The theology of "soul sleep" any truth?

[Free]

Oh, wow. In all honesty it seems as though you really don't know much about biblical interpretation or the role of hermeneutics and why they are necessary. You may as well argue that one doesn't need to know Greek or Hebrew to get the full meaning of a passage, or that the authors of the books of the Bible didn't use their minds when writing what they did.

Didn't use their minds?

That is a total misrepresentation of what Brother Mike said.

You obviously haven't read much of what he has written, to say something like that.


JLB

You do understand what metaphors are, don't you? Re-read what I wrote and you will see that I have not at all misrepresented anyone.

 

[JLB]

Oh, wow. In all honesty it seems as though you really don't know much about biblical interpretation or the role of hermeneutics and why they are necessary. You may as well argue that one doesn't need to know Greek or Hebrew to get the full meaning of a passage, or that the authors of the books of the Bible didn't use their minds when writing what they did.

Didn't use their minds?

That is a total misrepresentation of what Brother Mike said.

You obviously haven't read much of what he has written, to say something like that.


JLB

You do understand what metaphors are, don't you? Re-read what I wrote and you will see that I have not at all misrepresented anyone.

I was using hermeneutics to discipher what you said.


Get the point!

You, the person who wrote what was said, needed to explain to me what you meant.


Thanks JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

So, of course, the Bible isn't going to lay out hermeneutics, because for the people who lived at the time the books of the Bible were written, it went without saying.

hermeneuō first used by some Aristotle person and was about 300 some years before Jesus. One would think if God liked the Style, the Word would have appeared somewhere. One would think.

In fact, many disagreements on these forums are due to people not using proper hermeneutics.

Once again, The bible says over and over the Holy Spirit Teaches. Disagreements come from those not filled with the Holy Spirit. Check out the Spirit Filled tongue talking believers V.S then ones who are not. There is a difference here.

So it's not the use of some Hermenutics man made up, (and God could have mentioned in the NT since it was around at that time) It's the lack of being filled with the Holy Spirit and the ability to hear God.

Get those issues fixed and The Word looks a whole lot different.

Also Free, the scriptures already tell us how to study, why bring in man made devices?

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

I was responding to your quote in post 189, hoping that we might find some common ground.

Thanks, JLB

Yes, I saw that. You didn't lose me at all and I am not searching for common ground because we are standing right on it. Just look down? That's the ground we stand on and it is common. The problem that arose, again was if I am correct, something that came from me not putting quote marks around words that Free said when I quoted him in post 189. But since I was talking to him, I knew he would understand and could readily recognize his own words. What may be seen as "uncommon ground" by you, or stated later, in explanation by me as "a subtle change in voice", is really nothing to bother yourself about.

Seriously. You did say "thank you" and my right reply (also polite and also true) is "you're very welcome."

 

[n2thelight]

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"


Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord,holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."


Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."


Seems to be very much alive .........


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."


Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul.


Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ in heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

 

[Brother Mike]

God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

This is not bad............. I am actually impressed.

The soul would be what connects the Brain organ to the outside World. The more we study the brain the more we understand there is something else there for unlimited memory and the functions our brain performs much higher than any animal.

Our spirit is our exact substance of what we are made of and who the Holy Spirit connects to. Spirits don't die, ever............. they don't need sleep, and go somewhere upon death.

Very impressed N2thelight..... Far better put together than your Post trib doctrine which could use JLB's help.

Or come to the light side and join my pre-trib camp.

Mike.

 

[Free]

So, of course, the Bible isn't going to lay out hermeneutics, because for the people who lived at the time the books of the Bible were written, it went without saying.

hermeneuō first used by some Aristotle person and was about 300 some years before Jesus. One would think if God liked the Style, the Word would have appeared somewhere. One would think.

I don't think you at all understood what I was saying as your comment doesn't address what I said.

In fact, many disagreements on these forums are due to people not using proper hermeneutics.

Once again, The bible says over and over the Holy Spirit Teaches. Disagreements come from those not filled with the Holy Spirit. Check out the Spirit Filled tongue talking believers V.S then ones who are not. There is a difference here.

Ah, the old "I-speak-in-tongues-and-am-therefore-sipiritually-superior" argument. I've seen and heard that far too many times and it is utterly false. All believers are filled with the Spirit regardless of whether or not they speak in tongues.

"The Bible says over and over the Holy Spirit Teaches"? Is that all it says about who it is that teaches? You are once again not in a biblical position due to ignoring what else the Bible says about who is to do teaching. Unless I am mistaken, it says far more about people teaching then the Holy Spirit.

So it's not the use of some Hermenutics man made up, (and God could have mentioned in the NT since it was around at that time) It's the lack of being filled with the Holy Spirit and the ability to hear God.

The "God-could-have-mentioned-it-but-didn't-so-it-is-likely-false" argument is one of the bigger fallacies often committed by Christians in debate. It is largely based on not understanding the purpose of Scripture. God could have mentioned a lot of things but didn't and that they are not mentioned do not speak to the truthfulness of them.

It may be the lack of the ability to hear God but that is an issue for all believers, since all are Spirit-filled. But it could also be a lack of study, a lack of sound reasoning, a lack of proper hermeneutics, a lack of humility, etc.

You will notice that you are the only one arguing an either/or position regarding the teaching of the Holy Spirit and using devices such as hermeneutics. You are arguing to a false dichotomy.

Also Free, the scriptures already tell us how to study, why bring in man made devices?

Mike.

I gave you some reasons but you didn't address them.

 

[Brother Mike]

Ah, the old "I-speak-in-tongues-and-am-therefore-sipiritually-superior" argument. I've seen and heard that far too many times and it is utterly false. All believers are filled with the Spirit regardless of whether or not they speak in tongues.

How much time you spend in tongues Free? You don't see a difference between repentance from dead works and Baptized in Water as opposed to being baptized with power?

Don't believe that for a second. Jesus said how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those that ask................ The condition is God must be Your father, then you ask.

Just ask God about it, don't miss out on something. He will hear and respond......

Mike.

 

[reba]

totopic

 

[JohnD]

BACK ON TOPIC



Luke 16:19-31 (NKJV)
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 “But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 “desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,
28 ‘for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”


This is one of the most amazing passages in the Bible.



Here Jesus gives us a peek into the other side of death, and yes I take the passage literally.



Spiritualizing the meaning from the passages of the Bible is (ironically) a tool of humanists.


No soul sleep here. In fact, no souls. These are the disembodied spirits. Alive, alert, awake... and notice both the "physical-like" attributes and the extra-physical attributes.


The physical include sight, hearing, thinking, speech, thirst, comfort, agony, the affect water has on the tongue...


The extra-physical include everlasting life (at least long enough to meet Abraham who died 2000 years before Lazarus) the ability to converse with another spirit across the great gulf (abyss) as if in the same room.


No soul to sleep.


Spirits are mentioned in the account.



The bodies are in the graves where they were buried.



And the account in Abraham's Bosom and hades is long before Jesus' return at the end of the age. Note that Abraham did not say it is too late for someone to come back from the dead...

 

[JohnD]

Souls are referred to interchangeably with bodies and spirits... because they are the buffer between the two natures the two realities that converge in human beings.

This is probably why so many Trekkers identify with Spock the child of two worlds. Human beings are alone in the universe / eternity flesh and spirit with a soul as a buffer.

​

 

[Free]

Ah, the old "I-speak-in-tongues-and-am-therefore-sipiritually-superior" argument. I've seen and heard that far too many times and it is utterly false. All believers are filled with the Spirit regardless of whether or not they speak in tongues.

How much time you spend in tongues Free? You don't see a difference between repentance from dead works and Baptized in Water as opposed to being baptized with power?

Don't believe that for a second. Jesus said how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those that ask................ The condition is God must be Your father, then you ask.

Just ask God about it, don't miss out on something. He will hear and respond......

Mike.

Apart from being exceedingly presumptuous, you didn't even respond to what was actually written. Again.

To see how this all relates to the topic then, we must use hermeneutics in coming to an understanding of what the soul is, before we can even consider if it can sleep. Since every verse on a topic must be taken into consideration, we note then that the very first use of "soul" is in Genesis and it is used only when body and spirit are brought together, to form a "living being," a "soul." Any biblical understanding of what the soul is must take that into consideration.

 

[Brother Mike]

To see how this all relates to the topic then, we must use hermeneutics in coming to an understanding of what the soul is, before we can even consider if it can sleep. Since every verse on a topic must be taken into consideration, we note then that the very first use of "soul" is in Genesis and it is used only when body and spirit are brought together, to form a "living being," a "soul." Any biblical understanding of what the soul is must take that into consideration.

Free, just go after everything you see in the Word. I was not being presumptuous but just stating fact. Ask God about being filled with the Holy Spirit and tongues. Get everything that belongs to you.

Mike.

 

[Free]

To see how this all relates to the topic then, we must use hermeneutics in coming to an understanding of what the soul is, before we can even consider if it can sleep. Since every verse on a topic must be taken into consideration, we note then that the very first use of "soul" is in Genesis and it is used only when body and spirit are brought together, to form a "living being," a "soul." Any biblical understanding of what the soul is must take that into consideration.

Free, just go after everything you see in the Word. I was not being presumptuous but just stating fact. Ask God about being filled with the Holy Spirit and tongues. Get everything that belongs to you.

Mike.

No, you were and are being very presumptuous. And you still aren't addressing my points. Very telling.

 

[texascowgirl.com]

If the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a true story, then how do you explain the following problems?

• Lazarus didn't go to God or to Jesus, but to the Abraham
• The rich man requested permission to go back from Abraham, not from God
• The rich man was able to see Lazarus and speak to Abraham, as if they were the only ones there. Where were all the millions of others who had died before then?
• If we are all judged and sent to Heaven or Hell as soon as we die, why the need for a final Judgment in the future?

As for "soul sleep", there are a number of verses that support the idea.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. (Is. 38:18 KJV)

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Ps. 6:5 KJV)

Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed (I Cor. 15:51 KJV)

​

There are a many other verses that say that we sleep or that the dead cannot praise or thank God. The only two I can remember that people say "prove" that we don't sleep are the story of Lazarus and the rich man and the fact that Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise". Well, that's how most versions translate it. Some say it should be "Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise". (Look closely and see if you can tell the difference.)

The TOG

​

Very very good job.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Free, just go after everything you see in the Word. I was not being presumptuous but just stating fact. Ask God about being filled with the Holy Spirit and tongues. Get everything that belongs to you. Mike.

Though it may not be your intent, the above quote comes off as being very dismissive and even pompous. It declares to many that read it that we CANNOT get or comprehend anything written in the scriptures without having your 'secret decoder ring'. No matter what someone presents or how much scripture they provide to back up or reveal their point, you seem to be saying "your scriptural points mean nothing if you don't have the spiritual gifts".

Can the scriptures not stand on their own on most matters?

 

[Sparkey]

As a Moderator assigned to the sometimes thorny area of Apologetics and Theology, one must (at times) put on thick gloves and jump straight into the potential briar patch not regarding the little pricks that may be felt there. What presumption might we speak of when a brother comes and seemingly disregards those methods proven true by many? What inspiration might be seen behind that which is said, and of which others have alleged, "presumption".

Well, it behooves us to define a couple words and use those neutral definitions to guide us toward understanding evil for we are each indeed evil. Only God is good. So saith one, so saith all.

Presumption includes.... one second, putting on my gloves because I am about to presume to teach on this... the somewhat self-centered opinion and regard for one's own method over the method suggested and/or followed by others.

What lays behind this presumption? Is the intent to root out what might be seen as a rock in the garden of others?

But what is a rock if it is not compressed and hardened, melted and cooled, dirt?

SO if there is presumption, it is mine. Yes, I am formed by dirt. Yes, I have been heated in the trials of life and yes, I marvel at what God has done.

But where I am rock and stone and hard? There too must I rely on God to touch the fleshly tablets of my heart so that I too may be filled with compassion, like He is, filled with understanding, like our Father is, filled with a hatred of all things evil, not because I may be harmed, but because of the fear that the young and tender shoots and sprouts that are located in that garden, where my rather large bolder boulder was, may no longer prevent growth but instead be made small so that my hope that all such things may be cast from me is found.

Say to the mountain, even with a mustard seed of faith, "Be ye gone hence from me and cast into the sea," and that indeed shall happen.

 

[Sparkey]

Oh? What is this? A prayer that is answered even before it is asked?

"Okay...", he states, thinking.... Another blessing is needed then. One that stretches and staggers the very imagination of me... one inspired:

That you (each of you, each of us) are caused "to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God."

Inspired? Yes. Over-reaching? Perhaps and yes, certainly if we look at our condition, but give your regard to the next part:

"Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen."

This is the very blessing given to me, by the wife of a brother that we love, inspired by God, prayed and agreed as touching concerning each one. So saith Sparrow, one who is given to see such things on occasion for reason unknown but appreciated with a heart filled with tears of hope and thanks.

 

[Brother Mike]

Though it may not be your intent, the above quote comes off as being very dismissive and even pompous. It declares to many that read it that we CANNOT get or comprehend anything written in the scriptures without having your 'secret decoder ring'. No matter what someone presents or how much scripture they provide to back up or reveal their point, you seem to be saying "your scriptural points mean nothing if you don't have the spiritual gifts".

Can the scriptures not stand on their own on most matters?

I am not trying to be pompous, or hurtful. I have only been in the Word of God for about 15 years so I am pretty young still as a Christian. Being Spirit filled, speaking in tongues, being able to sense others being spirit filled and Knowing by which they speak a lot of times, Head knowledge or something God has revealed. (Much Like Jesus saying To Peter only God could have revealed that to you) I pick up things, God shows me things, and I sense things.

There is a big difference between Spirit Filled believe........................ And some one renewed by the Holy Spirit, sealed until the day of Redemption.

It is night and day difference.

That does not mean Non-Spirit Filled believers are dumb as Rocks when it comes to understanding the Word, as I have gotten lots of help from a lot of them. It just means that The Word is looked at in a very natural way without faith and Power added.

If you were filled with the Holy Spirit, you would get it. I hear God a lot, as well as others. Even JLB hears God and has told me things about me that only God would have known, there is a difference here, a big difference.

So, Unless we are taught that with all things become new that there is a whole new life and things to receive from God we don't know. A lot of folks are taught that just getting saved is the only goal and that is it.

It is just the start..............

So, who is Mike to tell us anything............................. You see, that is where foolish things are used, and I have learned to pay attention to them. How many things I have let slip by me that God has sent only to find I could have had victory much sooner.

God does not appeal to our intellect. If you understood this, you would seek what I told you to seek.

Mike.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

God does not appeal to our intellect. If you understood this, you would seek what I told you to seek.

I understand it, but I don't really believe it to be a true statement. Can you give me the reasons why you know this to be true especially in light of scripture that shows readers that God and Jesus appealed to people's intellect, the fact that scripture says to seek out wisdom, and in light of things like Jesus saying "CONSIDER (give thought to) the lilies of the field........"?