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The believer’s standing (position) is the way the Father sees him in His Son, as perfect in Him. But his state (condition) is the way the Father sees him in his daily walk, which is sinful and erring and needs to be developed and improved.

“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand” (Rom 5:1, 2). “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand” (1 Cor 15:1). “That I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state. For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state” (Phil 2:19, 20).

Nearly all the false doctrines that teach some form of human works or merit for salvation are based upon Scriptures that deal with the believer’s state and have nothing to do with salvation at all. God’s Word would not be complete if it did not teach both the sinner how to be saved and the believer how to conduct himself after he is saved. Many of the difficulties in understanding the Scriptures would disappear if we would always ask: is this verse about our standing or our state?

One notable instance of this principle of Bible understanding is found in the first epistle to the Corinthians. In the first chapter, Paul refers to them as saints who “are sanctified.” But in the third chapter he says they are “carnal”, or fleshly. As to their standing, they are sanctified in Christ Jesus—perfect in Him. But in their actual earthly walk, or state, they were carnal. In their standing they are safe, as secure and perfect as the work of the Cross can make them. But in their state they need exhortation and growth.

Again, in Colossians 2:10, “And ye are complete in Him.” This refers to the perfect standing which the believer has in Christ. It cannot be improved upon; it is already “complete” in Christ. Yet in our walk we cannot say that we are sinless, for “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves” (1 John 1:8).

The Father looks upon every believer as if he were already in heaven, as far as his standing in concerned. This blessed truth is brought out in Ephesians 2:6, “And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” But as far as his earthly state is concerned while he is waiting the home-call, the believer is admonished thus: “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth” (Col 3:5). So we see that the believer is said to be both in heaven and on earth. “Standing and State” is the only explanation of this. Much more of the Word is given to instructions for the believer’s state than to his standing. His standing is heavenly, eternal and perfect. His state is earthly, temporary and imperfect.

- Unknown
 
The believer’s standing (position) is the way the Father sees him in His Son, as perfect in Him. But his state (condition) is the way the Father sees him in his daily walk, which is sinful and erring and needs to be developed and improved.

“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand” (Rom 5:1, 2). “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand” (1 Cor 15:1). “That I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state. For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state” (Phil 2:19, 20).

Nearly all the false doctrines that teach some form of human works or merit for salvation are based upon Scriptures that deal with the believer’s state and have nothing to do with salvation at all. God’s Word would not be complete if it did not teach both the sinner how to be saved and the believer how to conduct himself after he is saved. Many of the difficulties in understanding the Scriptures would disappear if we would always ask: is this verse about our standing or our state?

One notable instance of this principle of Bible understanding is found in the first epistle to the Corinthians. In the first chapter, Paul refers to them as saints who “are sanctified.” But in the third chapter he says they are “carnal”, or fleshly. As to their standing, they are sanctified in Christ Jesus—perfect in Him. But in their actual earthly walk, or state, they were carnal. In their standing they are safe, as secure and perfect as the work of the Cross can make them. But in their state they need exhortation and growth.

Again, in Colossians 2:10, “And ye are complete in Him.” This refers to the perfect standing which the believer has in Christ. It cannot be improved upon; it is already “complete” in Christ. Yet in our walk we cannot say that we are sinless, for “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves” (1 John 1:8).

The Father looks upon every believer as if he were already in heaven, as far as his standing in concerned. This blessed truth is brought out in Ephesians 2:6, “And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” But as far as his earthly state is concerned while he is waiting the home-call, the believer is admonished thus: “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth” (Col 3:5). So we see that the believer is said to be both in heaven and on earth. “Standing and State” is the only explanation of this. Much more of the Word is given to instructions for the believer’s state than to his standing. His standing is heavenly, eternal and perfect. His state is earthly, temporary and imperfect.

- Unknown

That my friend is a very important teaching. Recently, in the Bible study forum, there has been a lot of theology passed back and forth about "works" and sinless perfection. I hope those who were engaged in this argument would study your thread. From what I understand from your post, Our standing or our state needs to be understood because both positions that were argued, have been explained as to standing, which is sinless, and state, is works of denying the flesh.

Thank you for this timely post.
 
From what I understand from your post, Our standing or our state needs to be understood because both positions that were argued, have been explained as to standing, which is sinless, and state, is works of denying the flesh.
Thank you for this timely post.
Thank you Chopper for your input, on which I agree.
 
Great teaching. We can't get to heaven with works and we never have sinless perfection in this world. The world, the flesh, and the devil will make sure of that. We do, however, have an advocate with the Father for forgiveness of sin.
Hi IT - Thanks for your true reply. We cannot get to heaven on works but they "do follow us" (Rev 14:13), which only concern rewards or not. Good identification concerning self (old self or old nature), Satan and society (unbelievers), which are a constant opposition--esp. old self, which the Spirit addresses in us (not the body but the sinful nature--flesh Gal 5:17).

Blessings!
 
Nearly all the false doctrines that teach some form of human works or merit for salvation are based upon Scriptures that deal with the believer’s state and have nothing to do with salvation at all.
Nearly all false doctrines that teach "salvation without works" are based on the two errors of, first, ignoring the fact that to have faith without being faithful (doing the works required to be obedient to Jesus' commands) and, second, a denial of man's free will to choose to be faithful or to refuse to be faithful.

Being faithful and being obedient (doing what Jesus said to do) are not a means of "earning salvation", they are what a believer practices (so he can get good at it) because he believes, not because the Holy Spirit operates him like a puppet. The good works are not "automatic"; they are the evidence that a person is exerting his will and his effort to do what he has faith that God desires him to do.

And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. (Heb 11:6 RSV)

After that verse, there follows a list of saints who acted on their faith; the believed and did something which demonstrated their belief.

At the conclusion of that list, the author said, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Heb 12:1-2 RSV)
To "lay aside every weight" requires that the believer DO something.
To "run with perseverance" requires that the believer DO something.

It is unfortunate that the "salvation without works" message encourages Christians to think that no work on their part is necessary. That is a false teaching.
Paul stated that we were created to do good works which God has personally assigned us to do. (Eph 2:10, one of the many ignored verses of the "faith alone" preachers)
Jesus told us to let our light so shine before men that they see our GOOD WORKS and give glory to God. (Mat 5:16) In order for men to see our good works we actually have to DO them.

James is quite clear in chapter 2 of his letter that faith without works cannot save anyone.

Heb 10:23-24 (RSV) Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

Good post; My 2 kopecks.


iakov the fool
 
Nearly all false doctrines that teach "salvation without works" are based on the two errors of, first, ignoring the fact that to have faith without being faithful (doing the works required to be obedient to Jesus' commands) and, second, a denial of man's free will to choose to be faithful or to refuse to be faithful.
Good reply and appreciate the comments! Those who are born again will evince their faith by their works, and their works are initiated and perpetuated by God "working" in them the desire to do them (Phl 2:13)--by His Spirit.

"You have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren" (1Pet 1:22).

Blessings!
 
works are initiated and perpetuated by God "working" in them the desire to do them (Phl 2:13)--by His Spirit.
We must not understand that "inner working" of God to eliminate the necessity for man to exercise his free will to co-operate with God.

A great example of such cooperation is when Mary said to the angel Gabriel, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." (Luke 1:38 RSV)

Man chooses to submit to God's will over the objection of the lusts of the flesh which constantly assert their desire to be the god of every person's life.

Rom 7:22-23(RSV) For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.

jim
 
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We must not understand that to eliminate the necessitate for man to exercise his free will to co-operate with God.
A grerat example of such cooperation is when Mary said to the angel Gabriel, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." (Luke 1:38 RSV)

jim
Yes I agree, but with me it's my understanding that the will (desire) of the saint is constantly molded by God, in that the majority of what we do is the result of God constantly giving us the mind and heart for His pleasure (Phl 2:13). Otherwise we would be overrun by the desires and will of the old man (Gal 5:17).
 
Yes I agree, but with me it's my understanding that the will (desire) of the saint is constantly molded by God, in that the majority of what we do is the result of God constantly giving us the mind and heart for His pleasure (Phl 2:13). Otherwise we would be overrun by the desires and will of the old man (Gal 5:17).
Agreed.
 
James is quite clear in chapter 2 of his letter that faith without works cannot save anyone.

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Remarkable that you would actually try to teach that '"faith without works cant save anyone.""
Well, at least this time you didnt try to teach that we are regenerated in water.
Thanks for not posting that piece of remarkable error again., JP
So, your "stuff" is a typical doctrinal left turn that happens when someone gets their idea of Salvation from James instead of from, "The Grace of God".
Your "stuff", is to teach that faith + works saves you, which of course is works based heresy that denies the Cross or the blood on it..
= Typical Galatians 1:8
The fact is.... neither faith nor works saves anyone, as that would be you saving yourself by them.
The answer is....: God SAVED you, based on Jesus dying for you, as this is Salvation or Redemption.
All faith does is meet God's condition for Him to Save you.
What literally is used to save you is Jesus's sacrifice.
Strange that the 3 main offenders of the Atonement on this forum are JP, JB, and JLB.
Same church????
Same error.
 
Remarkable that you would actually try to teach that '"faith without works cant save anyone.""
Hi Kidron - I believe the point in James concerning faith and works is that if there is faith there will be works (fruit of the Spirit), and works "justifies" (not render righteousness but show or display righteousness) faith. Thus if there is no evidence of the Spirit's works (fruit), it's because there is no faith.

Blessings!
 
Hi Kidron - I believe the point in James concerning faith and works is that if there is faith there will be works (fruit of the Spirit), and works "justifies" (not render righteousness but show or display righteousness) faith. Thus if there is no evidence of the Spirit's works (fruit), it's because there is no faith.

Blessings!
-
Yes, but JParkers point is not that..., which is what i was showing you.
JParker's point is that without works, you are going to hell, as your faith is proven dead "without works, so your salvation is lost, because of this, "state".
See, JParker is trying to prove, as all James & Matthew & Hebrews addicts will, that you can lose your salvation based on those epistles.
Is that your theology, also?
Do you actually believe that you can be unborn again with the Holy Spirit in you, while you are "in Christ" "seated in Heavenly places", = because you are a lazy do nothing believer?
I didnt get that reading from your thread.....???????????
Am i wrong about you?
 
Is that your theology, also?
Do you actually believe that you can be unborn again with the Holy Spirit in you, while you are "in Christ" "seated in Heavenly places", because you are a do nothing believer?
I didnt get that reading from your thread.....???????????
Not my belief! Maybe I'm misunderstanding someone. I'll wait for JP's replies. Thanks for you concern!
 
Not my belief! Maybe I'm misunderstanding someone. I'll wait for JP's replies. Thanks for you concern!
=
No need to waste your time waiting.
Life is too short.

Here is JP's salvation theology, as he just posted it, which is why i responded to it......

JP :
""""James is quite clear in chapter 2 of his letter that faith without works cannot save anyone."""""
 
James is quite clear in chapter 2 of his letter that faith without works cannot save anyone.
The truth here is that if there are no works (fruit of the Spirit) there is no faith. I understand what you mean because of the way his sentence is worded, but I still need to wait for his reply, and thanks again.
 
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See, JParker is trying to prove, as all James & Matthew & Hebrews addicts will, that you can lose your salvation based on those epistles.
Is that your theology, also?

I happen to be a James, Matthew and Hebrews addict too. Though I have not come to the same conclusions that many try to make from those writings. The writings shouldn't be diminished at the expense of holding up doctrines that can't hold up to those writings.

There are other avenues of legitimate scriptural harmony, even though they may be unpleasant to engage, personally. And yes, there are unpleasant things to engage with scriptures. We should not run and hide from them.

The two most important scriptures to "live" by in scriptural balance/harmony are Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 showing "us" that we will live by how many Words of God? All of them. It's quite difficult to "find LIVE" in the scriptures we DON'T like, but it is there to be had.

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And every reader/believer will initially fail to recognize that we "all" work iniquity. And will run and hide, rather than seeking HIS LIFE from those Words.


 
The truth here is that if there are no works (fruit of the Spirit) there is no faith. I understand what you mean because of the way his sentence is worded, but I still need to wait for his reply, and thanks again.
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Are you saying that if a born again believer on Monday is out soul winning, then from Tuesday till the next Sunday then dont have a second of God in their Head because they are binging online playing poker, that...those 6 days they are not practicing their faith-fruit they are lost, but that the one day they were soul winning they are saved?

So, are you saying that The Blood Atonement is inactive and not in effect if a person is not involved in spiritual fruit bearing if they are awake?

Explain to me exactly what makes you believe that being born again, stops being so?
Explain to me exactly what makes you think the Blood Atonement stops Redeeming those that are not "bearing fruit"?
 
The two most important scriptures to "live" by in scriptural balance/harmony are Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 showing "us" that we will live by how many Words of God? All of them. It's quite difficult to "find LIVE" in the scriptures we DON'T like, but it is there to be had.
True, and the "living" will show ("justify") if it be salvation or no, for without faith we are absented from grace, which is what we are saved "by"--"through" the gift of faith (Eph 2:8).

Appreciate you input Smaller!
 
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