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Bible Study Question: Did Jesus Christ Have Two Natures?

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We are getting very close to arguing and a debate. Your words.... is very near debate, IMO.
Actually, there is nothing to debate.
Orthodox Christian belief includes the "dual" nature of Christ.
All other views (heterodox) were deemed to be in error by the only Christian Church in existence at the time.
The fact that God and what He does is beyond our understanding is not a warrant to make up our own "truth."
 
BY the way, I do not in any manner question your sincerity or faith.
Just wanted to make that clear.

Hi Jim. I know for sure that you don't question my faith. We are good friends and I count you right along with the others that I honor and hold in high esteem because of your love for God's Word. I love you! :hug
 
We might understand that Christology was "developed" over the course of nearly 500 years by some of the greatest minds on the planet, after the resurrection. It's obviously not easy subject matter.

Part of the problem some might have trouble understanding that Jesus was a 'real' human being, like us, is because He had no sin, and most automatically associate the 'human nature' as a sin nature. How human could a human be if they were sinless? Part of the "error" of the early debaters to this matter was the thought that if WE worked hard enough, and made the right decisions, we TOO can be sinless. That was an error of the early churches in their freewill postures.

Yes, Jesus was like us in every respect except for one very LARGE differentiating factor, that being WITHOUT SIN. I'd consider that difference to be massive comparative to everyone else prior or since.

It's problematic for any of us to even conceive of such a state, because we have never "experienced" what that is like. IF we even claim to "have," present tense have, no sin we are not even in truth. 1 John 1:8. And we are liars if we say we haven't sinned.

So, yeah, there are some ropes around this matter from our perspectives. How human can a sinless human really be? I'd guess as human as a sinless human could be.

Don't really see any other options. The fact that God Himself showed up in a "prepared human body, Fathered Directly by God Himself" can be considered nothing less than a GREAT MYSTERY, as the scriptures propose:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Although I appreciate the men who deliberated this matter for nearly 500 years they did cover their tracks with the fact that it is a great mystery, details notwithstanding. I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that Jesus was born of a woman, just like any human being is born, was raised as a human being, lived with human beings, WAS a human being. There is no question about that. IF we say Jesus was only Divine there are other problems that can arise from that sight.

It's very problematic without Jesus being a real human being, to claim that He really suffered, sacrificed, died, etc. I mean really, can a Divine Only Status partake of any of that? I don't think so.

We are told this about God. That God Is A Spirit. And that God Is Invisible. Col. 1:15, 1 Tim. 1:17, Heb. 11:27, John 4:24. How then can an Invisible Spirit suffer, sacrifice and die? Does that cover the state/status of Jesus? No. Jesus was human, was visible, had a body, sacrificed, suffered and died a very real physical death. No "Invisible Spirit," non human Divine Being could do any of that. All of this REQUIRED A PREPARED HUMAN BODY that was HUMAN.

So, saying Jesus was a human but with no human nature brings other problems. Did Jesus need to eat? Go to the bathroom? Work to feed Himself etc etc. Yes, He was also subject to do things HUMANS are required to do in a human body in order to live/survive.

That would appear to at least require the human nature to do so. Why would A Divine Invisible Spirit only need to do any of that? Being a human being comes with an obligation to do human things that requires the obligations of the human nature to do so. I'm pretty sure Jesus, as a human being, had to learn a lot of things about being human, just like we do. We have no record of Jesus hopping out of the womb and turning into an instant sage, able to speak and perform miracles at the snap of His Finger.

I can only say that the distinction between being a human sinner and a human without sin is an exceptionally wide gulf for us to really fathom. Being "like" us in every way except for that is a rather large exception.
 
We might understand that Christology was "developed" over the course of nearly 500 years by some of the greatest minds on the planet, after the resurrection. It's obviously not easy subject matter.

Part of the problem some might have trouble understanding that Jesus was a 'real' human being, like us, is because He had no sin, and most automatically associate the 'human nature' as a sin nature. How human could a human be if they were sinless? Part of the "error" of the early debaters to this matter was the thought that if WE worked hard enough, and made the right decisions, we TOO can be sinless. That was an error of the early churches in their freewill postures.

Yes, Jesus was like us in every respect except for one very LARGE differentiating factor, that being WITHOUT SIN. I'd consider that difference to be massive comparative to everyone else prior or since.

It's problematic for any of us to even conceive of such a state, because we have never "experienced" what that is like. IF we even claim to "have," present tense have, no sin we are not even in truth. 1 John 1:8. And we are liars if we say we haven't sinned.

So, yeah, there are some ropes around this matter from our perspectives. How human can a sinless human really be? I'd guess as human as a sinless human could be.

Don't really see any other options. The fact that God Himself showed up in a "prepared human body, Fathered Directly by God Himself" can be considered nothing less than a GREAT MYSTERY, as the scriptures propose:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Although I appreciate the men who deliberated this matter for nearly 500 years they did cover their tracks with the fact that it is a great mystery, details notwithstanding. I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that Jesus was born of a woman, just like any human being is born, was raised as a human being, lived with human beings, WAS a human being. There is no question about that. IF we say Jesus was only Divine there are other problems that can arise from that sight.

It's very problematic without Jesus being a real human being, to claim that He really suffered, sacrificed, died, etc. I mean really, can a Divine Only Status partake of any of that? I don't think so.

We are told this about God. That God Is A Spirit. And that God Is Invisible. Col. 1:15, 1 Tim. 1:17, Heb. 11:27, John 4:24. How then can an Invisible Spirit suffer, sacrifice and die? Does that cover the state/status of Jesus? No. Jesus was human, was visible, had a body, sacrificed, suffered and died a very real physical death. No "Invisible Spirit," non human Divine Being could do any of that. All of this REQUIRED A PREPARED HUMAN BODY that was HUMAN.

So, saying Jesus was a human but with no human nature brings other problems. Did Jesus need to eat? Go to the bathroom? Work to feed Himself etc etc. Yes, He was also subject to do things HUMANS are required to do in a human body in order to live/survive.

That would appear to at least require the human nature to do so. Why would A Divine Invisible Spirit only need to do any of that? Being a human being comes with an obligation to do human things that requires the obligations of the human nature to do so. I'm pretty sure Jesus, as a human being, had to learn a lot of things about being human, just like we do. We have no record of Jesus hopping out of the womb and turning into an instant sage, able to speak and perform miracles at the snap of His Finger.

I can only say that the distinction between being a human sinner and a human without sin is an exceptionally wide gulf for us to really fathom. Being "like" us in every way except for that is a rather large exception.

I think seeing that, " you can only recieve a nature from a father " would answer alot of questions.
I would agree there has been some wonderful minds shed light on scripture. I see also "where brilliance ends" revelation begins.
 
I think seeing that, " you can only recieve a nature from a father " would answer alot of questions.
I would agree there has been some wonderful minds shed light on scripture. I see also "where brilliance ends" revelation begins.
You have to question anyone trying to force fit God into a box of their own making to start with. I certainly don't have a sufficient box for that purpose, NOR do I want/desire one.
 
I agree with you Brother. I think that in order for it to be a legit sacrifice, honorable in all respects, that He would of had to really suffer. I don't see a Holy God pulling a loophole to go through an act. In front of the whole universe, Angels and man? No.

Remember Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane? If there is a way to let this cup pass from me, Father? He knew it wasn't going to be pleasant.Nevertheless, not my will, but thine. He really did suffer and die.

The human nature was a necessary legal requirement in order for Jesus to co-sign for our sin debt?
So He was made a little lower than the Angels for awhile...Hebrews 2:9
 
We might understand that Christology was "developed" over the course of nearly 500 years by some of the greatest minds on the planet, after the resurrection. It's obviously not easy subject matter.

Part of the problem some might have trouble understanding that Jesus was a 'real' human being, like us, is because He had no sin, and most automatically associate the 'human nature' as a sin nature. How human could a human be if they were sinless? Part of the "error" of the early debaters to this matter was the thought that if WE worked hard enough, and made the right decisions, we TOO can be sinless. That was an error of the early churches in their freewill postures.

Yes, Jesus was like us in every respect except for one very LARGE differentiating factor, that being WITHOUT SIN. I'd consider that difference to be massive comparative to everyone else prior or since.

It's problematic for any of us to even conceive of such a state, because we have never "experienced" what that is like. IF we even claim to "have," present tense have, no sin we are not even in truth. 1 John 1:8. And we are liars if we say we haven't sinned.

So, yeah, there are some ropes around this matter from our perspectives. How human can a sinless human really be? I'd guess as human as a sinless human could be.

Don't really see any other options. The fact that God Himself showed up in a "prepared human body, Fathered Directly by God Himself" can be considered nothing less than a GREAT MYSTERY, as the scriptures propose:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Although I appreciate the men who deliberated this matter for nearly 500 years they did cover their tracks with the fact that it is a great mystery, details notwithstanding. I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that Jesus was born of a woman, just like any human being is born, was raised as a human being, lived with human beings, WAS a human being. There is no question about that. IF we say Jesus was only Divine there are other problems that can arise from that sight.

It's very problematic without Jesus being a real human being, to claim that He really suffered, sacrificed, died, etc. I mean really, can a Divine Only Status partake of any of that? I don't think so.

We are told this about God. That God Is A Spirit. And that God Is Invisible. Col. 1:15, 1 Tim. 1:17, Heb. 11:27, John 4:24. How then can an Invisible Spirit suffer, sacrifice and die? Does that cover the state/status of Jesus? No. Jesus was human, was visible, had a body, sacrificed, suffered and died a very real physical death. No "Invisible Spirit," non human Divine Being could do any of that. All of this REQUIRED A PREPARED HUMAN BODY that was HUMAN.

So, saying Jesus was a human but with no human nature brings other problems. Did Jesus need to eat? Go to the bathroom? Work to feed Himself etc etc. Yes, He was also subject to do things HUMANS are required to do in a human body in order to live/survive.

That would appear to at least require the human nature to do so. Why would A Divine Invisible Spirit only need to do any of that? Being a human being comes with an obligation to do human things that requires the obligations of the human nature to do so. I'm pretty sure Jesus, as a human being, had to learn a lot of things about being human, just like we do. We have no record of Jesus hopping out of the womb and turning into an instant sage, able to speak and perform miracles at the snap of His Finger.

I can only say that the distinction between being a human sinner and a human without sin is an exceptionally wide gulf for us to really fathom. Being "like" us in every way except for that is a rather large exception.

I really do appreciate your position on the nature of our Savior. You are right in that this has been a source of debate from very early times. If the great Theologians of the past, could not agree on whether Jesus had two natures or just one, what chance to we have? NONE, IMO.

I'm willing to just let this discussion cease because I don't see any point in continuing. I'm committed and convicted to only one nature, a Divine one. I see no change in the future. You have presented a very good two nature posture. I'm glad that we are free to believe what our hearts dictate.

I love you my Brother and good friend. :hug
 
For Edward and others, this is my position on whether or not Jesus had two natures.

Colossians 2:9 "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily." And Colossians 1:19 "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell." When Jesus was FULL of deity and FULL of God, there is no room for anything human other than a body. Lets look at Christ's body....Colossians 1:22 "He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him." And Hebrews 10:5 "Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me." And Hebrews 10:10 "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

1. Colossians 2:9 There simply is no room for a human nature in Christ Jesus since He is FULL of deity.
2. Colossians 1:19 Again, fullness is fullness!
3. Colossians 1:22 "We are reconciled thru His body of flesh." which He obtained thru the Spirit thru Mary. Please note that there is no mention of a human nature it is solely His body of flesh!

This next verse may possibly be my most important qualifying statement of Scripture against a human nature in Christ Jesus. As I was considering my position, I believe that the Spirit of Christ Jesus gave me this next verse.
4. Hebrews 10:5 "A body have you prepared for me." I don't see a human nature here.
5. Hebrews 10:10 Offering of His Body, no human nature here.

Case closed.
 
I just can't bring my heart/mind into believing that Christ Jesus, the very God had a human nature alongside His Divine Nature. Being God in the flesh, He didn't need it, and I don't see in the Scriptures any statement that He had a "man nature"
  • Jesus had a human birth and growth (Luke 2:7, 12, 40
  • A human body (Heb. 2:14) (John 4:6; 19:34; Luke 24:39, 50, 51; Acts 1:11)
  • A human soul (John 12:27)
  • Human spirit (Luke 2:40; 23:46)
Christ did not have a human sinful Adamic nature becoming flesh (John 1:14; Philip. 2:7) Though He was the Son of David. That came from His mother Mary. Jesus was conceived by the creator Spirit (Matt. 1:18-23; Luke 1:30-35)

Jesus came into the world as the last Adam, a life giving Spirit, as distinguished from the first man Adam.....a living soul (1 Cor. 15:45).

Jesus had a sinless human nature. as to suffer the things as His brethren so as to be a better high priest. (association with mankind's temptations) (Heb. 2:9-18) He was God (of the OT) and the Son of man (The new man) that we were to conform to His image. (Rom. 8:28-30)
 
We are [if we continue] participants in a thing that I like to call, "The Unfolding Revelation of God."

How well did the Israelites know Him? Not enough to trust Him, not really. They saw the mountain tremble. They experienced the riveting fear of His Holiness. How well did cousin John (the Baptist) know him? He knew him even from the womb and leaped! Jesus said John was "The Greatest [Prophet of the Old Agreement b/w God and man]."

But did John live to see the sacrifice? Did he witness the resurrection? He was 'greatest' by way of proximity to the coming of the Messiah. But did he know what even the least in the Kingdom these days 'know' and experience so intimately? We are greater than John, and for the same reason. Jesus is coming soon. Could the baptism of John *unto repentance only* save? We know from the letter to Ephesus that it could not.

:idea And yet, we are called to be and become more: We become his tool. The net of the great Fisher of men. And even as we are joined into His purpose, so also are we changed. We become more than our Father's tool. We are partnered in Christ and become His friend! But then... it dawns upon us. We are His child! No longer lost and alone.

Marvel not that flesh became the tent of the Divine but rather marvel at what is being found even now, even in you, Chopper. The Spirit of God. Yes, convicted and concluded by the Host High, sinners all. Brought to our knees at the cross. That we may be redeemed. That His Spirit Holy is found in us, in YOU. Holiness in you. Holiness in flesh? :confused Now that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. Holiness is utterly apart --forever and utterly-- apart from all sin. It's mercy I tell ya. God-Trust (faith) and mercy. But you already know.

Found in us because of the trust that Jesus placed in his Father, kept as his preference even unto death. Because the man Jesus kept his eye on his Father without wavering. Then he allowed himself to be emptied. The ultimate pouring out. We are the beneficiaries of the 'conversation' that flowed between Father and Son. Because Jesus did all that was given him to do. And then he died anyway. What could be denied him? Nothing. Because here we see a higher justice. Heb 12:2 For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of ...

We are the why and I am speaking now of the mystery. Speaking of the wedding feast of the Lamb of God. It is the revelation of The Christ as spoken to The Beloved (John on Patmos) by his Spirit. So also, we have not yet known but shall know... even as we are known.

"You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." Hebrews 2:8 This subjection is not complete. It is begun, it is carrying on, but it is not finished --"But now we see not yet all things put under him." We have yet to cast our crowns at HIS feet. And as you know, He is not yet done providing our crowns.
 
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For Edward and others, this is my position on whether or not Jesus had two natures.

Colossians 2:9 "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily." And Colossians 1:19 "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell." When Jesus was FULL of deity and FULL of God, there is no room for anything human other than a body. Lets look at Christ's body....Colossians 1:22 "He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him." And Hebrews 10:5 "Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me." And Hebrews 10:10 "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

1. Colossians 2:9 There simply is no room for a human nature in Christ Jesus since He is FULL of deity.
2. Colossians 1:19 Again, fullness is fullness!
3. Colossians 1:22 "We are reconciled thru His body of flesh." which He obtained thru the Spirit thru Mary. Please note that there is no mention of a human nature it is solely His body of flesh!

This next verse may possibly be my most important qualifying statement of Scripture against a human nature in Christ Jesus. As I was considering my position, I believe that the Spirit of Christ Jesus gave me this next verse.
4. Hebrews 10:5 "A body have you prepared for me." I don't see a human nature here.
5. Hebrews 10:10 Offering of His Body, no human nature here.

Case closed.

Ephesians 3:19
19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the the fullness of God.
 
We are [if we continue] participants in a thing that I like to call, "The Unfolding Revelation of God."

How well did the Israelites know Him? Not enough to trust Him, not really. They saw the mountain tremble. They experienced the riveting fear of His Holiness. How well did cousin John (the Baptist) know him? He knew him even from the womb and leaped! Jesus said John was "The Greatest [Prophet of the Old Agreement b/w God and man]."

But did John live to see the sacrifice? Did he witness the resurrection? He was 'greatest' by way of proximity to the coming of the Messiah. But did he know what even the least in the Kingdom these days 'know' and experience so intimately? We are greater than John, and for the same reason. Jesus is coming soon. Could the baptism of John *unto repentance only* save? We know from the letter to Ephesus that it could not.

:idea And yet, we are called to be and become more: We become his tool. The net of the great Fisher of men. And even as we are joined into His purpose, so also are we changed. We become more than our Father's tool. We are partnered in Christ and become His friend! But then... it dawns upon us. We are His child! No longer lost and alone.

Marvel not that flesh became the tent of the Divine but rather marvel at what is being found even now, even in you, Chopper. The Spirit of God. Yes, convicted and concluded by the Host High, sinners all. Brought to our knees at the cross. That we may be redeemed. That His Spirit Holy is found in us, in YOU. Holiness in you. Holiness in flesh? :confused Now that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. Holiness is utterly apart --forever and utterly-- apart from all sin. It's mercy I tell ya. God-Trust (faith) and mercy. But you already know.

Found in us because of the trust that Jesus placed in his Father, kept as his preference even unto death. Because the man Jesus kept his eye on his Father without wavering. Then he allowed himself to be emptied. The ultimate pouring out. We are the beneficiaries of the 'conversation' that flowed between Father and Son. Because Jesus did all that was given him to do. And then he died anyway. What could be denied him? Nothing. Because here we see a higher justice. Heb 12:2 For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of ...

We are the why and I am speaking now of the mystery. Speaking of the wedding feast of the Lamb of God. It is the revelation of The Christ as spoken to The Beloved (John on Patmos) by his Spirit. So also, we have not yet known but shall know... even as we are known.

"You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." Hebrews 2:8 This subjection is not complete. It is begun, it is carrying on, but it is not finished --"But now we see not yet all things put under him." We have yet to cast our crowns at HIS feet. And as you know, He is not yet done providing our crowns.

Wow, a most favored friend from the past.:wave Welcome back, you have been missed by our little group. Reba, Eugene, and especially me. There are more that I could mention that Love you for sure. Thank you for your wonderful post. Especially...."But now we see not yet all things put under him." Hebrews 2:8 O Sparrow, I can't wait. This morning when I awoke at 2:00am, I thought to myself, "O no, I'm still here, guess there's more work do be done." When I finished presenting my body a living sacrifice to my Heavenly Father, and adoring Jesus, my Great High Priest, and His Spirit, Studied a chapter in Psalms and another in Leviticus, got another coffee, I saw your message on my computer. NOW, that made my day at 3:30am this morning. Just to hear from you is a "Home Run".
 
Ephesians 3:19
19 and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the the fullness of God.

Thank you my new friend jaybird. O to be filled with the "fullness of God" today, would be a very great accomplishment of the Holy Spirit and our surrender to Him. I hope you have a very blessed day jaybird. I already see in you, good things, and I'm looking forward to what's in your heart to share with us.
 
Thank you my new friend jaybird. O to be filled with the "fullness of God" today, would be a very great accomplishment of the Holy Spirit and our surrender to Him. I hope you have a very blessed day jaybird. I already see in you, good things, and I'm looking forward to what's in your heart to share with us.
yw chopper. i fall short of that fullness, vary far actually, but i do think it is possible, i think its one of the things Jesus came to show us.
funny thought chopper, my work nickname, "chop".
 
Human nature smacks a bit like psychology.

Scriptures present humans as a compilation of good/evil. Jesus was neither. He had/has a Perfect Nature. It's kind of disingenuous to say that's the same good/evil nature that all mankind has. That's largely the delineation that the hypostatic union proposes, that Jesus had a Perfect human nature and a Perfect God Nature in Perfect Harmonious existence. But if we examine the details of that human nature we wouldn't really find it a nature EXACTLY like ours, that being a compilation of good/evil. Being the possessor i.e. BEING the Spirit of God without limitations does have it's advantages.

There is no one that can really relate to NOT having an evil nature i.e. evil present with us. Romans 7:21. That certainly clouds our understandings, beyond any doubt. Jesus did not have this particular "universal" human problem and that is a very big difference. And as to being "merely good" again, no. There is a massive gulf between good and Human Perfect/God Perfect that none of us can cross on our own.
 
how can Jesus be tempted just like us when His divine nature makes Him not like us?

I believe that Jesus was PERFECT. Whether or not He had a human nature matters not because He was and is, PERFECT. Now, all the fuss about two natures of the Son of God, Jesus, in this verse and those like it....Hebrews 4:14 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Again, Jesus, the Son of God, was perfect holiness and could not sin. The reason that Jesus was in all points tempted like as we are, was not that He had a human sin nature, but that God the Son, as our Forerunner, experienced all that Satan threw at Him and, as our example, sinned not.

You asked, "how can Jesus be tempted just like us when His divine nature makes Him not like us?" My answer is; we are the ones who have two natures, and because of that, Jesus' nature was not polluted by a human sin nature. Jesus is not like us because He doesn't have a human sin nature. Jesus animated a human body like ours, the main reason was to take it to the cross. Jesus needed a body to house perfect divine Blood to be shed for the remission of our sins.

Now, what is a human nature that many believe was in Christ Jesus? It is a sin nature passed to us from Adam. Jesus had no sin nature and that's why He did not sin.
 
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Now, what is a human nature that many believe was in Christ Jesus? It is a sin nature passed to us from Adam. Jesus had no sin nature and that's why He did not sin.
I don't think anyone here believes Jesus had a human 'sin' nature, just a human nature. The propensity to sin comes to us from our father Adam. Jesus had no sin, Adam was not His father.
 

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