SALVATION

[Panin]

Hi Ed. I do like your response. I was going to lock this thread but I'd to like to see some responses to your post.

John 6:28,29

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

No offense but this scripture has been quoted on this thread at least once before.

Those propogating a works based salvation ignore the questions put to them as to how exactly one earns their salvation, they can not define works, and they patently ignore scripture. In other words, they can not share the good news of the gospel with anyone becuase A. They do not know what it is B They do not know how to be saved, and C, If by some chance they did receive Christ through faith alone at some stage, they do not know how they where saved and or how to stay saved.

I would be interested to know what the stance of the administrators and owners of this forum is on this vital doctrine of the Christian faith, because in my opinion, a works based salvation has nothing to do with Chistianity and has no place on a Christian forum, no matter how these people try to Chistianize this doctrine.

Also just because the debate is as old as the hills, or should I say, this outright attack on the saving grace of Christ, does not make it any more valid or worthy of constant discussion.

 

[Drew]

Hi Vic. I assume that you are not considering lockng this thread because you consider reasonable discussion of this topic to be "out of bounds".

That made absolutely no sense.

I thought it was perfectly clear. I was asking whether you, as moderator, objected to this particular topic being discussed, even if that discussion was polite/

I liked Ed's response. You got any reasonable responses to it?

I have fully and completely addressed Ed's response.

 

[Panin]

I assume that you are not considering lockng this thread because you consider reasonable discussion of this topic to be "out of bounds".

There is nothing reasonable about your belief system, it is not christian, it is a blatant twisting of the scripture and it has no place on a Christian forum.

Locking this thread down would be a waste of time unless it is removed from the site intirely. That said, because the discussion has been allowed to go on for so long, it would appear to me that this site has no real opposition to your beliefs, so then again I would see little point in locking it down now.

 

[Son of Israel]

Hi Vic. I assume that you are not considering lockng this thread because you consider reasonable discussion of this topic to be "out of bounds".

That made absolutely no sense.

I thought it was perfectly clear. I was asking whether you, as moderator, objected to this particular topic being discussed, even if that discussion was polite/

I liked Ed's response. You got any reasonable responses to it?

I have fully and completely addressed Ed's response.

Christ has saved me!

I hope that isn't a problem for anyone here

Son of Israel

 

[Drew]

Those propogating a works based salvation ignore the questions put to them as to how exactly one earns their salvation, they can not define works, and they patently ignore scripture.

I suggest that this generalization is not borne out by the facts. I, for one, have pretty much addressed everything thrown at me. Perhaps some things have been overlooked, but only because of the volume of material - gd posts quite prolifically.

You certainly have no actual evidence to sustain an accusation of "ignoring scripture" against moi.

I would be interested to know what the stance of the administrators and owners of this forum is on this vital doctrine of the Christian faith, because in my opinion, a works based salvation has nothing to do with Chistianity and has no place on a Christian forum, no matter how these people try to Chistianize this doctrine.

I cannot speak for all, but I have provided Biblical arguments. You seem to be suggesting that Biblical arguments should not be allowed if you happen to not share the conclusion they lead to.

Instead of implying that the likes of me be muzzled, why not engage the substance of my arguments. For example, do you think Eph 2:8-9 denies ultimate justification by good works? Well, if you are right in such an interpretation, it should be an easy task to engage my argument and disclose where I have gone astray.

Please, go ahead and do so.

 

[Drew]

I assume that you are not considering lockng this thread because you consider reasonable discussion of this topic to be "out of bounds".

There is nothing reasonable about your belief system, it is not christian, it is a blatant twisting of the scripture and it has no place on a Christian forum.

This is not the way to make your point. I have provided an annoying array of Biblical arguments. Why not actually engage them and we can discuss the various based on their specifically scriptural merits.

 

[Drew]

I've noticed this on other threads, as well.
These works-based faith people do like to judge.

Do you mean like this non-judgemental cutie from a poster whose views you endorse (my underline)?

Others who are saved by God's grace are immature in their walk with Christ and have not learned the truth of God's Word yet;

 

[Panin]

Those propogating a works based salvation ignore the questions put to them as to how exactly one earns their salvation, they can not define works, and they patently ignore scripture.

I suggest that this generalization is not borne out by the facts. I, for one, have pretty much addressed everything thrown at me. Perhaps some things have been overlooked, but only because of the volume of material - gd posts quite prolifically.

You certainly have no actual evidence to sustain an accusation of "ignoring scripture" against moi.

I would be interested to know what the stance of the administrators and owners of this forum is on this vital doctrine of the Christian faith, because in my opinion, a works based salvation has nothing to do with Chistianity and has no place on a Christian forum, no matter how these people try to Chistianize this doctrine.

I cannot speak for all, but I have provided Biblical arguments. You seem to be suggesting that Biblical arguments should not be allowed if you happen to not share the conclusion they lead to.

Instead of implying that the likes of me be muzzled, why not engage the substance of my arguments. For example, do you think Eph 2:8-9 denies ultimate justification by good works? Well, if you are right in such an interpretation, it should be an easy task to engage my argument and disclose where I have gone astray.

Please, go ahead and do so.

In that case go ahead and tell me how one is saved initially, then explain in detail how one stays saved, IE what works one has to do on a continual daily basis to remain saved?

Followed by: After one is "saved", when exactly can they loose their salvation and what one must do to avoid this happening. Surely your belief system will have a valid explaination for someone who is inquiring how to follow your religion. I have not had one answer to these vital questions on salvation form any one of you who believe what you believe. And I would like one please.

If you drop another one liner I will have to assume you have absolutely no clue how to answer these genuine fundamental questions as to how one is to get saved and stay saved. And in that case why would anyone in their right mind wish to follow your teachings or your religion.

All you have done is attempt to refute what it is irrefuteably the biblical salvation through grace, you have not done that, nor have you explained an alternate way to be saved and more importantly to remain SAVED.

Oh and I have not implied that you be muzzled at all, its way to late for that. You have had free rain for weeks in here with your false doctrines.

 

[Drew]

I'm just shaking my head. How can you possibly not see that Paul is talking to a body of believers...he is not, in any way shape or form, speaking about the Torah. Have you read Eph. 1? Don't you see who he is talking to here? Point out the Torah...point out the Jew...Paul's ministry is to the Gentiles. Are you reading the same Bible I am?

No Torah in Ephesians 2?

No Jews in Ephesians 2?

The text suggests otherwise:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, (AS)who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into (AW)one new man, thus establishing peace,

I trust that I need not point out that the "Law of commandments" is a clear reference to the Law of Moses, even if that were not otherwise clear by context.

 

[Panin]

I'm just shaking my head. How can you possibly not see that Paul is talking to a body of believers...he is not, in any way shape or form, speaking about the Torah. Have you read Eph. 1? Don't you see who he is talking to here? Point out the Torah...point out the Jew...Paul's ministry is to the Gentiles. Are you reading the same Bible I am?

No Torah in Ephesians 2?

No Jews in Ephesians 2?

The text suggests otherwise:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, (AS)who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into (AW)one new man, thus establishing peace,

I trust that I need not point out that the "Law of commandments" is a clear reference to the Law of Moses, even if that were not otherwise clear by context.

Did you get circumsized as part of your salvation? If not, you are not following the law of Moses, therfore you are unsaved. Also if you are under the law of Moses, you can not nor ever will be saved. Because you have undoubtedly broken this law at some stage, and the punishment for breaking the law is death.

 

[Drew]

In that case go ahead and tell me how one is saved initially, then explain in detail how one stays saved, IE what works one has to do on a continual daily basis to remain saved?

I have addressed this in detail in many many posts, which you seem to have not read. That's no crime - I have not read all the posts either.

So I will repeat. Paul's argument is this: the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer "conforms" them to the image of the Son - Romans 8 -so that they will indeed manifest the good works that will qualify them for salvation. The Spirit is a gift of pure grace alone, appropriated by faith in the atoning work of Christ alone. If the faith is real, the Spirit is given and its the Spirit's job - not ours - to produce the good works. And since this is the Spirit of God, that goal will most assuredly be achieved.

So the believer indeed has assurance of salvation, even though ultimate salvation is based on good works.

 

[Drew]

Followed by: After one is "saved", when exactly can they loose their salvation and what one must do to avoid this happening.

Even though I deeply respect the views of people like Free and francedesales, I am inclined to believe that a genuine commitment of faith guarantees ultimate salvation, following the model of my previous post.

All you have done is attempt to refute what it is irrefuteably the biblical salvation through grace, you have not done that, nor have you explained an alternate way to be saved and more importantly to remain SAVED.

Well, I have presented many detailed Biblical arguments, so I suggest that you actually engage them and not make claims for which you provide no evidence, that is, that I am denying anything from the Bible.

 

[Panin]

In that case go ahead and tell me how one is saved initially, then explain in detail how one stays saved, IE what works one has to do on a continual daily basis to remain saved?

I have addressed this in detail in many many posts, which you seem to have not read. That's no crime - I have not read all the posts either.

So I will repeat. Paul's argument is this: the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer "conforms" them to the image of the Son - Romans 8 -so that they will indeed manifest the good works that will qualify them for salvation. The Spirit is a gift of pure grace alone, appropriated by faith in the atoning work of Christ alone. If the faith is real, the Spirit is given and its the Spirit's job - not ours - to produce the good works. And since this is the Spirit of God, that goal will most assuredly be achieved.
So the believer indeed has assurance of salvation, even though ultimate salvation is based on good works.

Im sorry but with the last sentence you have blatantly contradicted everything you said in the first paragraph.

This is the active promotion of another faith outside of the Christian faith, and it againts forum guidelines. Why is it allowed? Can a moderator please answer why this is allowed.

 

[Drew]

Did you get circumsized as part of your salvation? If not, you are not following the law of Moses, therfore you are unsaved. Also if you are under the law of Moses, you can not nor ever will be saved. Because you have undoubtedly broken this law at some stage, and the punishment for breaking the law is death.

I am not a Jew and am therefore not under the Law of Moses. I cannot break a law that does not apply to me. And even I were a Jew, the Law of Moses was retired at the cross.

I am not sure what you argument is here.

 

[Panin]

Did you get circumsized as part of your salvation? If not, you are not following the law of Moses, therfore you are unsaved. Also if you are under the law of Moses, you can not nor ever will be saved. Because you have undoubtedly broken this law at some stage, and the punishment for breaking the law is death.

I am not a Jew and am therefore not under the Law of Moses. I cannot break a law that does not apply to me. And even I were a Jew, the Law of Moses was retired at the cross.

I am not sure what you argument is here.

You believe in works as part of your salvation, circumsision is an essential work required of God under the law of WORKS. You don't seem to realise that a works based salvation envolved following and keeping the whole law of God. But I would prefer it if you would address my previous post regarding your obvious contradiction in beliefs. This is just a red herring.

Remember you have used the scriptures that the Law and keeping the commadmnets does not go away.

 

[Drew]

Im sorry but with the last sentence you have blatantly contradicted everything you said in the first paragraph.

How? Please tell me precisely where I have contradicted myself?

This is the active promotion of another faith outside of the Christian faith, and it againts forum guidelines. Why is it allowed? Can a moderator please answer why this is allowed.

Whatever position the moderators may take on this, I stand by the transcript of this thread - I have argued my position with constant reference to the Scriptures. There really is no debate about this.

You do not share my conclusion. Fine. But's its interesting that you do not engage my Ephesians 2:8-9 argument, not to mention many other arguments that appeal to Romans 8, 2 Cor 5. Look - you are free to disagree, but I suggest you will gain credibility if you actually engage the arguments.

 

[Drew]

You believe in works as part of your salvation, circumsision is an essential work required of God under the law of WORKS.

No. You clearly have not read my posts. I have never, ever, ever, ever, stated that doing the works of the Law of Moses are required for salvation. In fact, I have repeatedly stated the opposite - doing the works of the Law of Moses do not justify anyone.

 

[Panin]

Im sorry but with the last sentence you have blatantly contradicted everything you said in the first paragraph.

How? Please tell me precisely where I have contradicted myself?

This is the active promotion of another faith outside of the Christian faith, and it againts forum guidelines. Why is it allowed? Can a moderator please answer why this is allowed.

Whatever position the moderators may take on this, I stand by the transcript of this thread - I have argued my position with constant reference to the Scriptures. There really is no debate about this.

You do not share my conclusion. Fine. But's its interesting that you do not engage my Ephesians 2:8-9 argument, not to mention many other arguments that appeal to Romans 8, 2 Cor 5. Look - you are free to disagree, but I suggest you will gain credibility if you actually engage the arguments.

You said the work of grace and works is based entirely on the holy spirit (which I agree with) then you ended with saying ULTIMATE SALVATION IS BASED ON WORKS IE NOT CHRIST.

You have not clarified (in this post at least) if these works are manifested by the holy spirit or if these works are manifested out of a motivation to earn/keep/maintain your salvation and you have made it clear that the later is self motivation in other posts, which is clearly a contradiction. So stop playing around, you know the fundamental differences in this debate that have been going on for nearly 70 pages now. If you are no going to play dumb I see little point in continuing a discussion with you.

 

[Drew]

You said the work of grace and works is based entirely on the holy spirit (which I agree with) then you ended with saying works is essential for salvation. You have not clarified (in this post at least) if these works are manifested by the holy spirit or if these works are manifested out of a motivation to earn/keep/maintain your salvation and you have made it clear that the later is self motivation in other post, which is clearly a contradiction. So stop playing around, you know the fundametal differences in the debate that has been going on for nearly 7o pages now. If you are no going to play dumb I see little point in continuing a discussion with you.

Please do not blame me for your failure to exercise care in your reading.

I have repeatedly stated, including in a recent direct answer to you, that it is the Spirit who produces these works. Where have I ever said anything that suggests otherwise? I believe I have been entirely consistent about this.

 

[Drew]

You said the work of grace and works is based entirely on the holy spirit (which I agree with) then you ended with saying ULTIMATE SALVATION IS BASED ON WORKS IE NOT CHRIST.

I never ever ever said anything to the effect that our salvation is not based on Christ. Please read my posts with care and do not misrepresent me - you are bearing false witness here, although I will assume that it is not intentional.