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Eternal security or conditional security?

FreeGrace

 
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All of the threads about whether one can lose salvation or not have been closed, for various reasons. And the discussions have generally been one-sided, or lop-sided. By that, I mean that the conditional security (CS) side for the most part simply ignore the verses provided by the eternal security (ES) side. No attempt is made to explain any of the verses from the ES side. The CS side just re-posts their verses as if that settles any debate. Hardly. What it shows is either an unwillingness to address the verses from the ES side, or a total inability to do so. Either way, the CS side is considerably weakend by such action.

So, I am going to post 6 reasons why I believe the Bible teaches ES.

First
, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

We know that "All Scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for (1) TEACHING, for (2) reproof, for (3) correction, and for (4) training in righteousness". 2 Tim 3:16

If none of the verses above are FOR teaching, then which category do they apply to?

And, IF, any of the verses above are FOR teaching, then what, specifically, do they teach, if not eternal security?

That said, I request that anyone who desires to respond to this OP please address at least one of the 6 points I've made, and answer the questions regarding 2 Tim 3:16 .

Thank you.
 

for_his_glory

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The only way to lose your salvation is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31, but if you are truly standing in the Holy place that is our faith in Christ and believing in all of Gods promises of eternal life with Him then why would any blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that we are sealed by unto the day of redemption that will come in the end of days.Those that lack knowledge, but yet are sealed, do run the risk of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit if faced with life threatening persecutions in order to save their own life.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
 

FreeGrace

 
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The only way to lose your salvation is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31, but if you are truly standing in the Holy place that is our faith in Christ and believing in all of Gods promises of eternal life with Him then why would any blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that we are sealed by unto the day of redemption that will come in the end of days.Those that lack knowledge, but yet are sealed, do run the risk of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit if faced with life threatening persecutions in order to save their own life.
Please explain how the OP and your claim about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit both work, then.

If salvation can be lost by any means, then none of the verses in the OP can be about salvation. So, as was asked in the OP, what to all 5 of the points teach, if not eternal security?

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
When responding to the OP, please provide some explanation of verses that you quote so I can understand how they fit in to the discussion. Thanks.
 

Cygnus

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Let me add...
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand
 

for_his_glory

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Please explain how the OP and your claim about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit both work, then.

If salvation can be lost by any means, then none of the verses in the OP can be about salvation. So, as was asked in the OP, what to all 5 of the points teach, if not eternal security?


When responding to the OP, please provide some explanation of verses that you quote so I can understand how they fit in to the discussion. Thanks.
I'm sorry as I thought I did that in what I posted and used those scriptures to make my point. .

There have been some that have blasphemed the Holy Spirit by denouncing their faith in Christ as they chose to follow after other gods. These are they that lack true knowledge and are easily swayed by others that teach a false doctrine as they believe the lies of Satan

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
 

FreeGrace

 
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Let me add...
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand
How does this apply to the OP?
 

FreeGrace

 
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I'm sorry as I thought I did that in what I posted and used those scriptures to make my point.
The OP asked 2 questions.

"If none of the verses above are FOR teaching, then which category do they apply to?

And, IF, any of the verses above are FOR teaching, then what, specifically, do they teach, if not eternal security?"

Could you address these questions?

There have been some that have blasphemed the Holy Spirit by denouncing their faith in Christ as they chose to follow after other gods. These are they that lack true knowledge and are easily swayed by others that teach a false doctrine as they believe the lies of Satan
OK. But how does this apply to the OP?

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
OK. But how does this apply to the OP?

Here's the challenge: either all my points are true and show that the Scripture teaches eternal security, or none of them do. And because of 2 Tim 3:16, if they don't teach eternal security, what do they teach?

If the OP is true, your claim about blaspheming the Holy Spirit cannot be true. However, keep in mind that the Bible does NOT ever suggest that any believer can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. In fact, Jesus made clear that even speaking against the Son of Man isn't blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

So, it would appear that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit isn't relevant to the issue of eternal security. iow, it's not applicable to believers who rebel.

Also note that Jesus was speaking specifically against those unbelieving Jews who credited the miracles of Jesus to Beelzebub, rather than God. Since they were there and saw them personally, they had no excuse for their claim.

Since no one today has witnessed the miracles that Jesus did, it cannot apply to those who didn't witness them.
 
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Eternal Security is unconditional since those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are being enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And unto the reconciled while enemies, its promised they shall be saved by His Life ! That's Eternal Security !
 

iLOVE

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Jesus says, "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." Luke 7:47 NASB

People look at performance. God looks at the heart. The real question today, "is your heart turned towards God?"
 

Malachi

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The only way to lose your salvation is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
The ones who were blaspheming the Holy Spirit were not saved to begin with. And those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit will not blaspheme Him.

Back to the OP, the Bible is very clear that eternal life is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. Furthermore, since those who believe are born again, they cannot be *unborn*. However, Christians who persist in sin can be chastised and even die prematurely.
 

for_his_glory

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FreeGrace, I understand everything of your OP and agree with all of it. The only thing I was trying to explain is how some can break that seal of the Holy Spirit (eternal security) as they run after other gods denouncing the true God of all creation as they would rather believe the lies of Satan. This is called blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and is unforgivable.
 

FreeGrace

 
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FreeGrace, I understand everything of your OP and agree with all of it. The only thing I was trying to explain is how some can break that seal of the Holy Spirit (eternal security) as they run after other gods denouncing the true God of all creation as they would rather believe the lies of Satan. This is called blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and is unforgivable.
Well, the only place in Scripture that mentions blasphemy against the Holy Spirit doesn't include what you are claiming. And, none of it is in context with the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

Also, how can you agree with "all of it" (OP) if you also believe that the sealing with the Holy Spirit can be broken? I don't understand.

The sealing with the Holy Spirit is specifically said to be FOR the day of redemption. And there are no verses that speak of this seal being broken.

Those who argue that salvation/eternal life can be lost cannot show any verse that tells us whether this seal can be broken. All they can do is find examples in Scripture or in life where literal seals are made to be broken. Duh! But the sealing with the Holy Spirit isn't a literal seal, like wax affixed to a document in the ancient world.
 

for_his_glory

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FreeGrace I will ask you a question. Do we build upon our faith as it was weak when we first accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior?
 

FreeGrace

 
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FreeGrace I will ask you a question.
Just remember; there were 2 questions in the OP that you haven't answered yet. :)

Do we build upon our faith as it was weak when we first accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior?
Of course we do. But I don't see any relevance with this regarding the OP.

I'm hoping you will address the 2 questions in the OP.
 

for_his_glory

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Here is my answer to the two questions in the OP, but you will probably not agree.
The answer is eternal security, but only to those who will endure until the end. The end of what, the end of all things mention in Matthew 24:4-31.

You agree then that our faith is weak in the beginning and yet even being weak in faith we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. We are to build upon our faith by studying scripture as I think you would agree with that.

What about those who never build upon their faith, leave it weak and eventually lose it all together never to find it again as the world becomes their god. Are they still sealed by the Holy Spirit and have eternal security?
 

FreeGrace

 
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Here is my answer to the two questions in the OP, but you will probably not agree.
The answer is eternal security, but only to those who will endure until the end.
So then, one must put forth effort in order to be saved in the end. That is works salvation. But the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith in Eph 2:8. So, yes, I do disagree.

The end of what, the end of all things mention in Matthew 24:4-31.
The context for this passage is the Tribulation. So the "end" is the end of the Tribulation. Which has no bearing on everyone else. Only those who will go through the Tribulation.

btw, your 2 answers didn't address either of the 2 questions in the OP. :)

You agree then that our faith is weak in the beginning and yet even being weak in faith we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. We are to build upon our faith by studying scripture as I think you would agree with that.
The whole point of the sealing with the Holy Spirit is that it is FOR the day of redemption. That can only mean eternal security for those sealed, right? And who are those sealed? Those who have believed, as Eph 1:13 says.

Being sealed has no direct linkage or bearing on "enduring to the end". If one believes, they are sealed. That simple.

What about those who never build upon their faith, leave it weak and eventually lose it all together never to find it again as the world becomes their god. Are they still sealed by the Holy Spirit and have eternal security?
Well, I read this in Scripture: "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

How can one who is sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption not be redeemed?

You see, each of the 2 questions in the OP need to be answered in light of each of the 6 points. So those sealed are sealed FOR the day of redemption. Even if they grieve the Holy Spirit.

Or Paul would have made some mention of losing the seal by grieving the Holy Spirit. There would be some kind of exception or exclusion. But we find none.

Therefore, all who are sealed, which are all believers, are guaranteed FOR the day of redemption.

The Bible says so:
"set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Cor 1:22
"Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Cor 5:5

So, the sealing with the Holy Spirit is one of ownership and a deposit, which GUARANTEES what is to come.

What would that be? The day of redemption, of course.

So, the sealing with the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing for the "sealed ones" the day of redemption.

If that isn't referring to eternal security, just what is it referring to?
 

JLB

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First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Reading the context of a scripture, gives us a fuller meaning.

The wages of sin is death:

  • Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The action is taken by the Christian who has a choice to make every day of his or her life.
Present your members as slaves of sin, or as slaves of righteousness.

  • For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19

The choice is to become a slave to sin or a slave to God.

The one who becomes a slave to sin, will in the end reap the wages of sin, which is death.
The one who becomes a slave to God, and to righteousness, in the end will receive eternal life.

  • But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22


God is working in us, to both will and do His good pleasure.


12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:12-16


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Those who abide
in Him, are those who in the end will receive eternal life.

Those who do not abide in Him, are those who will receive the wages of their sin, since no longer being in Him, they have no sacrifice left for sin, whose end is death.


JLB
 

FreeGrace

 
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6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Reading the context of a scripture, gives us a fuller meaning.
So, how do v.15-23 refute anything I've posted. You continue to fail to do this.

The wages of sin is death:

  • Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The action is taken by the Christian who has a choice to make every day of his or her life.
Present your members as slaves of sin, or as slaves of righteousness.
Correct. This is dynamic. Believers choose every day, and even moment by moment whether to obey their sin nature or their new nature. That was Paul's struggle that he described in Romans 7. So 6:16 isn't about being saved or lost because of sin. What you've continued to either ignore or reject outright is the various meanings and usage of the word "death". Your view always defaults to "eternal death", yet without any evidence of that. A position can be held by assumption, but assumption sure doesn't win any arguments. Evidence is what wins arguments.

For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19

The choice is to become a slave to sin or a slave to God.
Yep. Happens repeatedly.

The one who becomes a slave to sin, will in the end reap the wages of sin, which is death.
Onus is on you to prove that eternal death is in view here, not loss of fellowship. In Jesus' parable of the prodigal, the father described his son as being "dead", and then "alive" again. He sure wasn't speaking literally. He was speaking figuratively about fellowship. When the son was in a far country, there was no fellowship between them. Only when he returned was fellowship restored.

You've never proven otherwise.

The one who becomes a slave to God, and to righteousness, in the end will receive eternal life.
This has been repeatedly refuted by Scripture which teaches that WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life.

It's not something given at the end of life for those who have earned it, which it seems is your view. Such a view is a works based salvation, without any grace in it. Yet the Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith; not of works. Eph 2:8 totally refutes your views.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:12-16
There are 3 tenses for salvation.
Past: we are saved FROM the penalty of sin. Justification
Present: we are being saved FROM the power of sin. Sanctification
Future: we will be saved FROM the presence of sin. Glorification

In Phil 2:12, Paul is referring to the present tense of salvation, the sanctification process of spiritual growth.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
Those who abide in Him, are those who in the end will receive eternal life.
What you've never proven is that the believer has any power to break the seal of the Holy Spirit, by which we've been placed IN HIM, per Eph 1:13 - In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

So, WHEN one believes, they are SEALED. And there are no verses that teach this seal can be broken.

In fact, just the opposite; believers are sealed FOR the day of redemption per Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

And this seal is a GUARANTEE of God's own possession (believers, or His children as a result of their faith - Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26) per Eph 1:14, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.
"who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Eph 1:14
"and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." 2 Cor 1:22
"He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." 2 Cor 5:5

These verses clearly teach eternal security.

But since you disagree, please answer the question in the OP about WHAT these verses do teach, if not eternal security. One cannot simply ignore the verses, since we know that "ALL Scripture" is God breathed, and is profitable for TEACHING, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, per 2 Tim 3:16.

So, what does the Bible teach about the sealing with the Holy Spirit, if not a guarantee FOR the day of redemption?

Please answer.

Those who do not abide in Him, are those who will receive the wages of their sin, since no longer
being in Him, they have no sacrifice left for sin, whose end is death.JLB
You haven't established that to "not abide" means no longer being IN Him. Again, this is merely an assumption, and it is false, since there are no verses that teach such a thing.

The concept of abiding is about fellowship, a concept that you've always rejected, in spite of many Scriptures that speak of fellowship.

We know from Scripture that it is the Holy Spirit who places us IN Christ. We don't do that. Eph 1:13,14 is the evidence for that idea.

So, where does the Bible teach that the believer has the ability or power to remove themselves from being IN Christ?

I submit that there are NO such verses. Only assumptions.

So if you can't provide Scriptural teaching that the believer himself is able to remove himself from being "IN Christ", then there is no reason to accept such a teaching.

When Jesus spoke of abiding in Him in John 15, the context was about fruit bearing.
"Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit." Jn 15:2

Why would one assume that those who don't bear fruit will end up in the lake of fire? There is no evidence for such an extreme view.

Jesus' point, which I INVITE you to refute from Scripture, is that only those who are abiding in Him will produce fruit.

iow, only those in fellowship with Him will produce fruit.

There is no mention of salvation, eternal life, or even hell in John 15, so your view has no support from that chapter, or any other passage in Scripture.

Here are some verses that show that the Bible does teach about fellowship:

1 Cor 1:9 - God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Cor 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Phil 2:1 - Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion

1 John 1:3 - what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth

1 John 1:7 - but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.[/QUOTE]
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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So, how do v.15-23 refute anything I've posted. You continue to fail to do this.

I said: Reading the context of the scripture gives us a fuller meaning.


You haven't addressed the scriptures that Paul wrote to these Christians at Rome, leading up to the verse that says... For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


You have only said... "you haven't refuted anything I've said".


You are going to have to actually engage what Paul said,

These verse's pertain to eternal life or eternal death.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

  • Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


The one who becomes a slave to sin, will in the end reap the wages of sin, which is death.
The one who becomes a slave to God, and to righteousness, in the end will receive eternal life.

  • But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22

JLB
 

Jethro Bodine

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You have to continue to believe to have eternal security:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

The condition for salvation is that you continue to hold fast the word of the gospel. Stop holding fast the word of the gospel and you are no longer saved. God will not be saving unbelievers (those who used to believe) on the Day of Wrath.

You can twist 'hold fast the word' to mean whatever you want. It's still a condition for being saved. A condition that your doctrine says can not, and does not exist for salvation.
 
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