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Hi Uncle J
That's similar to how I saw the Biblical timeline. God lets things be one way for thousands of years, then changes his mind so then it's a different way for thousands of years, only to then (thousands of years later) finally fix it all. Makes no sense.
But maybe you saw it wrong. Maybe God doesn't let things be one way for thousands of years then changes His mind. Maybe God created this realm of existence for the life of man and what He's doing is culling out those among us who would humble ourselves before Him and believe. Then God is going make a different eternal existence for the two groups. The believers and the unbelievers. Maybe that's how God wants you to see it, and is how He explains it.

That's kind of the thing about science....religious beliefs don't enter into the equation, so if scientific conclusions conflict with someone's religious beliefs, oh well, that's their problem.
Again, based on what really is the truth about these things. I would agree that religious beliefs don't enter into scientific studies. But I also posit then, that for the things of God, they would have no understanding.
Making things one way, but doing so in a manner that makes it look like they came about another way is inherently deceitful.
Ok.
That sort of mindset is an instant turnoff for me. Any faith that says "God didn't want us to study that" isn't for me.
If we believe the Scripture account of sin, then we know that God warned Adam and Eve not to mess with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Would that also be a turn off for you that God doesn't want you to test the flavor and pleasing aroma of that fruit?

Anyway, I don't want to appear to be proselytizing in my discussions with you. So I'll just say that yes, it does take a certain amount of faith to believe that there is a God. That's also what God tells us.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

And you don't believe that.

God bless,
Ted
 
But maybe you saw it wrong. Maybe God doesn't let things be one way for thousands of years then changes His mind. Maybe God created this realm of existence for the life of man and what He's doing is culling out those among us who would humble ourselves before Him and believe. Then God is going make a different eternal existence for the two groups. The believers and the unbelievers. Maybe that's how God wants you to see it, and is how He explains it.
That seems like a very insecure "god" to me and really doesn't make much sense. To be clear, when you say "a different eternal existence" for unbelievers, you're talking about eternal torture in hell, right?

Again, based on what really is the truth about these things. I would agree that religious beliefs don't enter into scientific studies. But I also posit then, that for the things of God, they would have no understanding.
Flat-earthers can say the same thing. Heck, anyone who believes in anything, no matter how bizarre or contrary to observed reality, can.

If we believe the Scripture account of sin, then we know that God warned Adam and Eve not to mess with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Would that also be a turn off for you that God doesn't want you to test the flavor and pleasing aroma of that fruit?
Any faith that teaches that knowledge is bad isn't for me.

Anyway, I don't want to appear to be proselytizing in my discussions with you. So I'll just say that yes, it does take a certain amount of faith to believe that there is a God. That's also what God tells us.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

And you don't believe that.

God bless,
Ted
Nope, I sure don't. My default setting with most things is to doubt it until I see sufficient evidence to conclude otherwise. As soon as I hear "you have to have faith", that's usually enough to make me walk away.
 
Hi Uncle J
That seems like a very insecure "god" to me and really doesn't make much sense.

He's an awesomely powerful God, but His testimony to us does seem to explain that He has feelings and emotions of love and concern similar to ours. He is not insecure, but He does care for us. And I think maybe I should explain that God has promised that the eternal life will be one of joy, peace, satisfaction and love for one another as we live upon the new earth. The purpose for God's separating the wicked from the righteous, isn't because of His insecurity. It's because that's how He will provide that eternal existence that He has promised us. He has to separate the wheat from the chaff, as the Scriptures describe it, so that there won't be any unrepentant sinners. The people for whom God is going to provide the eternal life that Jesus describes for us is going to be those who have believed Him. Everyone else will be set somewhere else. A place that Jesus describes as being an existence of torment. Not by the hand of God, but by virtue that we'll be living an existence with all of the wicked and, if we believe the Scriptures, all of the demon angels.

So, it's not some insecurity in God's nature that He's going to do this separating. And it's not some insecurity in His nature that He's going to save those who accept His offer of grace and forgiveness. It will be His fulfilling that for which He created this realm

Look, God started out in the beginning making man. He told man to go forth and multiply and as things went along He told us of our nature to sin, but that we could overcome the penalty for that sin, by trusting in His Son. The baby that He prepared for us as His servant to come and testify to us who his Father (God) is and what his Father wants for us and how His Father wants us to live. Then, in accordance with the requirement of his Father that some sacrifice had to be made for our sin to be washed away/overlooked however you want to put that, he made that sacrifice for us. God used the very hands of His own people that He had raised up and for some 1500 years had had them performing the Passover observance. Those Jews that were trained in the Passover, then completed the final Passover requirement for our eternal destination.

If you read the Scriptures, where it talks about the law when Moses was giving it to the people, there was no mention that keeping that law would give them eternal life. No, the rewards for keeping the Mosaic law were all merely blessings to be received in this life. It wasn't until Jesus paid that ultimate sacrifice that the Jews had been practicing for 1500 years that anyone would be found worthy to be saved. That, my friend, is why it's called 'the new covenant'. It is not going to be like the old one when He brought them forth from Egypt. God says that!! That exact explanation is in the Scriptures.

He is not insecure. He is working out a wonderful plan to save some of us. It's available to all of us, but the Scriptures are pretty clear that not everyone is going to take advantage of it.

Flat-earthers can say the same thing. Heck, anyone who believes in anything, no matter how bizarre or contrary to observed reality, can.
No, flat earthers just think that somewhere in there, in God's choice of metaphorically speaking of the earth, He has used metaphors that represent flat things, but they're just metaphors and it is only to describe a certain character of the creation. He speaks of the four corners of the earth, to make a metaphorical expression to denote that He's speaking of the whole earth. Flat earthers have grabbed on to that and claim that means the earth is flat because God speaks of it having four corners. And there are a couple of other similar uses of metaphorical language that do point out a flatness, in the metaphor. But God's word never says that the earth is flat and in Job we read that the earth is a circle suspended in the universe. And we have pictures to deny that reality. Not so on this issue of the creation, do we have any pictures that we can take of the creation event. It's done! It's over. But we can still look at the earth and see that it isn't flat.

They're confused and without understanding. And it's sad, the damage that they do to the cause of Christ in looking so silly. And I imagine that you could say the same thing about me. But I don't believe the statement, "For in six days God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in it." is metaphorical.

So please, I hope you don't liken my testimony as being the same as the flat-earthers.
Any faith that teaches that knowledge is bad isn't for me.
Right, I understand that, but that does appear to be an understanding of God, and God does know that it's going to happen. In fact, one of the notations of things that will be happening as we get closer to the end is that knowledge will increase greatly upon the earth. Now that's knowledge, not wisdom. The knowing of things. And yes, if the account of the Garden and the tree that sits in the middle of it is true, God did have some resistance to Adam and Eve gaining that kind of knowledge. For now they know of good and evil and we must not let them eat from the tree of life any longer.

Now, if that's a personal issue with you, that you feel it's wrong that you can't spend your life searching to know everything about everything that you can bring to your mind or desire. then so it must be.
Nope, I sure don't. My default setting with most things is to doubt it until I see sufficient evidence to conclude otherwise. As soon as I hear "you have to have faith", that's usually enough to make me walk away.
Got it.

God bless,
Ted
 
He is not insecure
I disagree. Any "god" whose demands are "worship me or be sent to eternal torture" is ridiculously insecure. Pretty darned cruel too.

He has to separate the wheat from the chaff, as the Scriptures describe it, so that there won't be any unrepentant sinners.
Why? Why does he "have to"? Does this "god" have no other choice?

The people for whom God is going to provide the eternal life that Jesus describes for us is going to be those who have believed Him. Everyone else will be set somewhere else. A place that Jesus describes as being an existence of torment. Not by the hand of God, but by virtue that we'll be living an existence with all of the wicked and, if we believe the Scriptures, all of the demon angels.
?????? Not by the hand of God? Who created all this? Who set up all the rules? What if in the afterlife I refuse to go to hell? What will God do?

Look, God started out in the beginning making man. He told man to go forth and multiply and as things went along He told us of our nature to sin, but that we could overcome the penalty for that sin, by trusting in His Son.
Not for the first few thousand years.

The baby that He prepared for us as His servant to come and testify to us who his Father (God) is and what his Father wants for us and how His Father wants us to live. Then, in accordance with the requirement of his Father that some sacrifice had to be made for our sin to be washed away/overlooked however you want to put that, he made that sacrifice for us. God used the very hands of His own people that He had raised up and for some 1500 years had had them performing the Passover observance. Those Jews that were trained in the Passover, then completed the final Passover requirement for our eternal destination.

If you read the Scriptures, where it talks about the law when Moses was giving it to the people, there was no mention that keeping that law would give them eternal life. No, the rewards for keeping the Mosaic law were all merely blessings to be received in this life. It wasn't until Jesus paid that ultimate sacrifice that the Jews had been practicing for 1500 years that anyone would be found worthy to be saved. That, my friend, is why it's called 'the new covenant'. It is not going to be like the old one when He brought them forth from Egypt. God says that!! That exact explanation is in the Scriptures.

He is not insecure. He is working out a wonderful plan to save some of us. It's available to all of us, but the Scriptures are pretty clear that not everyone is going to take advantage of it.
That makes absolutely no sense to me, especially as a way a "god" would go about things.

No, flat earthers just think that somewhere in there, in God's choice of metaphorically speaking of the earth, He has used metaphors that represent flat things, but they're just metaphors and it is only to describe a certain character of the creation. He speaks of the four corners of the earth, to make a metaphorical expression to denote that He's speaking of the whole earth. Flat earthers have grabbed on to that and claim that means the earth is flat because God speaks of it having four corners. And there are a couple of other similar uses of metaphorical language that do point out a flatness, in the metaphor. But God's word never says that the earth is flat and in Job we read that the earth is a circle suspended in the universe. And we have pictures to deny that reality. Not so on this issue of the creation, do we have any pictures that we can take of the creation event. It's done! It's over. But we can still look at the earth and see that it isn't flat.

They're confused and without understanding. And it's sad, the damage that they do to the cause of Christ in looking so silly. And I imagine that you could say the same thing about me. But I don't believe the statement, "For in six days God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in it." is metaphorical.

So please, I hope you don't liken my testimony as being the same as the flat-earthers.
You missed the point entirely. The reasoning you put forth of "if God played a role, science can never truly understand it" can be employed by anyone whose beliefs are contradicted by scientific findings.

Right, I understand that, but that does appear to be an understanding of God, and God does know that it's going to happen. In fact, one of the notations of things that will be happening as we get closer to the end is that knowledge will increase greatly upon the earth. Now that's knowledge, not wisdom. The knowing of things. And yes, if the account of the Garden and the tree that sits in the middle of it is true, God did have some resistance to Adam and Eve gaining that kind of knowledge. For now they know of good and evil and we must not let them eat from the tree of life any longer.
Which again makes no sense to me and makes this god seem even more insecure (it preferred its creation remain ignorant).

Now, if that's a personal issue with you, that you feel it's wrong that you can't spend your life searching to know everything about everything that you can bring to your mind or desire. then so it must be.
Any religion that discourages questioning, knowledge, and learning isn't for me.
 
Yes protestant theologians object strongly to what they believed to be false ideas, there is nothing new or unusual in that.
There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must...invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth.
Martin Luther
The Christian is not to compromise so as to obscure the distinction between good and evil, and is to avoid the errors of] those dreamers who have a spirit of bitterness and contradiction, who reprove everything and prevent the order of nature. We will see some who are so deranged, not only in religion but who in all things reveal their monstrous nature, that they will say that the sun does not move, and that it is the earth which shifts and turns. When we see such minds we must indeed confess that the devil posses them, and that God sets them before us as mirrors, in order to keep us in his fear. So it is with all who argue out of pure malice, and who happily make a show of their imprudence. When they are told: “That is hot,” they will reply: “No, it is plainly cold.” When they are shown an object that is black, they will say that it is white, or vice versa. Just like the man who said that snow is black; for although it is perceived and known by all to be white, yet he clearly wished to contradict the fact. And so it is that they are madmen who would try to change the natural order, and even to dazzle eyes and benumb their senses.
—John Calvin, “Sermon on 1 Corinthians 10:19-24

No, there's nothing unusual in this. But God has the final say in the real world.
 
I disagree. Any "god" whose demands are "worship me or be sent to eternal torture" is ridiculously insecure. Pretty darned cruel too.
That is not the Christian God.

Some would make Him so. But that's a different issue. He told good Jewish religionists to emulate a heretical Samaritan who loved his neighbor in preference to a religiously-correct Levite who did not.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

According to Jesus, there are two commandments on which everything else depends. Love God. Love your neighbor.
Everything else depends on that. And you love God by this:


Matthew 25:34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.


Notice that the people questioning Him are not Christians, for they would know exactly what He meant. They are genuinely puzzled as to when they did anything for Jesus. And He explains to them why.
 
I wish more Christians were like you Barbarian. You remind me of one of my Christian friends who says he tries as much as he can to emulate Christ in his daily life (you know...."Christ like").

Unfortunately, too many American denominations and/or churches are based on the Puritan framework of punishment-reward, with them being the vehicle for carrying it out.
 
Hi Uncle J
Why? Why does he "have to"? Does this "god" have no other choice?
Yes He has to if He's to fulfill the promise that He's made to rid the earth of sin. He has to separate the sinners from those who accepted His offer of mercy.

Now, it's certainly understandable that we, in our humanness don't want that to happen, but it is what the Scriptures explain to us.

If you find that some condemnation of the nature of God, then so be it. But it is what the Scriptures detail.

God bless,
Ted
 
Hi again Uncle J
?????? Not by the hand of God? Who created all this? Who set up all the rules? What if in the afterlife I refuse to go to hell? What will God do?
Oh friend, trust me, you're not going to beat God by refusing to take the destiny that He has prepared for each group. That just isn't a consideration that you'll be able to make. I imagine that even Barbarian will agree with that. What do you think Barbarian? On the day of God's judgment will those who don't agree with God and the place where He puts them be able to stand against Him in rebellion?

God bless,
Ted
 
Oh friend, trust me, you're not going to beat God by refusing to take the destiny that He has prepared for each group. That just isn't a consideration that you'll be able to make. I imagine that even @Barbarian will agree with that. What do you think @Barbarian? On the day of God's judgment will those who don't agree with God and the place where He puts them be able to stand against Him in rebellion?
I don't think God threw Satan into Hell. I think it's more like C.S. Lewis wrote. Satan confronted God, demanding to know what He was really up to, pretending to be caring for miserable humans. When he said he just couldn't believe what God told him, God said, "I truly wish that you could."

After which Satan angrily withdrew from God's presence. I expect that's what we'll see at judgement from others who join Satan in Hell (which is Hell precisely because it is separation from God). Being in Hell is rebellion against God.
This is not a simple as it sounds. Lots of us wish we could be entirely aligned with God and His commandments. But none of us are. Until we completely set our own desires aside, we can't do it. That's what He was saying when He said "let the one without sin first throw a stone." Not "throw the first stone." It was "which of you is without sin?" And the shamed crowd dispersed, without stoning the woman. Then to her; "go and sin no more."
 
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I wish more Christians were like you Barbarian. You remind me of one of my Christian friends who says he tries as much as he can to emulate Christ in his daily life (you know...."Christ like").

Unfortunately, too many American denominations and/or churches are based on the Puritan framework of punishment-reward, with them being the vehicle for carrying it out.
Have you read Thomas a Kempis' An Imitation of Christ? He was a Catholic theologian, but I understand that many Protestants admire his simple and Christ-centered approach. Might be worth a read.
 
I posted this a while back, but I think it's worth reading:

“You're my best friend, Jan, you've been with me through everything, and I've not always been a good friend to you.” he hesitated. “I know this sounds weird, but I've grown to love you.”

Jan smiled. “You know, I love you too. And when you weren't always the best friend, you always tried to make it up to me. And when you were being a friend to people like Jonathan when he lost his job, you were being a good friend to me, too.”

“Something weird has happened the last few weeks, Jan. Hear me out and tell me I'm not going crazy.” Jan looked over his glasses at Carl, and lifted one eyebrow, but said nothing.

“I've been having these terrible dreams where Miranda died and left me alone, and all I could do was cry. I was alone for years, grieving for her.”

“Have you told Miranda?”

“Yes, and when I told her, she just smiled and kissed me and said “well, it's over, and you have me here and now; I'm not going anywhere.”

“That's it?”

“No, it's not. This is the really weird part. My knee has stopped bothering me. And I bounce out of bed in the morning like a kid. And even the people I meet during the day are better to be with, and seem happier than before. Everyone I know. Is this what dementia is like?”

“No, it's not dementia. That would be different. You're just settling in.”

Carl stared at Jan.

“What's going on, Jan, tell me.”

“What if things went on this way forever for you?”

“I'd be perfectly happy with that. If only.”

Jan smiled kindly at him.

“Soon those dreams will go away, and they'll never bother you again. They are in the past, and the past is gone. Things that happened in the past are just dreams that will soon fade away. All there is here, is the now. “

“Here?”

“Yes, Carl, here is where you were meant to be, where I wanted everyone to be. You'll be with Miranda forever and I will be your friend forever. It takes a little time to adjust, that's all.” You took care of me and I'll take care of you forever.”

“When did I take care of you?”

“When you passed that money quietly to Jonathan when he lost his job. When you gave up your Saturday to help move the Carroll family when they were evicted. Whenever you took care of them, you took care of me.”

Carl stared, open-mouthed at Jan, who was still smiling, looking slightly amused. He slid off the bar stool and went to his knees.

“Get up, Carl” Jan chuckled. “we don't do that kind of thing here.” He helped Carl back to his seat.

“But I don't deserve this.”

“No, you don't. But it's my gift to you, for loving me. And yes, when you loved those people who were hurting, you were loving me.”

“What can I do to thank you... Jan?”

“Jan is fine. I like the name. All you have to do is love me. And love everyone here with you. All I ever expected of you. Be happy with Miranda.

And be sure you're here at Doug's now and then on Friday afternoons for a beer or two with me, hear? Have a great eternity my friend.”
 
Hi Barbarian
“Jan is fine. I like the name. All you have to do is love me. And love everyone here with you. All I ever expected of you. Be happy with Miranda.


Wow! What a touching love story and I think that's wonderful that Jan decided to love and bring union between herself and, well her best friend.

But, may I ask a question? We live on an earth of several billion people. What about all the Sue's that don't accept the love relationship that your imagined friendship teaches made Jan apparently choose of her own freewill to accept? What happens to them in your version of what the Scriptures say? All those Sue's get to the end of their lives and they don't want to love one another, so to speak. What happens to them after they die?

God bless,
Ted
 
But, may I ask a question? We live on an earth of several billion people. What about all the Sue's that don't accept the love relationship that your imagined friendship teaches made Jan apparently choose of her own freewill to accept? What happens to them in your version of what the Scriptures say? All those Sue's get to the end of their lives and they don't want to love one another, so to speak. What happens to them after they die?
Jesus says that those who don't love will go to stay with the Devil and his angels. Not a good thing. BTW, in some places, "Jan" is a guy's name. Not that it really matters, I suppose. Toward the end, Karl suddenly becomes aware of Who Jan really is, and where they actually are.
 
Jesus says that those who don't love will go to stay with the Devil and his angels. Not a good thing. BTW, in some places, "Jan" is a guy's name. Not that it really matters, I suppose. Toward the end, Karl suddenly becomes aware of Who Jan really is.
Yea, I will admit I didn't read the story particularly carefully.

Anyway, I understand your position and I'm glad that Karl finally understood. Hopefully, through the truth of God's word, others will, too.

God bless,
Ted
 
There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must...invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth.
Martin Luther
The Christian is not to compromise so as to obscure the distinction between good and evil, and is to avoid the errors of] those dreamers who have a spirit of bitterness and contradiction, who reprove everything and prevent the order of nature. We will see some who are so deranged, not only in religion but who in all things reveal their monstrous nature, that they will say that the sun does not move, and that it is the earth which shifts and turns. When we see such minds we must indeed confess that the devil posses them, and that God sets them before us as mirrors, in order to keep us in his fear. So it is with all who argue out of pure malice, and who happily make a show of their imprudence. When they are told: “That is hot,” they will reply: “No, it is plainly cold.” When they are shown an object that is black, they will say that it is white, or vice versa. Just like the man who said that snow is black; for although it is perceived and known by all to be white, yet he clearly wished to contradict the fact. And so it is that they are madmen who would try to change the natural order, and even to dazzle eyes and benumb their senses.
—John Calvin, “Sermon on 1 Corinthians 10:19-24

No, there's nothing unusual in this. But God has the final say in the real world.

So they spoke/wrote according to their knowledge.
Scientist do the same. Fred Holey would not accept the, 5hen new idea that the universe had a beginning.
Geologists back in the 1930s could not accept the idea of tectonic plates.

That Christians opposed ideas is not new, you oppose biblical ideas because of your views on evolution.
Is that grounds for dismissing you?
Is Calvin and Luthers views on the science of the day grounds for dismissing them?
 
So they spoke/wrote according to their knowledge.
Right. God didn't correct things in scripture that didn't pertain to His message to us. So the Hebrew conception of a flat Earth under a domed sky is in scripture. But it doesn't matter.
Scientist do the same. Fred Holey would not accept the, 5hen new idea that the universe had a beginning.
Ironically Hoyle, an atheist, objected to the Big Bang (discovered by a Christian clergyman) because it implied a beginning to the universe.
Geologists back in the 1930s could not accept the idea of tectonic plates.
For good reason. Wegener couldn't explain how they could move. When mid-oceanic ridges were discovered, then the hypothesis made sense and became a theory. (A theory is a hypothesis that has been repeatedly confirmed by evidence)
That Christians opposed ideas is not new, you oppose biblical ideas because of your views on evolution.
No. I oppose adding the new doctrines of creationism to the Bible. I accept it as is. And evolution has nothing to do with the reasons why we know that the creation story is not a literal history.

Is that grounds for dismissing you?
As I pointed out, I accept it as it is. It neither supports nor denies the observed fact of evolution.

Is Calvin and Luthers views on the science of the day grounds for dismissing them?
They merely added their own wishes to scripture. It doesn't mean that they weren't Christians. They were just in error in some things.
 
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