Struggling at new church

[Testing]

Hi all. I've been out of fellowship for the best part of 20 years but have recently been regularly going to a new church for about 4 months now.

The church is theologically sound, the pastor is energetic and passionate, the church has community programs plus youth group, children's ministry etc.

When I first started fellowship, the senior pastor introduced himself to me and we spoke a little bit. He seemed genuine and interested in me as a person. After that, I noticed he never engaged with me anymore. A couple of times I've said hello and he's said hello and how are you? in return with no further conversation. His wife I have never spoken to at all.

I had a nice conversation in the beginning with the youth pastor. And same thing. No more conversations afterwards. I tried to engage with him recently and he just mumbled a few words and then walked away. I could clearly see by his facial expressions he was not interested in any dialogue with me. Ditto for the senior pastor. Whenever I say hello I see he's not interested in conversing with me and he just is being polite.

I am greatly discouraged and disheartened. The church is solid in every way but I have no engagement whatsoever with the pastors. Even worse I feel ignored. This is the first Sunday coming up that I want to have a break and not attend. I don't feel I'm of any value and am now considering trying another church fellowship. There is no way I consider these pastors shepherds to me in any way as I have no interactions with them. There are pastors to their church, but not a shepherd or influence to me personally.

I was hoping to get other people's thoughts and opinions. Thank you.

 

[Who Me]

How do you get on with the other church members?
Are there other people being ignored or marginalised?
If there are people you can talk to in the church raise this issue with them?
Lastly before you leave ask to talk with the minister and raise this issue.
It could be he has far to much to do for casual conversations on Sunday ( I doubt it )

It takes courage to raise unpopular issues, so as you are ready to leave ask about his unprofessional attitude, how open are the church finances, who owns the building,
( on one forum it was reported a church burnt down, the minister owed the building and retired with the insurance money ! )
there complaint procedure ( a child reports being touched inappropriately, how do they deal with it ) then add the accused is the ministers son!

These questions will get a reaction, if it's anger apologise and leave, open discussion gives hope that things could improve.

 

[Tenchi]

Hi all. I've been out of fellowship for the best part of 20 years but have recently been regularly going to a new church for about 4 months now.

The church is theologically sound, the pastor is energetic and passionate, the church has community programs plus youth group, children's ministry etc.

When I first started fellowship, the senior pastor introduced himself to me and we spoke a little bit. He seemed genuine and interested in me as a person. After that, I noticed he never engaged with me anymore. A couple of times I've said hello and he's said hello and how are you? in return with no further conversation. His wife I have never spoken to at all.

I had a nice conversation in the beginning with the youth pastor. And same thing. No more conversations afterwards. I tried to engage with him recently and he just mumbled a few words and then walked away. I could clearly see by his facial expressions he was not interested in any dialogue with me. Ditto for the senior pastor. Whenever I say hello I see he's not interested in conversing with me and he just is being polite.

I am greatly discouraged and disheartened. The church is solid in every way but I have no engagement whatsoever with the pastors. Even worse I feel ignored. This is the first Sunday coming up that I want to have a break and not attend. I don't feel I'm of any value and am now considering trying another church fellowship. There is no way I consider these pastors shepherds to me in any way as I have no interactions with them. There are pastors to their church, but not a shepherd or influence to me personally.

I was hoping to get other people's thoughts and opinions. Thank you.

Well, how many people are in the church? If there are two pastors overseeing, say, 120 attenders, how do you imagine they are to do so with full engagement with each of them? How are they to properly meet the expectations of all those who are attending their church when those expectations may vary widely and include things that are quite unreasonable?

I used to operate a martial arts dojo. Over the three decades I did so, I had many people come through the door of the dojo. The vast majority of those who did were idly curious, hobbyists, who just wanted to dabble a bit in the martial arts and get some exercise. They would come and go, lasting, on average, maybe two, or three, months. Was I to give them the same sort of attention, the same investment of my experience and teaching, as those who had trained with me for a decade or more? Obviously not. I had to choose between investing in those who had shown themselves serious students of the martial art I taught, or those who were, experience had shown, very likely to vanish in a few weeks. I didn't ignore the new students, of course, but until I had some evidence that they were going to stick with the training, I just couldn't extend my limited resources of time and energy to include them in serious, one-on-one instruction.

In the same way, your pastors have finite resources of time and energy. They can't fully engage with everyone. Now, if they are being stand-offish, cold and disinterested in their manner toward you, you ought to say so to them - lovingly, of course, but frankly. Pastors, like the rest of us, can get distracted and overly-busy, forgetting that the "work of the ministry" is people, not orders of service, or ministry schedules, or sermons.

My wife and I have attended a church for over a decade now in which carnality, and superficiality and disconnection are the norm. There are some few "bright spots" in the church, but, generally, the congregation is badly "leavened" and in need of spiritual revival. My wife and I have had many reasons to "abandon ship," to leave the church for "greener pastures," but we understand that cold, weak, sickly churches are the very places in need of people who love God enough, who are under His control sufficiently, to be used by Him to strengthen, and challenge, and reform them. In other words, we are at our church, not to be served, but to love and serve. This always means sacrifice of what we would like for the sake of what the church needs (1 John 4:7-11), just as Christ gave himself for the Church (Ephesians 5:25).

What I'm ultimately saying to you is that you should be to your church the person you wish to meet in it. Don't wait on the pastors to love you well. You initiate, you be the sort of interested, engaging, loving person you would like your pastors to be with you. Show them Christ. If all in every church were doing so, imagine how amazing the Church would be!

 

[jasonc]

Well, how many people are in the church? If there are two pastors overseeing, say, a 120 attenders, how do you imagine they are to do so with full engagement with each of them? How are they to properly meet the expectations of all those who are attending their church when those expectations may vary widely and include things that are quite unreasonable?

I used to operate a martial arts dojo. Over the three decades I did so, I had many people come through the door of the dojo. The vast majority of those who did were idly curious, hobbyists, who just wanted to dabble a bit in the martial arts and get some exercise. They would come and go, lasting, on average, maybe two, or three, months. Was I to give them the same sort of attention, the same investment of my experience and teaching, as those who had trained with me for a decade or more? Obviously not. I had to choose between investing in those who had shown themselves serious students of the martial art I taught, or those who were, experience had shown, very likely to vanish in a few weeks. I didn't ignore the new students, of course, but until I had some evidence that they were going to stick with the training, I just couldn't extend my limited resources of time and energy to include them in serious, one-on-one instruction.

In the same way, your pastors have finite resources of time and energy. They can't fully engage with everyone. Now, if they are being stand-offish, cold and disinterested in their manner toward you, you ought to say so to them - lovingly, of course, but frankly. Pastors, like the rest of us, can get distracted and overly-busy, forgetting that the "work of the ministry" is people, not orders of service, or ministry schedules, or sermons.

My wife and I have attended a church for over a decade now in which carnality, and superficiality and disconnection are the norm. There are some few "bright spots" in the church, but, generally, the congregation is badly "leavened" and in need of spiritual revival. My wife and I have had many reasons to "abandon ship," to leave the church for "greener pastures," but we understand that cold, weak, sickly churches are the very places in need of people who love God enough, who are under His control sufficiently, to be used by Him to strengthen, and challenge, and reform them. In other words, we are at our church, not to be served, but to love and serve. This always means sacrifice of what we would like for the sake of what the church needs (1 John 4:7-11), just as Christ gave himself for the Church (Ephesians 5:25).

What I'm ultimately saying to you is that you should be to your church the person you wish to meet in it. Don't wait on the pastors to love you well. You initiate, you be the sort of interested, engaging, loving person you would like your pastors to be with you. Show them Christ. If all in every church were doing so, imagine how amazing the Church would be!

What art did you teach ?

 

[hawkman]

The church is theologically sound, the pastor is energetic and passionate, the church has community programs plus youth group, children's ministry etc.

Are you currently working in any capacity within the various church programs being offered ? If not have you offered to pitch in and help in any way ? Do you have skills to offer ? Most pastors will be very glad to utilize what you have to offer .

 

[Tenchi]

What art did you teach ?

Classical Aikikai Aikido and "modernized" Aikijujutsu. I also dabbled in Russian Systema and karate.

 

[jasonc]

Classical Aikikai Aikido and "modernized" Aikijujutsu. I also dabbled in Russian Systema and karate.

Aikido the art of it takes years to get ikkyu down .

The sensei can make it work or make it look so useless.i have had both types .the first one could and did show it effectively and how to make it work through other one tried but the wheel of training never lets you .you have to figure out .you would have to know fugakai to get that .

 

[Tenchi]

Aikido the art of it takes years to get ikkyu down .

The sensei can make it work or make it look so useless.i have had both types .the first one could and did show it effectively and how to make it work through other one tried but the wheel of training never lets you .you have to figure out .you would have to know fugakai to get that .

Aikido is based on weapons-taking - the sword, tanto and jo, particularly - and in its longer, sweeping movements allows for the study of principles of martial movement in a way that I appreciate. But as a straight-up fighting art, modern Aikido is woefully lacking - mainly because those who study it now just polish the surface of the techniques. They have lost entirely the internal skills that the Founder of Aikido had mastered that would allow for what he called "takemusu aiki." Also, Aikido is not taught with careful attention to striking, which the Founder of Aikido said was 90% of Aikido. Without these internal and striking skills, Aikido has become a fancy dance, impossible to apply effectively in a modern combat circumstance. This is why I migrated into Aikijujustu and fiddled with Systema.

I had the good - though terrifying - fortune of learning Aikido from an "old school" Japanese shihan. He repeated often that beginner techniques were for studying martial movement, not for fighting. The upper level, combat-effective Aikido that he showed us looked very different from standard ikkyo, or iriminage, or shihonage - shorter, faster and much more damaging - than any newbie would be safe practicing. And they were so only if relaxed, internal power was used- as my shihan demonstrated. When I was a younger guy learning Aikido, I was also powerlifting. But though I was a strong 235 lbs. (at only 5'8"), he could toss me around easily with a bizarre softness and speed that I still don't fully understand. But my shihan was pretty rare. Mostly, the "shihan" today wouldn't last a minute in the ring with even an amateur MMA guy.

Anywhoo....the martial arts stuff is a past season of my life now. God's got other, more important, things for me to do. But after thirty years of martial arts training, its easy for me to blab and blab about it.

 

[jasonc]

Aikido is based on weapons-taking - the sword, tanto and jo, particularly - and in its longer, sweeping movements allows for the study of principles of martial movement in a way that I appreciate. But as a straight-up fighting art, modern Aikido is woefully lacking - mainly because those who study it now just polish the surface of the techniques. They have lost entirely the internal skills that the Founder of Aikido had mastered that would allow for what he called "takemusu aiki." Also, Aikido is not taught with careful attention to striking, which the Founder of Aikido said was 90% of Aikido. Without these internal and striking skills, Aikido has become a fancy dance, impossible to apply effectively in a modern combat circumstance. This is why I migrated into Aikijujustu and fiddled with Systema.

I had the good - though terrifying - fortune of learning Aikido from an "old school" Japanese shihan. He repeated often that beginner techniques were for studying martial movement, not for fighting. The upper level, combat-effective Aikido that he showed us looked very different from standard ikkyo, or iriminage, or shihonage - shorter, faster and much more damaging - than any newbie would be safe practicing. And they were so only if relaxed, internal power was used- as my shihan demonstrated. When I was a younger guy learning Aikido, I was also powerlifting. But though I was a strong 235 lbs. (at only 5'8"), he could toss me around easily with a bizarre softness and speed that I still don't fully understand. But my shihan was pretty rare. Mostly, the "shihan" today wouldn't last a minute in the ring with even an amateur MMA guy.

Anywhoo....the martial arts stuff is a past season of my life now. God's got other, more important, things for me to do. But after thirty years of martial arts training, its easy for me to blab and blab about it.

The older aikido dojo taught striking and said basically said that . Can't defeat a striker unless you know how they a strike .grappling and ground game changes everything

 

[jasonc]

The older aikido dojo taught striking and said basically said that . Can't defeat a striker unless you know how they a strike .grappling and ground game changes everything

That's why I stopped with fugagakai as they didn't see that you should study and be effective with striking .

 

[Tenchi]

The older aikido dojo taught striking and said basically said that . Can't defeat a striker unless you know how they a strike .grappling and ground game changes everything

My shihan was about "destroying the enemy" in an instant rather than the controlled "combat" of the ring. When your opponent has no rules, no boundaries to their tactics, fighting becomes exceedingly dangerous and distinctly different from mere training and ring, or octagon, fighting. Even the most brutal fighters in the UFC would carefully avoid a variety of their standard fighting maneuvers and strategies if they knew their opponent would try to break, or dislocate, their limbs, gouge out their eyes, or crush their testicles, tear off an ear, or smash their throat, or crush major arteries, and so on. And so, my shihan didn't want us to think competition fighting in training, but battlefield fighting, where economy of action and devastating action were vital to survival. You couldn't dance around with an opponent on the field of battle, trading blows for fifteen minutes - especially if you might be fighting for many hours, or days. So, my shihan encouraged a battlefield-style of attitude and technique which eliminated certain tactics and maneuvers common to tournament and ring fighting - like ground fighting (though we practiced a lot of suwari waza). Really, his teaching was much more akin to koryu bujutsu than mainstream Aikido. Sounds like your taste of Aikido might have been somewhat the same.

 

[Tenchi]

That's why I stopped with fugagakai as they didn't see that you should study and be effective with striking

Do you mean Fugakukai Aikido?

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Testing, Sunday is probably the busiest day of the week for the pastor. You don't say how large the church is. Let's be conservative and say 100 adult parishioners. He gave you 3 minutes. If he did that for every adult that would be 300 minutes, or 5 hours. If the church is larger, then obviously the number of minutes increase. Also a lot of churches have multiple services on Sunday. If your's does, that is another time constraint.

I am sure your pastor maintains office hours. If it is something personal, you should be able to make an appointment. If you have questions or concerns you could address them face to face.

If you just want to chat with him, try attending a mid week service, usually called prayer meetings. Generally, the mid week service is smaller than Sundays. Less people, more time for each one. You could also invite him (and his wife if married) over for dinner. That is another way for some casual face to face time.

Finally, if you have tried all of this, and the pastor is still not responsive to your need, talk to a church elder. Explain to them your situation. The elders are your advocate and supposed to keep both parishioners and the pastor accountable. So there are ways to resolve your situation Testing. I hope you find one.
Keep walking everybody. May God bless,
Taz

 

[WIP]

Let's be sure to focus on the OP's questions.

 

[Anaphora]

Shepherds/pastors/Teachers is about Accountability !. Friendship comes last. Pampering Christian people doesn't give results.
What is being taught ?? Luke chapter 4 . Jesus teaches regularly in synagogues. I don't remember Jesus going around, and shaking hands with everyone and giving pat on back.
It isn't social function. God's word is to be taught and nourish the congregation.
I'm Gods Elect, shepherd. I have autism, and I'm introverted. You won't get much out of me.
Does this make me bad shepherd?
No !. Its my personality and weakness. I obey God to plant seeds and nourish people. But I'm not inclined to introvert with people.
OIKONOMEO in Greek means = Steward.
BLATANO in Greek means = yield fruit, germinate.
APHROSUNE in Greek means = fool, reckless.
AGRAMMATOS in Greek = unlearned.
YADA in Hebrew means = advise, discern.
GDERAH in Hebrew means = enclosure for the flocks, sheep wall.
LUWTS in Hebrew means = Teacher. Hvh
Isaiah chapter 6:8. Also, I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here I am; send me.
Jesus needs Christian people willing to study the bible and plant seeds for God. That's why students study under pastors/Teachers. The students are trained. Then God can use the students to share truth with lost souls.
How can Jesus possibly germinate any seeds that aren't planted??.
Biblically illiterate Christians are of no use to God.
A reckless shepherds, teach tradition of men and false doctrine. They withhold God's truth from people. They fail to nourish the people.
Shepherds are accountable to God !
The first ones in line on judgement day are the shepherds !.
Shepherds pastors/Teachers are accountable to Jesus !.
Accountability comes first. Friendship comes second. Get the picture.
Does that church yield fruit?
Or is that church dead church??.
Are your donations paying off??.
Think it over.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno

I got heckled at a local branch of a megachurch and never went back. I also got heckled in the parking lot of a so called progressive church and never made it in the door . So I sort of get where you’re coming from…maybe I just got lucky in a sense because I was basically driven from the church ️ right off the bat?

Church leaders are important but…how’s it going with other church members? Any small groups you could join? Some larger churches are into the cell group concept which seems to help disciple some people.

Other than that I say prayer and reflection and…

Do you think it’s worldly factors? Some churches ️ talk a good deal about fellowship but they focus on social status and material things when you really deal with them. And that can harm people across the board because you have too little or maybe too much or …

On and on and on. Just thought I’d mention that…

 

[Testing]

I dunno

I got heckled at a local branch of a megachurch and never went back. I also got heckled in the parking lot of a so called progressive church and never made it in the door . So I sort of get where you’re coming from…maybe I just got lucky in a sense because I was basically driven from the church ️ right off the bat?

Church leaders are important but…how’s it going with other church members? Any small groups you could join? Some larger churches are into the cell group concept which seems to help disciple some people.

Other than that I say prayer and reflection and…

Do you think it’s worldly factors? Some churches ️ talk a good deal about fellowship but they focus on social status and material things when you really deal with them. And that can harm people across the board because you have too little or maybe too much or …

On and on and on. Just thought I’d mention that…

Thanks for the reply. The church has about 80 people I suppose. There's no youth at all and yet there's a youth leader, so I don't understand that.

I have joined a home group which consists of about 10 elderly people. The entire church is all middle aged and older people.

I speak to other elderly people without issue. And I see the pastors after service talk and congregate around other people every week. As I said, if I do manage to speak to the pastor, it's a brief hello and that's it. And I've yet to speak to his wife.

It's fine I suppose, something I guess I have to put up with it. But for that reason I don't consider him a shepherd or influence in my life personally. Yes he preaches sermons. But so what? I listen to a lot more sermons online during the week like John MacArthur for example.

 

[Christian Saboteur]

Wow!!,this thread went from church social issues to Bruce Lee in no time.

 

[Testing]

I do remember one thing also. One time I did speak to the pastor I mentioned how I was a subscriber to various YouTube Christian channels. He wasn't familiar with any of the channels I mentioned, eg Allan Parr, but I noticed he was a bit funny about it. He didn't engage with me about that and didn't seem to approve and the conversation quickly ended. After that, there were no further meaningful conversations, just a quick, hello and how are you?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Some ministers don’t actually care for Christians who study a lot…