[_ Old Earth _] the sun orbits the earth?

[jasoncran]

how it is possible the earth neither moves and the moon does and the sun does.? care to explain?

i dont accept the idea of this?

 

[coffeeelover]

Re: for strangelove: the sun orbits the earth?

Does't look like a response is coming.

Might I ask how you don't think earth earth is the literal center of the universe, but you think it is literally 6000 years old and the flood is literally true. Isn' t that nit picking? The bible. How do you tell what parts are are not literal?

 

[Pard]

Re: for strangelove: the sun orbits the earth?

I think the earth is the center of the universe. I cannot prove that it is literally the center, but neither can anyone disprove it. No one actually knows the size of God's creation, it is very easy for the earth to be to center of His physical creation.

Of course it is the center of the universe figuratively speaking. God's heart and love is poured on earth. God came and died for us... on earth. When God comes back and conquers Satan once and for all the earth will be the place we will all call home. The earth is the center of God's universe, no question about it!

 

[jasoncran]

Re: for strangelove: the sun orbits the earth?

Does't look like a response is coming.

Might I ask how you don't think earth earth is the literal center of the universe, but you think it is literally 6000 years old and the flood is literally true. Isn' t that nit picking? The bible. How do you tell what parts are are not literal?

the bible doesnt state that earth is physically the center of universe,if it does it doenst say that to my knowledge.

 

[coffeeelover]

Re: for strangelove: the sun orbits the earth?

I think the earth is the center of the universe. I cannot prove that it is literally the center, but neither can anyone disprove it. No one actually knows the size of God's creation, it is very easy for the earth to be to center of His physical creation.

Of course it is the center of the universe figuratively speaking. God's heart and love is poured on earth. God came and died for us... on earth. When God comes back and conquers Satan once and for all the earth will be the place we will all call home. The earth is the center of God's universe, no question about it!

If the earth orbits the sun then the sun would be the center of the universe. Do you believe the earth orbits the sun or the opposite?

 

[coffeeelover]

Re: for strangelove: the sun orbits the earth?

the bible doesnt state that earth is physically the center of universe,if it does it doenst say that to my knowledge.

If the earth doesn't move other things must be moving around it. Here are some verses that clearly state that the earth doesn't move.

1 Chronicles 16:30
tremble before him, all earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.
Psalms 93:1
The Lord reigns; he is robbed in majesty; the lord is robbed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved.
Psalms 96:10
Say among the nations, "The Lord reigns! Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity."

​

Beyond the Earth being still the bible also clearly states that the Sun does indeed move.

Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.


So If one is to believe that the the bible is literally true then one must believe the earth is indeed the center of the universe.

Ptolemy and Aristotle were not idiots. They were in fact both geniuses. They read and understood the bible quite well, and created their theories to conform to what the bible obviously says to be literally true. That is why the early church so hated Copernicus and Galileo.

So Jason and others. Are you going to continue to hold to biblical literalism? Does the government and military cover up the truth about the Earth being the center of the universe or is the bible really not a literal document?

 

[Nick]

Re: for strangelove: the sun orbits the earth?

I don't believe that the Bible says much (if anything) about whether the Earth is the literal centre of the universe or not. I honestly don't think it matters.
From what I know, the science clearly points to the sun being the centre of our solar system, with all the planets - including Earth - orbiting around the Sun.

 

[Pard]

CL,

It is still possible for the earth to be the center of the universe and move... The galaxy moves. The universe moves. Who said they do not all move in synchronicity? Besides, you missed the main point of that post...

Also, those lines of scripture kind of sort of really seem to be taken out of context.

 

[jasoncran]

i know those verse and you made a classic error.

those mean that the earth shall be not DESTROYED!

theres a verse that say we are like trees planted by the lord and shall not be moved(poetry)

lol poetry, and we believe God STOPPED the earth!
he can do that if we wants to . oh yeah this from the guy who somehow believes that jesus died and didnt somehow will see heaven? how are you gonna get there if you dont think the he rose from the cross?
and most of psalms and job and song of solomon is POETRY.

Poetry, there is been established as poetry by the jews who wrote those books and didnt say that genesis is poetry.

Plato and arostotile lets here brilliant men but uh neither jew nor christian but gentiles and never believed in the HEBREW GOD!
so lets Joshua was written before them, and so was psalms, and also i chronicles
aristotile influenced alexander the great, and did they know about the jews (probably) but they were DEAD when the ot was translated to the greek!

on plato and aristotile
Plato - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
plato dead at approx 347 bc so he didnt know hebrew to anyone knowledge, though philospher did talk but there no way he could have read the greek since he didnt know hebrew.
let see here when the ot was compiled and translated to greek.
history of the Bible - Dr. Rollinson's Courses and Resources
(250 bc)
Aristotle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
aristitotilte deceased in 382 bc
hmm lets see here.

did the men actually know hebrew?

and did aristotle come with geocentrism? yup
and what did the jew then believe?
dont know

poetic book of the bible listed here and i will add that its found else where in chapters

lets see you quoted psalms(all poetic)
negates alot of your argument

Old Testament Books | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[coffeeelover]

CL,

It is still possible for the earth to be the center of the universe and move... The galaxy moves. The universe moves. Who said they do not all move in synchronicity?

Also, those lines of scripture kind of sort of really seem to be taken out of context.

If the earth rotates another body the body it orbits is the center. Also, those scriptures clearly show the earth does not move at all.

 

[coffeeelover]

i know those verse and you made a classic error.

those mean that the earth shall be not DESTROYED!

theres a verse that say we are like trees planted by the lord and shall not be moved(poetry)

lol poetry, and we believe God STOPPED the earth!
he can do that if we wants to . oh yeah this from the guy who somehow believes that jesus died and didnt somehow will see heaven? how are you gonna get there if you dont think the he rose from the cross?
and most of psalms and job and song of solomon is POETRY.

Poetry, there is been established as poetry by the jews who wrote those books and didnt say that genesis is poetry.

Plato and arostotile lets here brilliant men but uh neither jew nor christian but gentiles and never believed in the HEBREW GOD!
so lets Joshua was written before them, and so was psalms, and also i chronicles
aristotile influenced alexander the great, and did they know about the jews (probably) but they were DEAD when the ot was translated to the greek!

on plato and aristotile
Plato - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
plato dead at approx 347 bc so he didnt know hebrew to anyone knowledge, though philospher did talk but there no way he could have read the greek since he didnt know hebrew.
let see here when the ot was compiled and translated to greek.
history of the Bible - Dr. Rollinson's Courses and Resources
(250 bc)
Aristotle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
aristitotilte deceased in 382 bc
hmm lets see here.

did the men actually know hebrew?

and did aristotle come with geocentrism? yup
and what did the jew then believe?
dont know

poetic book of the bible listed here and i will add that its found else where in chapters

lets see you quoted psalms(all poetic)
negates alot of your argument

Old Testament Books | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

If the bible is inerrant then it doesn't matter what language one reads it in. It says the same thing in all languages.

Also, either the bible is literal or it isn't. You seem to be nit picking what is literal and what is poetic in the bible.

 

[jasoncran]

how can these men being GENTILES read the very JEWISH holy book if they didnt know HEBREW? the jews of the time looked down upon GENTILES.

the reason the ot was translated to the greek was because the post exillic jews couldnt read hebrew but could read greek. so its doubtful then when plato and aristotile was alive that they had to be told what the ot says. no jew would let a gentile touch the word most likely. its holy to them.

and archeology has confirmed that the hebrew poetry is like that in psalms and other semite languages do the same thing. and are very similiar in structure.

genesis as pard has pointed is still held literal to this day by some jews. and what the did the apostles in the jesus day think? how would they see it? surely Paul being a pharisee would know how to read and write hebrew and the proper exegesis

in fact it wasnt until after his and the apostles death did men like st.augustine and other say that genesis was a poetry.

since paul was a jew that recieve christ and along with all others its best to take their way as they would know what the proper exegesis was of the ot.

but that isnt really the op here its why do some still hold to the geocentric view.

 

[Vic C.]

Let me say a thing or two:

Phil 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

We are not the center of anything and clearly, from a physical POV, neither is the Earth.

God is the center of all.

We shouldn't be so quick to throw the word "literal" around. There is a difference between literal and literalistic.

Learn the difference and you will be on a better path in understanding the Bible and interpreting it's many passages.

Lastly, this thread seems to be a vehicle to argue simply for the sake of argument.

 

[jasoncran]

thanks and i was trying to find where i could find that. as that is the way i was taught to exegesis. some parts are literal and others are literalistic. i wanted to engage strangelove on why he still believed in geocentrism.

he is the only person that i know that still accepts that.

 

[Pard]

CL,

May I suggest you take a course in basic Bible exegesis? Seriously, it will help lots. I bet your church even has a class, or your pastor would probably be very happy to teach you the ropes.

Basically, parts of the Bible are literal and other parts of poetic. I'm not making this up or anything, it has been this way forever. This is the problem with the English translation, and why i want to learn Hebrew and Greek. Hebrew is such an AMAZING language that English cannot even begin to capture it! The Hebrew language has special poetry that can only be seen when reading it in Hebrew, and so we English readers must be equipped with the knowledge of which books and parts are poetry and which are not.

Genesis is not poetry. Psalms is poetry. Also, the Jews like figures of speech and other crazy things that boggle my mind...

 

[jasoncran]

i wish my grandpa was alive as he taught hebrew in the temple and was literate in it. i would love to ask him as my grandma has the ot in english(middle english of all things)

 

[coffeeelover]

What I see is that some people want to have it both ways. The bible is literal in some places and metaphorical in other places. There are translation errors, but it is with out error. I have never seen any passage in the bible that say take this section as poetry. Or this section is literal.

Jason you point to archeology to show that a certain portion isn't literal, but archeology shows that Genesis isn't literal either. I know of no reputable archeologist who works at an accredited university who says Noah's Ark is a literal event.

 

[coffeeelover]

Let me say a thing or two:

Phil 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

We are not the center of anything and clearly, from a physical POV, neither is the Earth.

God is the center of all.

We shouldn't be so quick to throw the word "literal" around. There is a difference between literal and literalistic.

Learn the difference and you will be on a better path in understanding the Bible and interpreting it's many passages.

Lastly, this thread seems to be a vehicle to argue simply for the sake of argument.

This thread is about the schism between modern Christians who don't take a literal view of the bible. That is the belief in an old earth, and the Arch being a metaphorical story, and those who say that if you don't believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and that the flood really happened 4000 years ago you aren't a Christian at all.

Strangelove simply points to the most dogmatic view of the literalist.

My view is that I am indeed a Christian while at the same time don't hold a literal view of the bible.

Of course there will be debate and argument in the science forum, science is often debated and argued. There strife is there because some would say that if you don't believe certain prerequisite things you aren't a true Christian.

 

[Vic C.]

There is literal and there is literalistic. For instance, when you read a word, verse or passage, do you attempt to get down to the real meaning, which is what it means in it's historical context? (how would the original target audience understand it?)

That would give you the literal meaning.

Being literalistic would mean you abandon the above in favor of reading it for what it says, using your contemporary understanding.

Do we really have planks in our eyes or millstones around our necks? Were there really unicorns in the OT time and did God really create evil? Will Jesus really have seven stars in His hand and a sword coming out of His mouth, as depicted in Revelation?

 

[jasoncran]

the sentence structure as in how peotry is used and what hebrew is.

i have in it my bible as and i will copy it.

we arent asking you do believe us, but understand the hebrew mind and what they wrote and how they thought and transmitted ideas

why does jesus speak in parables? that is also done in the ot in alot of parts. some in judges and in kings. you are thinking in modern american english not as a hebrew. that is the problem.
pard said it best the english language is so limited. i used to speak pahsto(related to hebrew) and they have whole concepts that are said in one word that cant be easily translated. with the hebrews its the same.

here ya go from the aghat epic its a cannanite poetry

" DO THOU ASK FOR LIFE,OH LAD AQHAT;DO THOU ASK FOR LIFE,I'LL GRANT IT THEE, ETERNAL LIFE, AND I'LL ACCORD IT THEE.''
now then take a gander at the similirarity to this in the book of judges 5:30
" To SISERA A PREY OF DIVERS COLOURS, A PREY OF DIVERS COLOURS OF NEEDLEWORK, OF DIVERS COLOURS OF NEEDLE WORK ON BOTH SIDES,MEET FOR THE NECKS OF THEM THAT TAKE THE SPOIL"

do you see the relation here note the way there are written, h.l. ginsberg said that and he is theologist and did alot on ancient hebrew mythology.

Harold Louis Ginsberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and he was with this group who studies ancient jewish texts.

American Academy of Jewish Research

you assume just becuase it cant be proven that the culture meant it to be a metaphor was that the case when they wrote that . is that how the hebrew wrote these books?

he wrote them as literal as he thought that was what God told him to do in genesis and when its was poetry he used poetry ala hebrew style.

again you dont have to believe this to be literal but understand at least the literary device that the hebrew used when he did use it.