Christ because He no longer abides in you because you did not continue in what you first heard, you do not have eternal life. But OSAS has it so even if you are no longer in Christ, who is eternal life, and cut out of Christ the vine, you somehow still have the eternal life you are separated from. That's not what John says.

Then to complicate things even more, some theologians explain John's obvious non-OSAS teaching by creating the 'two gospel' doctrine to explain that John is talking to the Jews who operate under a gospel of kingdom works where you can lose your salvation, as opposed to the gentiles who operate under a gospel of grace, not works, and who can't lose their salvation. But as has been pointed out, that can not be true as evidenced by other scripture, and the simple fact that there is no salvation possible under a gospel of works anyway. Never has been, never will be.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So I wonder if YCLYSP believe that if a believer denies Christ they can still find repentance.

Not if the ex-believer has stubbornly resisted all efforts by God to bring them back to repentance and God has turned them over to their unbelief, closing the door forever for the possibility of them being saved:

"4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB bold mine)

Of course, it's argued that 'enlightened' in the passage doesn't mean salvation, but the author shows us later in the letter that their 'enlightenment' was indeed salvation:

"32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one." (Hebrews 10:32-34 NASB bold mine)

Those who have been enlightened unto salvation, as the Hebrews were, ultimately can not come back to repentance if they fall away. You only get to lose salvation one time.

 

[GodsGrace]

So I wonder if YCLYSP believe that if a believer denies Christ they can still find repentance.

I guess the p stands for people.
This is new.
For me.
Did You make it up?

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

It is not our old body that is resurrected but our "glorified body" with Spirit as life of that body, not blood, that will be resurrected. The old body has blood flowing through it veins that provides life for that body. The "glorified body" is a body of flesh and bone with Spirit as the life of that body. If you read the verse before verse 51, verse 50, it is stated that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Your body that died, will be raised from the dead, but it will be different; it will be changed.

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

The body you have will die and be resurrected from the dead. It, the body that died, will be changed.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:42-46

• It will be different, but it will have flesh and bone.

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” John 20:26-27

The same body that was beaten and crucified, was resurrected from the dead, in which He still had the scars on His body.


Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” Luke 24:39

• It will be further clothed with immortality.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 2 Corinthians 5:2-4

• You will be able to eat food.

12 Jesus said to them, “Come and eat breakfast.” Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, “Who are You?”—knowing that it was the Lord. 13 Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish.14 This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead.15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?”
John 20:12-15

• You will have an immortal body.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

The body you have will doe and be resurrected from the dead. It will be changed.

It will be different, but it will have flesh and bone.

It will be further clothed with immortality.

You will be able to eat food.

You will have an immortal body.


JLB

It will be like Jesus' glorified body after the resurrection.

 

[JLB]

It will be like Jesus' glorified body after the resurrection.

Always refreshing to hear from you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I never stated that we would be saved by our life.

Nathan,
It's okay to say that we are saved by OUR life.
Nothing wrong with it.

I also hear say that we are saved by the Lord's righteousness and not OUR righteousness. This is also incorrect.

We are saved by OUR righteousness. So then I hear that our righteousness is like filthy rags to God. I love it when one verse is taken out of the N.T. to prove something or other. One of the most important things one learns about hermeneutics is that this is NOT to be done and every scripture must support the general idea of the N.T. Otherwise, we can make the N.T. say whatever we want it to --- which it seems to me is the case here with OSAS.

What does righteous mean anyway?
And how is its meaning accomplished?

I mean, does Jesus have to do ALL the work???

 

[GodsGrace]

Always refreshing to hear from you.

"Like"
Same here...

 

[GodsGrace]

A discipleship "program" is what Jesus and His followers would call "life". We are all called to disciple. Each in our own way, but the modern day "church" is nothing more than an organization. An organization will never produce an organism.

I personally disagree with the OSAS people encouraging believers to just believe and show up for church. I know quite a few OSAS believers that genuinely desire for others to serve God. That's why I do not look so harsh on the OSAS believers.

Some do, I'll give you that. Sickens me to death. But its also rampant in church's(I never liked using that word in this manner) that believe in full on loss of salvation. Look at the Catholic church for example. I know many of them, on both sides.

OSAS is less of a doctrinal issue that works by salvation. It is simply a matter of view. The only thing, ONLY thing I see detrimental, is the believer who has fallen into the life of continual sin again, who then when drawn by the Spirit of God to stop sin, continues on in sin. Then, when they get so engrossed in sin, they look at the Faith and think - God can never save me, I must have never been saved to begin with even though I said a prayer or walked an isle. They read ALL the passages that deal with sinners not inheriting the kingdom, of them being cast into hell.

Then that person thinks all of their years of faith have been in vain. And while they are doubting their selves, they move on to doubting God. Then, it breaks my heart to think it, they start doubting the Holy Spirits ability to save them - to keep them. Doubt is a real thing people. Wake up. It is what satan used to lure Eve in the Garden.

That doubt is what the Bible warns over and over about. If you think it cannot happen, just because it has not happened to you or anyone you know, you only fool yourselves. I know it can happen. I have seen it happen. It almost happened to me.

Interesting.

The other thing that could happen to your examples above is that they begin to be convinced that once they are saved they can never lose their salvation.

It's looking for verses that support YOUR belief,
instead of BELIEVING what the veses say.

If one is always saved, he can do what he wants to.

Most OSAS people are very spiritual and I know this is not why they have come to this belief---however, it is possible.

And wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

The sheep belong to the sheperd (present tense) not belonged (past tense).
If it was a typo, my bad.....

Have you ever seen a lost sheep?
He ends up dead.
Unless he finds the fold again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because something is considered "new" does that automatically suggest the view is wrong?

How many times in my life at least have I read a Scripture and then a light comes on, and I see it completely different then the way I did before. Does the new way of digesting Scripture wrong? Or was I enlightened by the Father and was given new revelation in the passage(s)?

Same can be asked about this too?

Because a "new wind of doctrine" is considered just that, new. How can we so easily say, it's new therefore it's not correct or decide not to consider the aspect. We as people are always revolving, why wouldn't the same be true in Scripture and spiritual revelations as well?

Atonement,
Yes, that light could go on. This is OK for US. It's something personal between us and God. He gives to each of us what we need.

But it is not true for theologians. They must see all the light if they're to do an exegesis on a verse or passage. They see the truth before they set pen to paper.

So, yes, I'd say that "something new" is wrong.
First of all, John said that nothing is to be added to the word of God.

ADDED. Did John Calvin add something that was not there before?
He sure did. He came up with a theory never heard of in the 1,500 years before his penning those words, which have divided Christianity, BTW, and with an untruth.

So, tell me, were all the theologians before Calvin right,
Or was Calvin right?

 

[Atonement]

I

Atonement,
Yes, that light could go on. This is OK for US. It's something personal between us and God. He gives to each of us what we need.

But it is not true for theologians. They must see all the light if they're to do an exegesis on a verse or passage. They see the truth before they set pen to paper.

So, yes, I'd say that "something new" is wrong.
First of all, John said that nothing is to be added to the word of God.

ADDED. Did John Calvin add something that was not there before?
He sure did. He came up with a theory never heard of in the 1,500 years before his penning those words, which have divided Christianity, BTW, and with an untruth.

So, tell me, were all the theologians before Calvin right,
Or was Calvin right?

Thank you for the reply and your opinion on such matters. Unless it can be proven throughout Scripture, and thus far it hasn't. It's the interpretation of Scripture that everyone is debating. One side sees it one way, and another side sees it another way. To say one side is "wrong" then you are putting yourself in a position that can prove without a shadow of doubt that your side/position is right!! This is what everyone is attempting in this thread but unsuccessful at this point..

 

[GodsGrace]

I


Thank you for the reply and your opinion on such matters. Unless it can be proven throughout Scripture, and thus far it hasn't. It's the interpretation of Scripture that everyone is debating. One side sees it one way, and another side sees it another way. To say one side is "wrong" then you are putting yourself in a position that can prove without a shadow of doubt that your side/position is right!! This is what everyone is attempting in this thread but unsuccessful at this point..

Yeah. I know what's going on here.

So we can't both be right.
So what to do?
Maybe what I said might be of help?
Who is right:
1,500 years of theology, or Mr. Calvin?

What about the early church Fathers?
Do you have any respect for them at all?
§Do they deserve any respect?

I like to use the example of John Kennedy.
1963 - 2017
Only 54 years instead of 1,500 !!!
But who knows more about him?
His family, family's friends, friends, friends of friends,
OR some guy who wants to write a book about him and reads about him??

I'd say it would be the first group.
Would you agree?

Yes. This is a trick question...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Unless it can be proven throughout Scripture, and thus far it hasn't. It's the interpretation of Scripture that everyone is debating.

Once a person gets past the OSAS indoctrination it's as plain as day in scripture what will happen to the person who stops believing.

The interpretation of the passages that OSAS uses to prove their side nullifies the passages that non-OSAS uses to prove their side.
But the interpretation of the passages non-OSAS uses to prove their side DOESN'T nullify the supposed OSAS passages.
A simple check of that will prove that's true. OSAS is the doctrine that causes contradiction, but so many seem to be okay with that and will blindly stick to their OSAS beliefs.

Perhaps the main problem confronting OSASer's is they don't understand the true non-OSAS argument to begin with. For example, I see over and over and over again the same people bringing up the same false notion that non-OSAS is about being saved by your works, even after it is explained to them that non-OSAS is about the necessity to continue to believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

Once a person gets past the OSAS indoctrination it's as plain as day in scripture what will happen if one stops believing.

The interpretation of the passages that OSAS uses to prove their side nullifies the passages that non-OSAS uses to prove their side.
But the interpretation of the passages non-OSAS uses to prove their side DOESN'T nullify the supposed OSAS passages.
A simple check of that will prove that's true. OSAS is the doctrine that causes contradiction, but so many seem to be okay with that and will blindly stick to their OSAS beliefs.

The main problem with OSASer's is they don't understand the true non-OSAS argument to begin with. I see over and over and over again the same people bringing up the same false notion that non-OSAS is about being saved by your works.

"Like"

It IS proven throughout scripture but it cannot be accepted.
I also see the idea that this side is always charged with wanting to be saved by works.

Why would the N.T. writers EXHORT us to keep on, hold onto, hold fast, do not fall away, keep abiding in, etc. UNLESS it was very important?

I wish this would be addressed...



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