Why do some people feel they have the right to undo Salvation?

[Lady Terra]

John 10:28

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.30I and my Father are one.

Not long ago, I was at a college. A young man tried to had me a pamphlet concerning Christ's Salvation for mankind. I told him I am a believer already and it would be better to give the pamphlet to an non-believer. He then proceeded to discount and question my salvation and told me that if I do not sit in his church and serve God that I am not Saved. This happens over and over. All the different churches and religions discards one's salvation due to they do not serve in their church.

There is so much division in the body of Christ. Are people who are trying to Undo your Salvation really Anti-Christ.

 

[gr8grace3]

John 10:28

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.30I and my Father are one.

Not long ago, I was at a college. A young man tried to had me a pamphlet concerning Christ's Salvation for mankind. I told him I am a believer already and it would be better to give the pamphlet to an non-believer. He then proceeded to discount and question my salvation and told me that if I do not sit in his church and serve God that I am not Saved. This happens over and over. All the different churches and religions discards one's salvation due to they do not serve in their church.

There is so much division in the body of Christ. Are people who are trying to Undo your Salvation really Anti-Christ.

Yes, they are anti-Christ. In the sense that they are preaching against the truth of Christ. Their thinking and ways are anti-Christ. Not that they ARE satan or demons. They think like satan and are influenced by satans ways.

Keep studying, because the ones that are subtle are the dangerous ones. And only the mind of Christ can discern who they are.

This is their(anti-Christ) John 10:28-30
28 And I(with your help and fruit) give(with strings attached) unto them eternal life(its not really eternal,you can lose it); and they might not perish, neither shall any man(except for yourself) pluck(you can though) them out of my hand.29My Father, which gave(with stings attached) them me, is greater than all(except for yourself); and no man(except for yourself) is able to pluck(you can though) them out of my Father's hand.30I and my Father are one.

 

[Gary]

(Post removed: A&T Guidelines: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah.)

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[Jethro Bodine]

John 10:28

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.30I and my Father are one.

Not long ago, I was at a college. A young man tried to had me a pamphlet concerning Christ's Salvation for mankind. I told him I am a believer already and it would be better to give the pamphlet to an non-believer. He then proceeded to discount and question my salvation and told me that if I do not sit in his church and serve God that I am not Saved. This happens over and over. All the different churches and religions discards one's salvation due to they do not serve in their church.

There is so much division in the body of Christ. Are people who are trying to Undo your Salvation really Anti-Christ.

Sounds to me like he is saying you have never been born again to begin with.

When you start attending and serving his church and then he starts saying you're unsaved, that is when he is trying to undo your salvation. (By the way, only you can reject God's grace. Others can not do that for you. There is no such argument of others undoing your salvation.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is their(anti-Christ) John 10:28-30
28 And I(with your help and fruit) give(with strings attached) unto them eternal life(its not really eternal,you can lose it)....

The string attached to eternal life is faith. Anyone who tries to tell you there are no strings attached to salvation and eternal life is preaching a false gospel. You must have faith to have the promise of salvation and eternal life.
Now the string that is definitely not attached to the promise of eternal life is the performance of righteous work to earn it. But faith? Yes, that is the string attached to eternal life. No faith/ no eternal life.

Even though we have the right as Christians to judge fruit, if someone wants to question your faith (and thus, your lack of fruit), that is ultimately between you and God. But input from other believers is often valuable when assessing our own faith and whether or not it is of the quality that is able to justify. But anyone who tells you that justifying faith is recognized by if you go to their church or not is, to say the least, a little misguided, if not arrogant.

 

[th1b.taylor]

John 10:28

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.30I and my Father are one.

Not long ago, I was at a college. A young man tried to had me a pamphlet concerning Christ's Salvation for mankind. I told him I am a believer already and it would be better to give the pamphlet to an non-believer. He then proceeded to discount and question my salvation and told me that if I do not sit in his church and serve God that I am not Saved. This happens over and over. All the different churches and religions discards one's salvation due to they do not serve in their church.

There is so much division in the body of Christ. Are people who are trying to Undo your Salvation really Anti-Christ.

A very needed topic of discussion Lady Terra,
I am known for ticking people off on this subject because I speak the truth on this matter. Satan is deeply rooted inside the Church of the Christ. Any division of the Church is not of God and is only attributable to Satan and his demons. i.e. I am Christian attending a Southern Baptist Church, baptised in a Missionary Baptist Church and have lead Worship Services in Pentecostal and other Churches when needed. A friend of mine is a baptised Christian of the Baptist Faith teaching in a Catholic Church, with the Priest's knowledge and blessing.

I teach on the Web and in Church that any religion from Christianity to Islamism will gain anyone entry into Hell but that anyone with a personal walk with Jesus will go straight to Heaven, no matter their religion. People inside and outside the Church, far to often,, professing Salvation by faith believe they "must" work to maintain their Salvation and this leads, from many rections, to discourse and division, Satan inspired and driven. I know my Baptist Religion has naught to do with my Salvation, that's the place my Family comes together but so many want legalization and that is sad.

 

[FreeGrace]

When you start attending and serving his church and then he starts saying you're unsaved, that is when he is trying to undo your salvation. (By the way, only you can reject God's grace. Others can not do that for you.

Where are the verses that say that one can reject the gift of salvation, once given? There are none.

There is no such argument of others undoing your salvation.)

As well, there is no such argument of oneself undoing their own salvation. It cannot undone. Grace can be rejected, but that does not equate to loss of salvation.

A rebellious child REMAINS a child nevertheless. No verse or passage says or even suggests that a child of God can cease to be a child of God, which is tantamount to the view that one can lose their salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

The string attached to eternal life is faith.

Cute. Nice try. There are no strings attached. If so, there would be CLEAR Scripture saying as much. Yet, there are none. When the gift is given by grace through faith, it is IRREVOCABLE, because God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE, as Rom 11:29 perfectly clearly states.

God neither takes back His gifts, nor can one given them back, because, as has previously been noted, once a child, always a child. There are no verses that state the contrary. And there is no evidence from Scripture or human life where a child can cease to be a child.

Anyone who tries to tell you there are no strings attached to salvation and eternal life is preaching a false gospel.

I think it is sad that one would think that believing in Christ is a "string attached". The point is that believing in Christ is used in the aorist tense, which refutes the idea that one must maintain their faith in order to maintain their salvation.

You must have faith to have the promise of salvation and eternal life.

Acts 16:31 "believe" is aorist tense. Point in time. Not continuous time.

Now the string that is definitely not attached to the promise of eternal life is the performance of righteous work to earn it. But faith? Yes, that is the string attached to eternal life. No faith/ no eternal life.

There is no string, as noted by the aorist tense. If (which is NOT true) every verse that linked believing to eternal life was only in the present tense, then you'd possibly have a point. But there are many verses that use the aorist tense.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I stand with FreeGrace on this one. The scriptures given and the are listed in the Nave's, and my favorite metaphor is a ship with 6 foot gunwales. You can stumble and fall on board but you cannot fall overboard. (John 10:29) Another great metaphor was my forced use of a Chicken Strap in Vietnam. When I was assigned a new gunner. If the new man was also new in country, a Cherry, I made him strap himself into the Parachute Harness that had a twenty foot Cargo Strap sewn onto it and the hook attached to one of the Cargo Tie Downs.

We got into a gun fight one day on the second or third day with my FNG (Freaky New Guy, it's my story and I'm sticking to it) fell out the door because a Fifty Calibre Tracer just missed him and buried itself in the Fire Wall on my side of the ship and fell out before we landed. We, instantly, disengaged and as we approached our airfield at Dau Tieng, Vietnam, the Tower Controller for the Fixed Wing Runway called 806 and announced we were Slinging an undeclared load. The pilot said he was sorry for not declaring, that he had forgotten to declare since the load was our FNG that had gotten shot at and fell out the door. The tower operator keyed the mike to several men laughing.

My Gunner had fallen out the door but he had not left the helicopter because his crew chief, Pilot and Peter Pilot, all three, had demanded he wear the Chicken Strap. In the end he was embarrassed but he was not lost. BTW, after three or four more Gun Fights I told him he was seasoned and could remove the strap any time he wanted. Two or three more good Gun Battles and a B40 launched at us on his side and we stowede Chicken Strap in Supply.

God is just like that, dumb, and embarrassing Chicken Strap. My New Gunner did not land anywhere that he did not receive Cat Calls and Clucking Chicken Calls until he took it off but that strap did not let him fall to his death because he was not a seasoned, blooded, fighter. In the same way, God will not let any of us fall away from Him... if we were sincere in our conversion!

 

[reba]

Stick with the program guys
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[OzSpen]

Sounds to me like he is saying you have never been born again to begin with.

When you start attending and serving his church and then he starts saying you're unsaved, that is when he is trying to undo your salvation. (By the way, only you can reject God's grace. Others can not do that for you. There is no such argument of others undoing your salvation.)

Jethro,

But that's the rub for some people. Your very language, 'By the way, only you can reject God's grace. Others can not do that for you', is what is used by some people to question our salvation, especially by those who believe in irresistible grace. For them you cannot reject God's grace. Therefore, the consequence is that they regard you as unsaved, so they continue to press that you must come to their kind of Reformed church. Unless I do, I'm not saved. How do I know this is their view? It has happened to me.

I reject that perspective because of Scriptures such as Titus 2:11 (ESV): 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

Oz

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For them you cannot reject God's grace. Therefore, the consequence is that they regard you as unsaved, so they continue to press that you must come to their kind of Reformed church. Unless I do, I'm not saved. How do I know this is their view? It has happened to me.

It happens to me here in this forum pretty regularly. I'm told I'm not really saved because I believe that a sanctified believer can reject the forgiveness of sin they have in Christ and be condemned as an unbeliever (because he has rejected the forgiveness of sin that saves one from that fate).

"29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29 NASB)

Somewhere along the line continuing to have the faith that justifies in order to be saved became one of the works of the law that Paul said constitutes the works gospel that can not justify, but every time I ask for the scripture that says the requirement to have a continuing faith is among the works Paul says can not justify no one provides it.

 

[OzSpen]

It happens to me here in this forum pretty regularly. I'm told I'm not really saved because I believe that a sanctified believer can reject the forgiveness of sin they have in Christ and be condemned as an unbeliever (because he has rejected the forgiveness of sin that saves one from that fate).

"29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29 NASB)

Somewhere along the line continuing to have the faith that justifies in order to be saved became one of the works of the law that Paul said constitutes the works gospel that can not justify, but every time I ask for the scripture that says the requirement to have a continuing faith is among the works Paul says can not justify no one provides it.

Jethro,

Such a basic verse as John 3:16 (ESV) confirms the nature of what needs to happen to have continuing salvation: 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life'.

These two verbals, 'believes' and 'have' are present tense in the Greek language, which means that they indicate continuous or continuing action. so, the meaning is, 'Whoever continues to believe in him should not perish but continue to have eternal life. So, eternal life is guaranteed for those who continue to believe in Jesus. Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV) is clear that it is possible to commit apostasy from the faith and some have 'shipwrecked' their faith (1 Tim 1:19 ESV).

Perhaps that will put the soteriological cat amongst the pigeons!

Oz

 

[FreeGrace]

Jethro,

Such a basic verse as John 3:16 (ESV) confirms the nature of what needs to happen to have continuing salvation: 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life'.

These two verbals, 'believes' and 'have' are present tense in the Greek language, which means that they indicate continuous or continuing action. so, the meaning is, 'Whoever continues to believe in him should not perish but continue to have eternal life. So, eternal life is guaranteed for those who continue to believe in Jesus. Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV) is clear that it is possible to commit apostasy from the faith and some have 'shipwrecked' their faith (1 Tim 1:19 ESV).

Perhaps that will put the soteriological cat amongst the pigeons!
Oz

If every use of "believe" were in the present tense, that would be a point in favor on the necessity of on-going faith in order to stay saved. But the Bible frequently uses the aorist tense as well, which ignores any continuation of the action. It's just a point in time action in the aorist tense. Such as Acts 16:31 and Paul's answer to the jailer.

Interestingly, Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 in reference to the first soil; "lest they believe (aorist) and be saved". Yet, in the next verse, Jesus used the present tense for "believe" and followed that with "for a while". So even the use of "believe" in the present tense doesn't demand that such action will continue on into the future.

 

[JLB]

Where are the verses that say that one can reject the gift of salvation, once given? There are none.


As well, there is no such argument of oneself undoing their own salvation. It cannot undone. Grace can be rejected, but that does not equate to loss of salvation.

A rebellious child REMAINS a child nevertheless. No verse or passage says or even suggests that a child of God can cease to be a child of God, which is tantamount to the view that one can lose their salvation.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

And again -

Peter warns us that even angels, who are sons of God, can be cast down to hell, because of disobedience.


4For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4

JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro,

Such a basic verse as John 3:16 (ESV) confirms the nature of what needs to happen to have continuing salvation: 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life'.

These two verbals, 'believes' and 'have' are present tense in the Greek language, which means that they indicate continuous or continuing action. so, the meaning is, 'Whoever continues to believe in him should not perish but continue to have eternal life. So, eternal life is guaranteed for those who continue to believe in Jesus. Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV) is clear that it is possible to commit apostasy from the faith and some have 'shipwrecked' their faith (1 Tim 1:19 ESV).

Perhaps that will put the soteriological cat amongst the pigeons!

Oz

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked: "Where are the verses that say that one can reject the gift of salvation, once given? There are none."

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

<sigh> I suppose the phrase "latter end is worse for them than the beginning" must mean loss of salvation or rejection of salvation once given.

<sigh> Well, it doesn't at all. And, if it did, it would CONTRADICT other Scriptures that plainly teach that salvation is secure, once obtained.

One would have to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that "latter end" specifically refers to eternity rather than end of one's life on earth. There are many verses that warn of loss, yet NONE of them specify salvation or eternal life.

The warning passages of God's hand of discipline forwards rebellious children indicates that those believers who later become rebellious, etc, are not going to get away with anything.

And again -
Peter warns us that even angels, who are sons of God, can be cast down to hell, because of disobedience.

4For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4 JLB

So, this warns of loss of salvation? No, it is just another failed attempt to pit Scripture against Scripture. Comparing apples to oranges.

We cannot ever compare the life of angels to the life of humans. They simply are NOT comparable.

2 Pet 2:4 isn't about "saved" angels who rebelled and lost their salvation.

I challenge anyone who holds to the view that salvation can be lost to prove that 2 Pet 2:4 is about saved angels who lost their salvation.

 

[gr8grace3]

Jethro,

Such a basic verse as John 3:16 (ESV) confirms the nature of what needs to happen to have continuing salvation: 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life'.

These two verbals, 'believes' and 'have' are present tense in the Greek language, which means that they indicate continuous or continuing action. so, the meaning is, 'Whoever continues to believe in him should not perish but continue to have eternal life. So, eternal life is guaranteed for those who continue to believe in Jesus. Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV) is clear that it is possible to commit apostasy from the faith and some have 'shipwrecked' their faith (1 Tim 1:19 ESV).

Perhaps that will put the soteriological cat amongst the pigeons!

Oz

The present tense does not always automatically convey continuous action. Why Isn't there a "qualifier" in John 3:16?

1 Thes 2:13~~

"And we also thank(present tense) God continually(qualifier) because, when you received(aorist) the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted(aorist) it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe. "

1 Thess 5:15-18~~16 Rejoice(present tense) always(qualifier); 17 pray(present tense) without ceasing(qualifier); 18 in everything(qualifier) give(Present tense) thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 13:15
"Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually(qualifier) offer(present tense) to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name."
~~~~~~~
John 3:16~~ 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes(present tense) in him should not perish but have eternal life'.

Present tense action in the absence of qualifiers demands a singular action in the present moment without requiring that it be continuous throughout the present if we have the same idea expressed in the aorist tense.

And the aorist tense is used in other verses, as FreeGrace has pointed out.

Acts 16:31~~31They said, “Believe(aorist tense) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I challenge anyone who holds to the view that salvation can be lost to prove that 2 Pet 2:4 is about saved angels who lost their salvation.

Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For Jesus is our payment for our sin. The grace was that Jesus did this in the first place, and if you continue in that sin.......you are insulting that grace.

 

[dianegcook]

(Post removed. Failure to follow administrators request posted earlier in this thread and failure to follow A&T Guidelines which state in part: "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah)