[_ Old Earth _] the sun orbits the earth?

[jasoncran]

vic i see your point and i want to at a later time look at genesis and see the hebrew thought pattern and even the creationist site aig see it that way. they state that in order to do proper exegesis we must look at the original audience and will get the proper view point.

and westtexas pointed out to me a while back block logic vs linear logic(we use this) the hebrew in genesis the first six chapters isnt.

 

[Vic C.]

Jason, try this. It has commentary by Rashi.

Genesis - Chapter 1 (Parshah Bereishit) - Genesis - Torah - Bible

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, try this. It has commentary by Rashi.

Genesis - Chapter 1 (Parshah Bereishit) - Genesis - Torah - Bible

bad link. i know that the hebrews take the genesis account in a myriad of ways, some literal others not.

i want to explore how it was originally written and the audience. and see and learn.

even if it means that my view on creationism may be wrong.

 

[Mike]

Jason, try this. It has commentary by Rashi.

Genesis - Chapter 1 (Parshah Bereishit) - Genesis - Torah - Bible

Page not found :gah ;)

CL we haven't crossed paths a lot, so your take may be lost on me. I thought you were trying to offer biblical evidence that the Bible supports the earth not moving, but I see you are using this misuse of the poetry to say that there are flaws in scripture suggesting that the earth doesn't rotate around the sun.

Were you looking for signs in the Bible to notify you when you are beginning a "poetic" book as opposed to a historical or prophetic one? You ever hear that saying, "there's no bad acting rolls, only bad actors"? I'd say there's no errors in the Bible, only errant readers.

I'm not here to say we interpret scripture by consensus, but if you have doctrine that opposes virtually every biblical Christian group, and you're on that "poetic" island in believing we all have it wrong and you have it right, Houston, we have a problem.

 

[Pard]

Jason brings up another good point. We are trained to use linear and parallel logic. We are trained to identify symmetric and circular logic. These forms of logic are NOT what the Jews, or anyone Middle-Eastern country, uses! Chiastic is the logic form of the Middle-East languages. Learn Chiastic logic and the Bible will make so much more sense!

Chiastic structure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Strangelove]

Well here I am finally. I have the key to the science department. I feel honored!

Doesn't look like theres much science being discussed here though??2

Fisrtly, lets state a few facts and get the Bible out of the way so we can get onto science. And these facts stand whether you take the Bible literally or not. And by the way its not one or the other ok? It's up to the discernment of the reader to decide what parts they want to take literal and what not to. i.e. Jesus really did die on the cross but the whore of Babylon is not an actual woman. I dont know anyone who doesnt agree with those two things so theres no literal either or. So please dont hit me with any flat Earth nonsense.

FACTS

1) Nowhere in the Bible is there any indication that the Earth moves. Not spinning and not flying through the Heavens. Nowhere. Now for me.... That would be an astonishing thing for God to leave out. I mean it wouldn't have hurt to put in a line in Genesis like "And the Lord spinneth the Earth, that it should spinneth for eternity". The question should also be asked here....what was the Earth doing for the first 3 days of creation God created the Sun? Was the Earth orbiting around nothing? Thats not mentioned. Did God create the Sun and then flick the Earth into it's orbit? Thats not mentioned.

2) Whenever there are verses which COULD be relevent to whether or not the Earth moves....the Bible indicates that it doesnt. Now plz dont get all literal/not literal on me.....I'm just stating facts.

3) Whenever there are verses concerning whether or not the Sun moves.....the Bible indicates a moving Sun. Joshuas long day is a great example (thanks coffelover) and you could also add to that the dozens of times the Bible mentions sunrise...sunset etc

((Oh But sunrise and sunset are just the words used in the Bible cos at that time heliocentric view was coming to the fore))

Ok....ok.....I'm just stating facts. Dont get stressed. By the way has anyone looked at the Greek or Hebrew texts and seen the words they use to describe the sun and its movement? Cos in ancient days everyone was geocentric??

So I think we could all agree that if we were stuck on a desret island all our lives with only a Bible, we would have no reason to believe that the Earth was moving.

Can we all agree on that before we get our science hats on?

The Bible alone INDICATES Geocentricity and in no way whatsoever INDICATES Heliocentricity.

Or is that gonna spark a massive debate? I hope not cos I really wanna get into the science.

 

[Vic C.]

Ok people, here is the unparsed link: (copy/paste into browser address field)

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8165/showrashi/true

Doc... no comment other than the Bible doesn't mention a lot of things we now know to be fact. It certainly doesn't address electricity. Personally, with your brand of literalism, we'd still be in the dark ages.

One must be careful and prudent when implying Biblical silence on issues not relevant to the Bible Message.

The Bible is God's revelation of Himself to man, providing for us His plan to reconcile us to Him. It isn't a book instructing us in the inner workings of His creation. But, He did give us a brain and the tools needed to use said brain. How each and every one of us choose to use our gifts is another story.

 

[coffeeelover]

Well here I am finally. I have the key to the science department. I feel honored!

Doesn't look like theres much science being discussed here though??2

Fisrtly, lets state a few facts and get the Bible out of the way so we can get onto science. And these facts stand whether you take the Bible literally or not. And by the way its not one or the other ok? It's up to the discernment of the reader to decide what parts they want to take literal and what not to. i.e. Jesus really did die on the cross but the whore of Babylon is not an actual woman. I dont know anyone who doesnt agree with those two things so theres no literal either or. So please dont hit me with any flat Earth nonsense.

FACTS

1) Nowhere in the Bible is there any indication that the Earth moves. Not spinning and not flying through the Heavens. Nowhere. Now for me.... That would be an astonishing thing for God to leave out. I mean it wouldn't have hurt to put in a line in Genesis like "And the Lord spinneth the Earth, that it should spinneth for eternity". The question should also be asked here....what was the Earth doing for the first 3 days of creation God created the Sun? Was the Earth orbiting around nothing? Thats not mentioned. Did God create the Sun and then flick the Earth into pit's orbit? Thats not mentioned.

2) Whenever there are verses which COULD be relevent to whether or not the Earth moves....the Bible indicates that it doesnt. Now plz dont get all literal/not literal on me.....I'm just stating facts.

3) Whenever there are verses concerning whether or not the Sun moves.....the Bible indicates a moving Sun. Joshuas long day is a great example (thanks coffelover) and you could also add to that the dozens of times the Bible mentions sunrise...sunset etc

((Oh But sunrise and sunset are just the words used in the Bible cos at that time heliocentric view was coming to the fore))

Ok....ok.....I'm just stating facts. Dont get stressed. By the way has anyone looked at the Greek or Hebrew texts and seen the words they use to describe the sun and its movement? Cos in ancient days everyone was geocentric??

So I think we could all agree that if we were stuck on a desret island all our lives with only a Bible, we would have no reason to believe that the Earth was moving.

Can we all agree on that before we get our science hats on?

The Bible alone INDICATES Geocentricity and in no way whatsoever INDICATES Heliocentricity.

Or is that gonna spark a massive debate? I hope not cos I really wanna get into the science.

No argument from me.

 

[coffeeelover]

Page not found :gah ;)

CL we haven't crossed paths a lot, so your take may be lost on me. I thought you were trying to offer biblical evidence that the Bible supports the earth not moving, but I see you are using this misuse of the poetry to say that there are flaws in scripture suggesting that the earth doesn't rotate around the sun.

Were you looking for signs in the Bible to notify you when you are beginning a "poetic" book as opposed to a historical or prophetic one? You ever hear that saying, "there's no bad acting rolls, only bad actors"? I'd say there's no errors in the Bible, only errant readers.

I'm not here to say we interpret scripture by consensus, but if you have doctrine that opposes virtually every biblical Christian group, and you're on that "poetic" island in believing we all have it wrong and you have it right, Houston, we have a problem.

There are many if not most Chrisrians who don't think the world is 6000 years old and that the flood is a myth. Genesis is not literal. I am simply pointing out that believing Genesis is literal is the same as believing the sun revolves around the earth.

 

[Vic C.]

There are many if not most Chrisrians who don't think the world is 6000 years old and that the flood is a myth. Genesis is not literal. I am simply pointing out that believing Genesis is literal is the same as believing the sun revolves around the earth.

It's not the same. We can't go back in time to prove or disprove the Creation account, but we can, without error, prove the Sun does not revolve around the Earth.

I fail to understand why this is so hard for some people. :

 

[coffeeelover]

It's not the same. We can't go back in time to prove or disprove the Creation account, but we can, without error, prove the Sun does not revolve around the Earth.

I fail to understand why this is so hard for some people. :

Science has proven that the earth is older than 6000 years, and that the flood couldn't have happened.

 

[Vic C.]

Science has proven that the earth is older than 6000 years, and that the flood couldn't have happened.

Again, not true. They can postulate through theory and so-called empirical evidence, but often they are on constantly shifting sand. It's irrelevant to the Bible's core message anyway.

There is more debate over whether or not the flood was local, as opposed to whether or not is was worldwide.

Mike is correct; you seem to be picking out alleged controversies in the Bible, instead of concentrating on what is really important and central to God's written word.

But as we have seen time and time again on these forums, you are not alone.

 

[Strangelove]

Is anyone else getting loads of erors while browsing around this site??

Vic:::
we can, without error, prove the Sun does not revolve around the Earth.

Bring forth your proofs please Vic. One at a time please sir.

And can I just remind everyone that this is not just a thread created just for the sake of arguing with eachother. The subject matter here is of great spiritual importance.

The heliocentric theory is an absoulute LYNCHPIN in the whole Theory of Evolution game. Proving the Earth doesnt move completely destroys evolution and I aim to do it right here.

First>>>Observation.

Ok guys. watch this video and describe to me exactly what you see.

[video=youtube;H-REzr7HB9E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-REzr7HB9E&feature=player_embedded#![/video]

 

[coffeeelover]

Again, not true. They can postulate through theory and so-called empirical evidence, but often they are on constantly shifting sand. It's irrelevant to the Bible's core message anyway.

There is more debate over whether or not the flood was local, as opposed to whether or not is was worldwide.

Mike is correct; you seem to be picking out alleged controversies in the Bible, instead of concentrating on what is really important and central to God's written word.

But as we have seen time and time again on these forums, you are not alone.

We also can only postulate that the earth rotat es around the sun though empirical evidence. We are on the earth so we can not observe. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how science came to the conclusion that earth rotates around the Sun.


Also, these districtions are important as they relare to how we understand the rest of the bible.

 

[Pard]

I'm not sure what districtions are, CL... But I agree otherwise with you. I cannot see the Word for the truth it holds, than you obviously are looking at the rest of the Bible differently also.

SL... What the heck was that video of? I thought it was a drug trip for a while.

 

[coffeeelover]

I'm not sure what districtions are, CL... But I agree otherwise with you. I cannot see the Word for the truth it holds, than you obviously are looking at the rest of the Bible differently also.

SL... What the heck was that video of? I thought it was a drug trip for a while.

LOL distritions. I meant distinctions. I am using my new Evo at work and the between an overly sensitive touch screen, and odd predictive word choice it some times look like I'm typing while stupid or drunk. Sorry.

The video a 24 a hour lapse time video of the Earth. Everything appears to be orbiting the earth rather than the Earth orbiting anything else.

 

[Strangelove]

SL... What the heck was that video of? I thought it was a drug trip for a while.

Huh?

 

[Strangelove]

The video a 24 a hour lapse time video of the Earth. Everything appears to be orbiting the earth rather than the Earth orbiting anything else.

Anyone else think the Earth looks awfully stationary there?

 

[Free]

So I think we could all agree that if we were stuck on a desret island all our lives with only a Bible, we would have no reason to believe that the Earth was moving.

In the same way then, we would have no reason to believe in cars, airplanes, the Internet, electricity, etc., etc., etc. The Bible's silence on the matter is completely irrelevant as to it's truth, namely, that the sun is the center of our solar system and the Earth revolves around it.

 

[Free]

Anyone else think the Earth looks awfully stationary there?

That video proves absolutely nothing. It's all about perspective. If that satellite was in a geostationary, or geosynchronous, orbit, then the reference point on earth is always the same--that is, you always see the exact same view of earth. The earth could very well be rotating and orbiting the sun (and science proves this to be the case) but the perspective from the satellite somewhat hides this.