SALVATION

[Solo]

Many, many, many do not know Christ Jesus as their savior and cannot see or hear the truth of God's Salvation. Others who are saved by God's grace are immature in their walk with Christ and have not learned the truth of God's Word yet; however, God's salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned by works. For we are saved by God's unmerited favor of grace through faith; not of anything that we have done for Salvation is a GIFT given to us from God Almighty; NOT OF OUR WORKS LEST WE SHOULD BOAST!

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

The Scriptures tell us that because of belief in God, righteousness is credited to us; not by works but by belief/faith. To those who work for their salvation believe that God's grace is not sufficient, but that by their works and God being indebted to them, they can be saved. Abraham was not justified by works, but he was justified by his belief in God. Those who work for salvation are justified in their minds by God being indebted to them, not by God's ability to bestow upon them a free gift out of grace. Those who believe in Him who justifies the ungodly through His grace by faith have Jesus' righteousness credited to them.

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found ? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say ? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, Romans 4:1-5

The Scriptures teach us that we are saved by GRACE through FAITH, not of WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. Since we are saved by GRACE, our salvation is not of WORKS, otherwise GRACE IS NO MORE GRACE. But if our salvation is of WORKS, then it is NO MORE GRACE; otherwise WORK IS NO MORE WORK!

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:5-6

Those who are born again, born of God are new creatures created because of their belief in Jesus Christ; therefore, a man is not justified by WORKS but by the faith of Jesus Christ since we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not by WORKS. NO FLESH WILL BE JUSTIFIED BY WORKS.

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16

Paul called the Galatians foolish when he asked them who had bewitched them to disobey the truth. He asks them the question, "Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" He then answers with a question, "Are you so foolish having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the works of the flesh?"

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth , crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians 3:1-3

We receive the Spirit by faith in Christ Jesus. Jesus taught us that unless we are born of God we cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. This is accomplished by believing in Him. Our salvation is a free gift given to us at the moment of our belief in the WORK of Jesus Christ. We are not saved by our works, but by the works of Jesus Christ.

Our Savior, Jesus Christ appeared to us to save us, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy toward us by the renewing of the Holy Spirit that we are justified by grace, not works. We are heirs of eternal life through our belief in Jesus Christ works.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared , 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

 

[shad]

Many, many, many do not know Christ Jesus as their savior and cannot see or hear the truth of God's Salvation.

Spreading OSAS, you dont seem to know Jesus.

Do you claim yourself to be holy and righteous, too?

 

[glorydaz]

Many, many, many do not know Christ Jesus as their savior and cannot see or hear the truth of God's Salvation. Others who are saved by God's grace are immature in their walk with Christ and have not learned the truth of God's Word yet; however, God's salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned by works. For we are saved by God's unmerited favor of grace through faith; not of anything that we have done for Salvation is a GIFT given to us from God Almighty; NOT OF OUR WORKS LEST WE SHOULD BOAST!

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

The Scriptures tell us that because of belief in God, righteousness is credited to us; not by works but by belief/faith. To those who work for their salvation believe that God's grace is not sufficient, but that by their works and God being indebted to them, they can be saved. Abraham was not justified by works, but he was justified by his belief in God. Those who work for salvation are justified in their minds by God being indebted to them, not by God's ability to bestow upon them a free gift out of grace. Those who believe in Him who justifies the ungodly through His grace by faith have Jesus' righteousness credited to them.

[quote="New American Standard":9ejeds7r]1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found ? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say ? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, Romans 4:1-5

The Scriptures teach us that we are saved by GRACE through FAITH, not of WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. Since we are saved by GRACE, our salvation is not of WORKS, otherwise GRACE IS NO MORE GRACE. But if our salvation is of WORKS, then it is NO MORE GRACE; otherwise WORK IS NO MORE WORK!

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:5-6

Those who are born again, born of God are new creatures created because of their belief in Jesus Christ; therefore, a man is not justified by WORKS but by the faith of Jesus Christ since we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not by WORKS. NO FLESH WILL BE JUSTIFIED BY WORKS.

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16

Paul called the Galatians foolish when he asked them who had bewitched them to disobey the truth. He asks them the question, "Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" He then answers with a question, "Are you so foolish having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the works of the flesh?"

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth , crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians 3:1-3

We receive the Spirit by faith in Christ Jesus. Jesus taught us that unless we are born of God we cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. This is accomplished by believing in Him. Our salvation is a free gift given to us at the moment of our belief in the WORK of Jesus Christ. We are not saved by our works, but by the works of Jesus Christ.

Our Savior, Jesus Christ appeared to us to save us, not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy toward us by the renewing of the Holy Spirit that we are justified by grace, not works. We are heirs of eternal life through our belief in Jesus Christ works.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared , 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

[/quote:9ejeds7r]
This needs to be repeated over and over again.
To deny the work of the cross seems to be the order of the day, and, as believers, we cannot stop preaching the Word of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Many, many, many do not know Christ Jesus as their savior and cannot see or hear the truth of God's Salvation.

Spreading OSAS, you dont seem to know Jesus.

Do you claim yourself to be holy and righteous, too?

I've noticed this on other threads, as well.
These works-based faith people do like to judge.

I'm beginning to realize their work is to accuse others.

I see no fruit, whatsoever....just the works of discension, division, and false accusations.

 

[Drew]

Many, many, many do not know Christ Jesus as their savior and cannot see or hear the truth of God's Salvation. Others who are saved by God's grace are immature in their walk with Christ and have not learned the truth of God's Word yet; however, God's salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned by works. For we are saved by God's unmerited favor of grace through faith; not of anything that we have done for Salvation is a GIFT given to us from God Almighty; NOT OF OUR WORKS LEST WE SHOULD BOAST!

It is true that works of the unregenerate cannot count unto eternal life. But Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good.

Paul's argument is this: the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer "conforms" them to the image of the Son - Romans 8 -so that they will indeed manifest the good works that will qualify them for salvation.

Now about Ephesians 2:8-9, one of the most deeply misunderstood texts in the New Testament.

In Ephesians 2:9, Paul is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Torah, and is not talking about the more general category of “good worksâ€.

To be fair here, the reader needs to unshackle himself from the deeply ingrained, reformation inspired, pre-disposition to read "works" as "good works" in Ephesians 2:9. Once freed of that pre-disposition, the reader can then ask the question as which of the following views makes more sense given the arguments Paul mounts in verse 11 and following (and other stuff we know Paul believes):

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied in verse 9;
2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses (the Torah) is being denied in verse 9.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what Paul goes on to say in verse 11 as well as what he says in Romans 3, where he makes it clear that, in respect to good works, the Jew and the Gentile are in the same boat.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of what he has just said. This is important because what follows will help disambiguate what Paul means by "works" in verse 9.

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Paul is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Remember the "therefore" from verse 11 - Paul is telling us the implications of his verse 9 statement that none are saved by "works". Now here it becomes clear that these are the works of Torah since, obviously, it is by doing the works of Torah, being "under Torah" as it were, that the Jew could say "I am part of God's covenant people" or I am a member of "Israel". What marks out the nation Israel from the Gentile? Possession and doing of Torah, of course. This is an exceedingly powerful argument - Paul here is obviously talking about the basis on which the Gentiles were excluded from membership in the covenant family - and that basis is obviously the possession of Torah and doing its works.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

How much more clear could Paul be - he is talking about Torah. What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are in Adam – they are on “the same side†of any good works barrier (fisrt 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Torah, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

What Paul says in verses 11 and following does not cohere with a “works = good works†interpretation but makes perfect sense if we understand the "works" in verse 9 as the works of Torah, and not "good works" in the more general sense.

 

[glorydaz]

Drew, you continue to insist Rom. 2 and 2 Cor. say something they do not. Paul does not, in any way, say ultimate salvation is based on good works. A believers WORK is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

You have provided zero Biblical evidence that when God (in Christ) judges us, He will base his verdict on the issue of whether we have believed.

For my part, I have provided Romans 2, Romans 8, ans 2 Corinthians 5, all of which assert that eternal life is granted on the basis of good works.

At the end of the day, this is about what the Biblical evidence supports - and I see no evidence at all for the position you are advocating.

We will be rewarded for the fruit produced by the Holy Spirit through us...our works of faith, but that does not affect our eternal life. We're eternal right now if we are His.

Againl, you have provided no evidence for this at all. The materrial in 1 Corinthians 3 - where people are saved even though their "works" to do pass muster - is directed specifically to Christian leaders and teachers. Check the context - Paul is not talking human beings in general and "good works" in general here - he is addressing a very specific issue and saying that if the leaders go astray in their function as leaders, this will not mean ultimate loss.

But it certainly does not excuse them from the Romans 2 judgement where good works are the basis for receiving eternal life.

Solo just provided scripture...I've provided scripture...others have provided scripture, all to no avail.
You really don't desire to hear what's been provided. I'm not sure I can do anything to help you see.
You have managed to pick out certain verses that you think support your views, while ignoring the rest of the Word of God. Romans 2 and 2 Cor. are not saying what you think they're saying. Are you really interesting in discussing them again? We can go line by line if you'd like.

 

[Drew]

This needs to be repeated over and over again.
To deny the work of the cross seems to be the order of the day, and, as believers, we cannot stop preaching the Word of God.

No. Solo is not performing a correct analysis.

For instance, he has deeply misunderstood Ephesians 2:8-9, as per the argument that alwaysgets ignored - and which I have just re-posted.

When a proper contextual analysis is performed in relation to Eph 2:8-9, we see that, despite long tradition, Paul is not denying ultimate justification by good works.

And that's a good thing too - since he affirms justification by good works in place like Romans 2, Romans 8, and 2 Corinthians 5.

 

[Drew]

Solo just provided scripture...I've provided scripture...others have provided scripture, all to no avail.

Solo has provided no argument - I have already shown that his analysis is wrong in respect to Ephesians 2. Just because one "provides scripture" does not mean that one has correctly understood it.

Why do you think people (including you) simply refuse to engage my argument about Ephesians 2:8-9. I sugget the reason is this: the argument is correct and to acknowledge this would require you and others to re-visit your entire understanding of the Bible and its treatement of this subject.

But I am happy to pursue this - name one text, any text at all - that denies this statement from Paul:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

You really don't desire to hear what's been provided. I'm not sure I can do anything to help you see.

You have no evidence for this statement at all. I have not ignored your arguments and my arguments are clear and do not appeal to rhetoric. The arguments are what they are - so go ahead and show the readers where I am mistaken. But please do not make suggestions about my motivations that are pure speculation on your part.

 

[glorydaz]

Drew, I'm a good example of someone that had no ingrained reformation inspired pre-disposition. I read the Bible and the Holy Spirit opened the Word to my understanding. There are many people just like me that come to the Word with an open-heart. We're not indoctrinated by man's thinking. I don't read another man's ideas concerning the Word. Now, can you please tell me how someone can come with the faith of a child and be taught of God? Does not the Holy Spirit illuminate the Scripture to us?

I read the same portion you do, and it's very clear to me what Paul is saying. There is no need to read into it something that is not there. Paul is saying that people can come in reliance on the law or their own good works. If they obey the law in every point, and have a multitude of good deeds striving for eternal life, they will get it.....if they have no sin. That's the point. Even one sin will cancel out all the rest. That's why Paul goes on to share the Gospel message. Jesus is the only way...our obedience to the law, and our good works will never get us there.

 

[Drew]

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16

Paul called the Galatians foolish when he asked them who had bewitched them to disobey the truth. He asks them the question, "Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" He then answers with a question, "Are you so foolish having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the works of the flesh?"

This text simply does not deny that good works save.

It denies that doing the works of the Law of Moses - the Torah - saves.

I have never denied, and would never deny that doing the works of the Torah will save.

 

[glorydaz]

This needs to be repeated over and over again.
To deny the work of the cross seems to be the order of the day, and, as believers, we cannot stop preaching the Word of God.

No. Solo is not performing a correct analysis.

For instance, he has deeply misunderstood Ephesians 2:8-9, as per the argument that alwaysgets ignored - and which I have just re-posted.

When a proper contextual analysis is performed in relation to Eph 2:8-9, we see that, despite long tradition, Paul is not denying ultimate justification by good works.

And that's a good thing too - since he affirms justification by good works in place like Romans 2, Romans 8, and 2 Corinthians 5.

I'm just shaking my head. How can you possibly not see that Paul is talking to a body of believers...he is not, in any way shape or form, speaking about the Torah. Have you read Eph. 1? Don't you see who he is talking to here? Point out the Torah...point out the Jew...Paul's ministry is to the Gentiles. Are you reading the same Bible I am? :crazy

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[glorydaz]

Againl, you have provided no evidence for this at all. The materrial in 1 Corinthians 3 - where people are saved even though their "works" to do pass muster - is directed specifically to Christian leaders and teachers. Check the context - Paul is not talking human beings in general and "good works" in general here - he is addressing a very specific issue and saying that if the leaders go astray in their function as leaders, this will not mean ultimate loss.

This is an example of your logic. Paul makes a point to say we are all labourers together in the harvest and yet, you say he was not talking "human beings in general". You're simply wrong, and yet you seem so surprised that we all don't just jump and accept what you say as Gospel.

Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

 

[Drew]

I'm just shaking my head. How can you possibly not see that Paul is talking to a body of believers...he is not, in any way shape or form, speaking about the Torah. Have you read Eph. 1? Don't you see who he is talking to here? Point out the Torah...point out the Jew...Paul's ministry is to the Gentiles. Are you reading the same Bible I am? :crazy

Nothing in my post denies that Paul is talking to believers - why would you think I am saying such a thing? And that is he is indeed talking about the Torah is argued for in detail in my argument. You, by contrast, are not making an argument, you are merely making an assertion when you say that Paul is not talking about Torah. How about doing what I am doing and actually defend your position.

And the fact that Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles does not mean that Torah is not a concern. There is a very obvious reason why Paul would write about Torah to Gentiles - to re-assure them that, despite the claim of some Jews - justification and salvation are not limited to Jews, those under the Torah.

Now please engage the actual substance of my argument.

 

[Drew]

This is an example of your logic. Paul makes a point to say we are all labourers together in the harvest and yet, you say he was not talking "human beings in general". You're simply wrong, and yet you seem so surprised that we all don't just jump and accept what you say as Gospel.

I doubt that I am wrong. The very text you provided shows that Paul is talking about those charged with ministry of the gospel - he is not talking about humen beings in general here and he is not talking about good works in general. The subject here is the responsibility of church leaders to faithfully tell the gospel.

Now as to the "every man" in verse 5, which you underline. I do not know what version you are using, but note the NASB rendering. It does not use the term "every man", but rather "each one" in a context where it is otherwise clear that church leaders, in particular are being addressed. In this respect, note how verse 6 very specifically identifies the role of Paul and Apollos as leaders.

What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.

And again, later in the passage, your translation has "every man" receiving a reward. But that is not what the NASB says - in this rendering it is crystal clear that Paul is confining his analysis to those who are performing the tasks of churh leadership:

So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will (O)receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Translation issues aside, it is fascinating here that you seem to think the "everyone" means literally everyone, when you make precisely the opposite move in Romans 2, to evade the application of the Romans 2 judgement to believers.

Problem is that in Romans 2, context gives no justification for restricting scope, whereas this is not the case in this text from 1 Cor 3 - Paul has clearly established a context where the behaviour of church leaders, in particular, is at issue.

 

[mutzrein]

John 6:28,29

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Ed. I do like your response. I was going to lock this thread but I'd to like to see some responses to your post.

John 6:28,29

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

 

[Drew]

Hi Ed. I do like your response. I was going to lock this thread but I'd to like to see some responses to your post.

John 6:28,29

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Hi Vic. I assume that you are not considering lockng this thread because you consider reasonable discussion of this topic to be "out of bounds".

In any event, there is nothing in this statement from Jesus which denies what is so clearly established by Paul and by Jesus Himself - that ultimate justification will be based on good works.

Precisely what do skeptics think Paul means when we writes about how the Spirit will "give life to your mortal bodies as you walk in its ways"? (Romans 8).

In any event, when Jesus answers in this way, He is saying nothing that I would not agree with, and nothing that challenges anything I have written in this thread - to believe in God results in the giving of the Spirit will most assuredly result in the gift of the Spirit and the subsequent transformation of the believer into the kind of person who will do the works that will vindicate them at the coming Romans 2 (and 2 Corinthians 3) judgement. In particular, note that Jesus' statement is compatible with this: if you believe in the one who He has sent, you will be transformed into the kind of person "fit for heaven".

Let me address the "Jesus does not say this here, Drew!" objection. Well of course He doesn't. But each word from Jesus' mouth need not entail a comprehensive theology. The point is that what Jesus says here is perfectly compatible with the view that I (and perhaps others) are advancing.

People are stuck in a mindset that they cannot (or will not) challenge. They have a "purely forensic" model of justification that they bring to the relevant texts. This requires them to invent implausible explanations for Romans 2 and Romans 8. Instead, if we sit back and let Paul drive the bus, we see that Paul's position (in respect to the matter of ultimate salvation) is this:

God will indeed grant eternal life based on good works. But, in the present, we can know with assurance who will pass that judgement – those who by faith alone have appropriated the grace of God and are being conformed to the image of the Son.

I trust we all understand that God does not conform us to the Son for “giggles†– this transformation is deeply and organically related to God being able to truly say (at the coming judgement): “You persisted in doing good and I will therefore grant you eternal life.â€

Please do not suggest that I am denying the sufficiency of the blood of Jesus to absolutely, positively guarantee this outcome. I am doing no such thing as dozens of clearly articulated posts in this and other threads testify.

Romans 2, Romans 2, Romans 2. Sorry, it won’t go away.

 

[shad]

I've noticed this on other threads, as well.
These works-based faith people do like to judge.

How am I judging?

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Vic. I assume that you are not considering lockng this thread because you consider reasonable discussion of this topic to be "out of bounds".

That made absolutely no sense.



I liked Ed's response. You got any reasonable responses to it?

 

[Panin]

No, but it is Christ that is my Holyness and Righteousness, not my good works that have got me into heaven. And I am already there.

You dont seem to know what you are talking about.

Do you think your works are what saves you and gets you into heaven? This must mean that you think you are holy and righteous enough person to get into heaven. Do you?

Why do you correct Jesus' word? Jesus says to make every effort to get into God's kingdom. You have been saying you cannot be saved by good works. Without making effort (work) you will not make into heaven or He will not tell us to make every effort. This is Jesus' word. You guys are making up your own salvation.

Huh? We arent the ones saying we can save oursleves, you are? What efforts are you making and how do you now your efforts are good enough to get you into heaveni?