Bible Study KJVO and the Strongs Concordance

[Dorothy Mae]

Nope, they are correct. Monogenes refers to Christ as God made human not his divine nature which by definition is uncreated. To assert otherwise is to assert that Christ is a created God and that simply will not fly.

Not at all. None of us are created. We are begotten. Adam and Eve were not begotten but instead created.

“God made human” misses the point of the conception. No one who saw Jesus in his lifetime has any trouble knowing he was human. No one. They struggled with him being divine. That we need terms to assure us of that which no one has a problem believing erases the point where we DO have a challenge. They shout from the housetops “Jesus was human!!” whereas the whole world says, “is that suppose to tell us something we didn’t know?”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I looked up monogenes. Pretty interesting. It can be correctly translated as “only legitimate son” which we can assume no translator wants to do. “One and only son” is wrong because others in the Bible are described as sons of God. The best representation of the concept is “begotten” which while old, has never been replaced by a modern word. There are old English words for which no new word exists. “Begotten” is one of these. Best to learn it’s meaning rather than change the idea the writer was presenting.

 

[Free]

I looked up monogenes. Pretty interesting. It can be correctly translated as “only legitimate son” which we can assume no translator wants to do. “One and only son” is wrong because others in the Bible are described as sons of God. The best representation of the concept is “begotten” which while old, has never been replaced by a modern word. There are old English words for which no new word exists. “Begotten” is one of these. Best to learn it’s meaning rather than change the idea the writer was presenting.

I posted this earlier but you may have missed it:

In the NT, the KJV uses "begotten" 15 times. In John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Heb 11:17; 1 John 4:9 are the only instances in the KJV that use the phrases "only begotten of the Father," "only begotten Son," and "only begotten." Those six times are also the only times the Greek word monogenes is used in reference to Christ and it means "unique," "only one," or something very similar along those lines.

It is also worth noting that the KJV uses monogenes only nine times--the six times mentioned above and these three times:

Luk 7:12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.

Luk 8:42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.

Luk 9:38 And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.

The Greek word translated as begotten which means (among many different meanings), "conceived," is gennao.

To sum then, the newer versions are correct and you are the one changing the meaning of begotten in John 1:18 to mean conception. It simply means "only one," without the idea of conception; even the KJV agrees. John 1:18 is therefore speaking of the eternal begetting of the Son by the Father, the only Son of God who is a part of the Trinity. The physical conceiving of the God-man by the Holy Spirit is spoken of in other passages.

 

[for_his_glory]

Who is there on earth who has the original documents and understands that language?

The ancient manuscripts that the Prophets and Apostles wrote were either written on papyrus paper or animal skins as many no longer exist because of age, but yet there are many fragments that have been found and translated into many different languages from the original Aramaic language that Jesus and the Apostles spoke. The ancient manuscripts of the Bible we have today are exact copies of the originals that have accurately preserved the text of the originals throughout the centuries. Anyone can do a search on this.

You are missing my whole point though. If you are going to make accusations you need to show factual proof.

 

[for_his_glory]

Please stop saying I justify her because I see the vitriol response of those against her as wrong. I might tell an angry mob about to linch a thief they are wrong, but it doesn’t mean that I support the thief. It isn’t a case of “either you’re with us or you’re with the terrorists.”

Her words are not responded to in accordance with the teachings of Jesus. Derisive adjectives are used. Actual disagreements are only linked to. Except her teaching that texts used to translate newer versions are faulty, what accusation of particulars do you bring. Btw, she’s not only one who has surmised these “older” ones have a dubious history, at least one.

If you believe what this lady has written is false then why are you defending her,

 

[for_his_glory]

How did he become deity?

Jesus always has been before the foundation of the world. It's all explained in John 1:1-18.

Please study these scriptures below that pertain to the deity of Christ Jesus.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[for_his_glory]

I think it’s Jaybo. He accused me of misunderstanding begotten which leads me to think the opposite is true. Am I in error?

begotten is a past participle meaning to bring a child (Jesus) into existence by the process of reproduction as being begotten of the Father and not made by a man and a woman as we read in Luke 1:26-38.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[kiwimac]

Christ, as the 2nd person of the trinity is eternal. As Jesus of Nazareth he has existed since c.2 BCE, IKt is to that portion of his life that monogenes applies,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The ancient manuscripts that the Prophets and Apostles wrote were either written on papyrus paper or animal skins as many no longer exist because of age, but yet there are many fragments that have been found and translated into many different languages from the original Aramaic language that Jesus and the Apostles spoke. The ancient manuscripts of the Bible we have today are exact copies of the originals that have accurately preserved the text of the originals throughout the centuries. Anyone can do a search on this.

You are missing my whole point though. If you are going to make accusations you need to show factual proof.

I have searched these matters fully and you fit the wrong language. They were written in Greek so
Aramaic copies cannot be copies of the originals. Wrong language.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

begotten is a past participle meaning to bring a child (Jesus) into existence by the process of reproduction as being begotten of the Father and not made by a man and a woman as we read in Luke 1:26-38.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Sounds good

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus always has been before the foundation of the world. It's all explained in John 1:1-18.

Please study these scriptures below that pertain to the deity of Christ Jesus.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

Thanks! I was asking the poster who refused to see what begotten means, but you could not know that by reading my post. I know Jesus was the only begotten Son of God but was with God and was God before the worlds were made.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If you believe what this lady has written is false then why are you defending her,

Because my brothers or sisters here attack her as a person using insulting adjectives. She isn’t the only one who sees the Received Text as closer to the originals and is suspicious of these manuscripts that have removed references to Christ deity and instructions pertaining to righteous God pleasing living as seemingly a target.

But let me ask you, what damage does she do? I know of ministries and teachings whose false doctrine does a lot of damage.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

No matter what translation one prefers to use we have to keep in mind that only the Holy Spirit can teach us in all truths. No matter how people like to discredit different translations as to me is a waste of time among the Christian community as we need to be bringing the salvation message in the Gospels to a dark world that needs to see the light of Christ shine through us. It is only through the unity of love, even if we disagree with others, that others will see Christ in us.

1Peter 4:9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
1Peter 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Amen!! To be truthful, we are only a discussion site here. When we all agree, the discussion is over. If we started a thread where only those who agree can post, it will be short lived and boring. In real life we can demonstrate our love easily working and playing side by side.

And here we have the rare challenge of character school. Since we are from the anglo american culture, we’re not taught the christlike way of debating but here we can learn it. How do we talk to those who disagree with us??? Public figures teach us to slap them in face figuratively or physically. How should we respond? That’s the lesson here.

But start a thread where only those who agree with the post they are responding do can post. I’m a scientist. It’s a good experiment.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I posted this earlier but you may have missed it:

In the NT, the KJV uses "begotten" 15 times. In John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Heb 11:17; 1 John 4:9 are the only instances in the KJV that use the phrases "only begotten of the Father," "only begotten Son," and "only begotten." Those six times are also the only times the Greek word monogenes is used in reference to Christ and it means "unique," "only one," or something very similar along those lines.

It is also worth noting that the KJV uses monogenes only nine times--the six times mentioned above and these three times:

Luk 7:12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.

Luk 8:42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.

Luk 9:38 And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.

The Greek word translated as begotten which means (among many different meanings), "conceived," is gennao.

To sum then, the newer versions are correct and you are the one changing the meaning of begotten in John 1:18 to mean conception. It simply means "only one," without the idea of conception; even the KJV agrees. John 1:18 is therefore speaking of the eternal begetting of the Son by the Father, the only Son of God who is a part of the Trinity. The physical conceiving of the God-man by the Holy Spirit is spoken of in other passages.

I am not changing the meaning at all. The prefix “mono” means one. The suffix “genes” refers to actual genetics. Hence the terms means, and unbiased reference agrees, the only one genetically springing from the person following. It does not mean one and only. It means only genetically sprung from.

I repeat, Adam is called the son of God. That must mean Jesus is actually NOT the one and only son of God. Adam was not begotten but he was a son of God. It fits perfectly.

It is true that Jesus is unique. That is because he is the only begotten son of God. It’s not because he’s the only son of God because he’s not the only son of God.

 

[kiwimac]

Because my brothers or sisters here attack her as a person using insulting adjectives. She isn’t the only one who sees the Received Text as closer to the originals and is suspicious of these manuscripts that have removed references to Christ deity and instructions pertaining to righteous God pleasing living as seemingly a target.

But let me ask you, what damage does she do? I know of ministries and teachings whose false doctrine does a lot of damage.

She lies about the motivations of other Christians; She denies that modern translations are the very word of God; She brings Christians into disrepute.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

She lies about the motivations of other Christians; She denies that modern translations are the very word of God; She brings Christians into disrepute.

Can you give examples of the first?
Do you have a quote?
She’s not responsible for what others do if they refuse to follow Jesus’ teachings. Most of the prophets said things that caused dissension. As did Jesus, Shall we only say that which is popular?

 

[Free]

I am not changing the meaning at all. The prefix “mono” means one.

Correct.

The suffix “genes” refers to actual genetics.

Incorrect. The Greek word is ginomai and means many things but “genetics” is not one of them.

Hence the terms means, and unbiased reference agrees, the only one genetically springing from the person following. It does not mean one and only. It means only genetically sprung from.

I’m not sure what “unbiased sources” you are referring to, especially since there is no such thing. I have shown that the KJV even agrees with me—“only” and “only child”—in the only three instances where monogenes is not used of Jesus.

I repeat, Adam is called the son of God. That must mean Jesus is actually NOT the one and only son of God. Adam was not begotten but he was a son of God. It fits perfectly.

Context, context, context. Jesus is the only or unique Son of God. That is what the context of Scripture shows. If we use your understanding then the disciples were wrong, and wrong a lot, by calling Jesus “the Son of God.” We know from context that Jesus is a Son of God in a very different way then the any other who is referred to as a son of God, hence why he is the Son of God. Here, too, the KJV agrees with me.

It is true that Jesus is unique. That is because he is the only begotten son of God. It’s not because he’s the only son of God because he’s not the only son of God.

And begotten means “unique” or “only,” as I’ve shown using the KJV.

 

[kiwimac]

Can you give examples of the first?
Do you have a quote?
She’s not responsible for what others do if they refuse to follow Jesus’ teachings. Most of the prophets said things that caused dissension. As did Jesus, Shall we only say that which is popular?

Here is one

p. 368 -- "Did Trench's interest in 'symbolism and occult significance' lead him to place a serpent on the title page of the book ... (On the Authorized Version of the New Testament In Connection With some Recent Proposals for its Revision)? To place a serpent on one's book is bad enough, but Trench's serpent is the occult symbol of the ouroboros ... a serpent forming a circle and swallowing its tail one of the favorite symbols of Satanist H. P. Blavatsky." [italics and bold type by Gail Riplinger]

This comment is followed by a typical Gail Riplinger three-page diatribe regarding the Ouroboros concept, and its use in occult and Masonic symbolism, etc.

FACT #1: Trench had nothing to do with the imposition of the symbol on the title page of his book. This was the publisher's logo, and nothing more. Therefore, Gail Riplinger's claim is inapplicable to Trench, despite her claims in that regard. See other books by the same publisher with the same logo present (e.g., John Savage, The Modern Revolutionary History and Literature of Ireland(1856)
<https://archive.org/details/andmodernrevolu01savagoog/page/n8/mode/2up>
, or The Works of the Late Edgar Allan Poe (1856) <http://www.eapoe.org/works/EDITIONS/grvolIV.htm>.


FACT #2: The snake pictured in the publisher's logo is not the Ouroboros (correctly defined by Gail Riplinger as "a serpent forming a circle and swallowing its tail"). Rather, one finds the tail of the snake in the logo very much present, and not being swallowed or even bitten by the head of the snake! The tail of the snake in fact extends beyond the head, and is wrapped around the first portion of the snake's body. Thus, the publisher's logo is not the Ouroboros, and therefore Gail Riplinger's entire diatribe becomes inapplicable, even when applied to the publisher and not Trench!

Here is another:

"...
p.413 -- "[H. K.] Moulton calls Jesus 'The carpenter's Son' ... This denial of the deity of Christ and the virgin birth matches his father's RV [Luke 2:33]

FACT: The father, W. F. Moulton certainly was on the RV 1881 committee. However, the phrase in question that Gail Riplinger alleges as supposedly being a "denial of the deity of Christ and the virgin birth" actually occurs in her own beloved KJV, Mt 13:55, "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary?"

Oh...and what exactly is Gail Riplinger railing about in the first place? Believe or not, a mere translational exercise in Moulton's A First Reader in New Testament Greek(London: Epworth, 1914), p.9: "Translate into Greek -- 1. The carpenter's Son is a stumbling-block to the Jews."

and another:

"...
pp.425-426: "The non-Jewish founder of the publisher, Thomas Nelson, is of Middle Eastern origin ... [with a] heathen heritage."

Gail Riplinger is talking about Sam Moore (original last name Ziady, which means "more"), former CEO of Thomas Nelson publishing, a former medical student who came to the US from Lebanon in 1950. Moore in fact is "a born-again Christian who began his career as a door-to-door Bible salesman in college" and whose "heroes" back in Beirut "were the American missionaries who ran his school."

For Gail Riplinger to claim that Moore's "Middle Eastern origin" implies a "heathen heritage" in total contradistinction to the record of Moore's own background (including a clear conversion experience at age 17) is not merely bordering upon slander, but in fact is "legally actionable" (to use one of Gail Riplinger's favorite phrases).

Finally, She is no prophet.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Here is one



Here is another:



and another:



Finally, She is no prophet.

Valid criticism except does she claim to be a prophet?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Correct.


Incorrect. The Greek word is ginomai and means many things but “genetics” is not one of them.

No, the Greek is “Monogenes” as I said. An independent source says that’s what it means. Independent means no stake in the matter.

I’m not sure what “unbiased sources” you are referring to, especially since there is no such thing. I have shown that the KJV even agrees with me—“only” and “only child”—in the only three instances where monogenes is not used of Jesus.

No, the KJV agrees with me and says “only begotten.” I find it troubling that you refuse to admit this fact.

Context, context, context. Jesus is the only or unique Son of God. That is what the context of Scripture shows. If we use your understanding then the disciples were wrong, and wrong a lot, by calling Jesus “the Son of God.” We know from context that Jesus is a Son of God in a very different way then the any other who is referred to as a son of God, hence why he is the Son of God. Here, too, the KJV agrees with me.

You have no way to say HOW he was unique. “Monogenes” says how. I know the WAY he is unique. If you deny the begotten, how is he unique besides you saying so? Adam was also the son of God.

And begotten means “unique” or “only,” as I’ve shown using the KJV.

No, it means legitimate biologically. The KJV doesn’t not agree with you at all.