Eternal security or conditional security?

[JLB]

What you've never proven is that the believer has any power to break the seal of the Holy Spirit, by which we've been placed IN HIM, per Eph 1:13 - In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

By jumping to another scripture from another one of your points, it's has become obvious you are not able to follow through with the point I have chosen to address, which comes from Romans 6:23.


Please stay on task and stop avoiding the context of what Paul actually taught, and the words he used.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


The Christian has two choices in this life:

• Live a life of sin, as slaves of sin, and receive the wages for that life of sin, which is eternal death.
• Live a life of righteousness, and bear fruit unto holiness, as a slave of God, and in the end receive eternal life.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

• Paul plainly says we are not to sin, and warns us of the consequences.

...to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

....you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death,
or
...or of obedience leading to righteousness?

...you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

...and the end, eternal life.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


JLB

 

[chessman]

... God will not be saving unbelievers (those who used to believe) on the Day of Wrath.

A person such as that would be properly called an ex-believer, not an unbeliever. Divorced people have “ex-spouses”, not ‘un-spouses’.

The following link takes you to BibleGateway's comprehensive Bible search listing all 13 occurrences in the Bible (KJV, LEB and NKJV) of the word "unbeliever".

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?search=Unbeliever&version=LEB;KJV;NKJV&searchtype=all

Not one of them describes a (person or persons) that once believed the Gospel and then later in their life (or afterlife) changed his/her mind and stopped believing (i.e. “used to believe” as you claim above). In fact the clearest definition I can find comes from Paul and seems to contradict your definition given above:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 (LEB)But if indeed our gospel is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they would not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Notice what Paul says about unbelievers; Unbelievers would NOT see the light, they are blinded, the Gospel is veiled from an unbeliever.

It is my observation/study that no passage in the Bible (zero) uses the word "unbeliever" to describe someone that once believed but no longer believes (“used to believe”). And therefore it is literally unbiblical to claim an unbeliever is someone who “used to believe”. Notice I said unbiblical, not ex-biblical.

I respectfully request that you provide a Scripture or two (one maybe that I have missed in searching through them all) to back up your claim posted above as to what an unbeliever is/was. Post a passage that describes a person that believes the Gospel for awhile and then calls that same person an "unbeliever", please.

I’m not quite sure what I’ll believe about Biblical inerrancy then, if you can find one. But I’ll wait and see what you find first before I become an ex-inerrantist (or would that be un-inerrantist???). No I think ex-inerrantist is correct there too.

God's Word says unbelievers have been blinded to the Gospel and would not see the light. I believe what it says is accurate and true.

 

[JLB]

A person such as that would be properly called an ex-believer, not an unbeliever. Divorced people have “ex-spouses”, not ‘un-spouses’.

A person that is married, then no longer married is a person that is un-married.
Like-wise a person that believes and then no longer believes is an un-believer.


A person that is not a believer, is not entitled to the benefits that a believer is entitled to.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


People that do not continue to remain connected to Him, are thrown into the fire and burned.



JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

Petty points of scripture can be debated 'til the cows come home but that is a result of improper reading the scriptures that in this case, as is usual, has resulted from a practice of faulty Hermeneutics. At some point every word of every scripture must be reconciled to every other word found in the scripture.

And in the end John 10:28 must enter into the mix. And that brings to the forefront a question that must be answered individually, "Who is saved?" And right there lies the whole issue.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said: Reading the context of the scripture gives us a fuller meaning.

I said this:
"So, how do v.15-23 refute anything I've posted. You continue to fail to do this."

And you failed to show how any verse in v.15-23 refutes what I have posted.

You haven't addressed the scriptures that Paul wrote to these Christians at Rome, leading up to the verse that says... For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

So, WHERE is your evidence that any verse between 15-23 changed the FACT that eternal life is a gift of God??

That was written BEFORE Paul then wrote that the gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE (Rom 11:29). No one has shown that Paul didn't mean to include eternal life in 11:29.

You have only said... "you haven't refuted anything I've said".

I've said much more than that. And you've basically ignored all of it.

You are going to have to actually engage what Paul said,

These verse's pertain to eternal life or eternal death.

You have failed to explain clearly how that fact changes anything. I have proven that one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes, from John 5:24, and you haven't refuted that FACT.

So, those who HAVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. This is promised by Jesus Himself in Jn 3:16 and 10:28.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

• Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

You have yet to prove that 6:16 is about eternal death. I've shown WHY it pertains to fellowship, or the death of it. And I used an example from Jesus Himself.

The one who becomes a slave to sin, will in the end reap the wages of sin, which is death.

What you seem to not know is that all humans are born into the slavery of sin, as sinners. And our destiny is already eternal death. So your view of 6:16 cannot be right.

Did Jesus die for all sin or not?

The one who becomes a slave to God, and to righteousness, in the end will receive eternal life.

• But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22JLB

I've already explained the error here. Eternal life isn't something that God finally gives to people after they die, as you seem to think.

It seems to me that you are only pitting the words of Paul AGAINST the words of Jesus.

So, who ya gonna believe; Jesus or Paul? I choose to believe both of them. But your use of their words only create conflict and contradiction.

Eternal life is received WHEN one believes. Jesus said so clearly in Jn 5:24, but it seems you think otherwise, based on your take of Rom 6:22.

Rom 6:22 is about bearing fruit, which is about sanctification, by the phrase "fruit to holiness". The present tense of salvation. And the "end" refers to the end of one's life on earth. iow, after we die physically, we enter eternity.

Nothing mysterious about this.

But I cannot fathom why one would think we don't get eternal life until "the end". Rom 6:22 doesn't support your contention.

 

[FreeGrace]

You have to continue to believe to have eternal security:

You've not proven this from Scripture.

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

No, this verse doesn't help you at all in your theory. In fact, Jesus was clear about who holds whom in Jn 10:28. We are held by God, and WILL NEVER PERISH, according to Jesus.

And I've shown the meaning of the Greek word, which means to "possess".

So, let's review this point by point:
1. WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2. Those to whom Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
3. We know who He gives eternal life to from John 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. The tense for "enters" is aorist, meaning in a point in time. NOT continuous action as your view demands. The aorist tense refutes your theory.

iow, by a one time entry through the door, "he will be saved", obviously meaning HAVING eternal life (Jn 5:24) and WILL NEVER PERISH, per John 10:28.

Now, the onus is on you to refute my points.

The condition for salvation is that you

continue to hold fast the word of the gospel. Stop holding fast the word of the gospel and you are no longer saved.

Faulty assumption.

God will not be saving unbelievers (those who used to believe) on the Day of Wrath.

The Bible NEVER describes those who no longer believe as unbelievers. So your premise is faulty.

You can twist 'hold fast the word' to mean whatever you want.

I don't have to and haven't even tried. I have shown the Greek meaning for the word. If you have a problem with that, please explain where I've errored. I believe your claim is only a mere assumption or speculation. Not based on any facts. Please show the facts if you have any.

It's still a condition for being saved. A condition that your doctrine says can not, and does not exist for salvation.

Both Jesus and Paul used the aorist tense to describe how one is saved. That alone refutes your claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

By jumping to another scripture from another one of your points, it's has become obvious you are not able to follow through with the point I have chosen to address, which comes from Romans 6:23.

Interesting charge, since that's been your modus operandi throughout. lol

Please stay on task and stop avoiding the context of what Paul actually taught, and the words he used.

I've already dealt with it and explained it. And I don't recall any challenge from you on what I posted.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The Christian has two choices in this life:

• Live a life of sin, as slaves of sin, and receive the wages for that life of sin, which is eternal death.
• Live a life of righteousness, and bear fruit unto holiness, as a slave of God, and in the end receive eternal life.

Such a claim removes all significance of Christ's sacrifice on the cross FOR our sins. I cannot understand how anyone could make such a statement!!

If sin in the life of a believer results in eternal death, then Christ died for NOTHING. Please explain how that is not your view. All I see is tremendous contradiction between your view and Scripture.

And if sin in the life of a believer results in eternal death, then many Scriptures are rendered meaningless!!

Such as:
Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember that Paul described justification as a gift in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 and then said that God's gift are IRREVOCABLE. But your view renders justification as quite REVOCABLE. Please explain.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

Since Christ died for all sin (Jn 1:29), sin cannot be an issue in going to hell. And we know from Rev 20:15 WHY people are cast into the lake of fire: for not having eternal life - And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

There is NOTHING in that context (v.11-15) to suggest that anyone was cast into the lake of fire because of what they DID. It was because of what they DIDN'T HAVE, which is eternal life.

I cannot accept the view that sin causes people to go to hell. And I've proven from Scripture WHY people end up there. Which isn't about sin, but about not having eternal life.

 

[chessman]

Like-wise a person that believes and then no longer believes is an un-believer.

Do you know of an actual Scripture that uses the word "unbeliever" for someone that once believed the Gospel and then no longer believes the Gospel?

​

 

[FreeGrace]

A person that is married, then no longer married is a person that is un-married.
Like-wise a person that believes and then no longer believes is an un-believer.

Since God's plan did NOT include divorce in marriage, per Matt 19:6 - "So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

So then the Jews asked why Moses permitted divorce, and Jesus answered in v.8 - He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so."

So, using marriage as an example is a poor one. The better example is how the Bible describes the believer's relationship to God: child and Father. And I've already shown that the physical relationship between birth parent and child CANNOT BE CHANGED. There is no reason to assume that the spiritual relationship can be.

A person that is not a believer, is not entitled to the benefits that a believer is entitled to.

You know the forum rules. Back up your opinion with Scripture which supports your opinion.

People that do not continue to remain connected to Him, are thrown into the fire and burned.
JLB

Why should anyone assume that any person has the ability to disconnect themselves from being "in Christ"? Please prove your opinion from Scripture.

However, I will easily refute your opinion from Scripture. When one believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, a promise FOR the day of redemption.

These verses refute your opinion:
every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And I've shown the meaning of the Greek word, which means to "possess".

I don't care what it means. It's a condition given to be saved.

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

But you're teaching the church that there are zero conditions attached to keeping your salvation.
How is it that a person who no longer believes the gospel is still holding fast the word of the gospel that was preached to them?

 

[JLB]

Interesting charge, since that's been your modus operandi throughout. lol

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

These are the scriptures I'm addressing one by one, starting with Romans 6:23 and the context.


6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to morelawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things isdeath. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Reading the context of a scripture, gives us a fuller meaning.

The wages of sin is death:

• Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sinleading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The action is taken by the Christian who has a choice to make every day of his or her life.
Present your members as slaves of sin, or as slaves of righteousness.

• For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19

The choice is to become a slave to sin or a slave to God.

The one who becomes a slave to sin, will in the end reap the wages of sin, which is death.
The one who becomes a slave to God, and to righteousness, in the end will receive eternal life.

• But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22

God is working in us, to both will and do His good pleasure.


12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life,so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:12-16


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Those who abide in Him, are those who in the end will receive eternal life.

Those who do not abide in Him, are those who will receive the wages of their sin, since no longer being in Him, they have no sacrifice left for sin, whose end is death.


If you are able to discuss the context of Romans 6, then please address the points I have made from the surrounding verse's of Romans 6.


If you can't, then I will take it that you concede, and agree to stop teaching unbiblical principles that are not found in God's word.


Salvation is conditional on believing/obeying the Gospel to the end of our faith/life.

The CS side just re-posts their verses as if that settles any debate.

The ES side just ignores the verse's that are posted and never actually discusses them, with the except of making up different definitions for the words or phrases used.

Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

There are exactly zero verses that mention or teach eternal security.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"And I've shown the meaning of the Greek word, which means to "possess"."

I don't care what it means.

I fully understand this fact. And it reminds me of a statement:

"My mind is made up. Don't bother me with the facts."

But you're teaching the church that there are zero conditions attached to keeping your salvation.

Because that is what the Bible teaches. We are held by God, not the other way around.

How is it that a person who no longer believes the gospel is still holding fast the word of the gospel that was preached to them?

Because they still possess the gift of God, which is eternal life (Rom 6:23). And God's gifts are IRREVOCABLE, as I've already proven (Rom 11:29).

And Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

What Paul said and Jesus said completely agree.

 

[FreeGrace]

These are the scriptures I'm addressing one by one, starting with Romans 6:23 and the context.


6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to morelawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things isdeath. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Reading the context of a scripture, gives us a fuller meaning.

The wages of sin is death:

• Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sinleading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The action is taken by the Christian who has a choice to make every day of his or her life.
Present your members as slaves of sin, or as slaves of righteousness.

• For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19

The choice is to become a slave to sin or a slave to God.

The one who becomes a slave to sin, will in the end reap the wages of sin, which is death.
The one who becomes a slave to God, and to righteousness, in the end will receive eternal life.

• But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22

God is working in us, to both will and do His good pleasure.


12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life,so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:12-16


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Those who abide in Him, are those who in the end will receive eternal life.

Those who do not abide in Him, are those who will receive the wages of their sin, since no longer being in Him, they have no sacrifice left for sin, whose end is death.


If you are able to discuss the context of Romans 6, then please address the points I have made from the surrounding verse's of Romans 6.


If you can't, then I will take it that you concede, and agree to stop teaching unbiblical principles that are not found in God's word.


Salvation is conditional on believing/obeying the Gospel to the end of our faith/life.





The ES side just ignores the verse's that are posted and never actually discusses them, with the except of making up different definitions for the words or phrases used.




There are exactly zero verses that mention or teach eternal security.
JLB

Once again, you failed to address any of the 2 questions from the OP.

Instead of just your disagreement with my view, the issue is to explain in ALL 5 points what specifically the verses are teaching, if not eternal security.

You've not done that.

 

[JLB]

Do you know of an actual Scripture that uses the word "unbeliever" for someone that once believed the Gospel and then no longer believes the Gospel?

Unbelieving is what the bible uses to described those who once believed...

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8

Unbelieving is used here to describe those who no longer believed. ie; faithless.


Do you know of an actual scripture that calls people who once believed, then no longer believe, a "believer"?

Unbelief is what happens in the heart of a believer, that turns them to "no longer believing", but unbelieving, thus departing from the living God, just as an unbeliever who never believed is not reconciled to God, who does not "have" or partake of Christ.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Paul warns believers, not to have an evil heart of unbelief, and thereby departing from the living God.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Paul says the same thing and uses the same Greek word [fall away] "depart" to describe those who no longer believe.

This same Greek word is Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall awayto keep one's self from, absent one's self from.

Once again, you failed to address any of the 2 questions from the OP.

Instead of just your disagreement with my view, the issue is to explain in ALL 5 points what specifically the verses are teaching, if not eternal security.

You've not done that.

Ill take that to mean you are not capable of discussing the scriptures, the very scripture you posted for discussion.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Revelation 21:7-8

Unbelieving is used here to describe those who no longer believed. ie; faithless.

Umm, no it's not. Not in the Text of the Scripture it's not. That's just your words repeating once again what the Bible never actually says.

"He who overcomes shall inherit all things... But the cowardly, unbelieving..."

The very verse you presented is describeing two different sets of people and two different outcomes for them. One set "he who overcomes" but another set that is "cowardly and unbelieving, ..."

 

[JLB]

Umm, no it's not. Not in the Text of the Scripture it's not. That's just your words repeating once again what the Bible never actually says.

"He who overcomes shall inherit all things... But the cowardly, unbelieving..."

The very verse you presented is describeing two different sets of people and two different outcomes for them. One set "he who overcomes" but another set that is "cowardly and unbelieving, ..."

These verse's were written to Christians.
Two different outcomes for Christians:

One the one hand, Christians who overcome shall inherit all things.

One the other hand, Christians who do not overcome, but fall away being unbelieving and cowardly, or sexually immoral, or murders...
will not inherit the kingdom, but will have their place in the lake of fire.

Same thing Jesus taught His disciples on the mount of Olives. Matthew 25:31-46


If you believe that the Book of Revelations was written to the world and not the Churches then please provide the scripture for this belief.


JLB

 

[chessman]

These verse's were written to Christians.
Two different outcomes for Christians:

One the one hand, Christians who overcome shall inherit all things.

One the other hand, Christians who do not overcome, but fall away being unbelieving and cowardly, or sexually immoral, or murders...
will not inherit the kingdom, but will have their place in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel descending from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he seized the dragon—the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan—and bound him for a thousand years,​

This verse was written to Christians as well. Yet it speaks about an angel and the devil/Satan. Elsewhere it speak about Jesus. But using your same logic here, then the Christians that this was written to could become an angel or the devil, I suppose, because Jesus spoke about them too. Odd logic really. Prolly cause it's faulty logic.

If you believe that the Book of Revelations was written to the world and not the Churches then please provide the scripture for this belief.

I believe the Book of Revelation (not Revelations) was written to the churches. Never said otherwise. I recognize, however, that within the book of Revelation Jesus speaks to Christians about non-Christians (and the Devil, and angels) and Himself.

But as I pointed out (and you've yet to provide any evidence against my point); nowhere in Revelation or any other Biblical text does The Book ever describe an "unbeliever" as someone who once believed the Gospel but no longer believes the Gospel.

 

[FreeGrace]

Unbelieving is what the bible uses to described those who once believed…

You continue to make stuff up. Where does the Bible describe those who once believed as "unbelieving"?

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8

Once again you've quoted Scripture that doesn't SAY what you attribute the Scriptures as saying. Where, in this passage, does Scripture say that these "unbelieving" are former believers? No where.

Unbelieving is used here to describe those who no longer believed. ie; faithless.

There is nothing in the verses you've provided that supports your claim.

Do you know of an actual scripture that calls people who once believed, then no longer believe, a "believer"?

I've already shown Scripture that describes former believers: 1 Tim 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart (aphistēmi) from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons

aphistēmi
1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
1a) to excite to revolt
2) to stand off, to stand aloof
2a) to go away, to depart from anyone
2b) to desert, withdraw from one
2c) to fall away, become faithless
2d) to shun, flee from
2e) to cease to vex one
2f) to withdraw one’s self from, to fall away
2g) to keep one’s self from, absent one’s self from

This is how the Bible describes those who no longer believe: apostates; from the Greek word aphistemi.

And there still aren't any verses that describe former believers as "unbelievers" as you keep claiming.

Unbelief is what happens in the heart of a believer, that turns them to "no longer believing", but unbelieving, thus departing from the living God, just as an unbeliever who never believed is not reconciled to God, who does not "have" or partake of Christ.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Paul warns believers, not to have an evil heart of unbelief, and thereby departing from the living God.

Simply cobbling together unrelated verses in order to try to make your point doesn't work. You haven't shown how Heb 3 relates in any way to your made up definition.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Paul says the same thing and uses the same Greek word [fall away] "depart" to describe those who no longer believe.

Correct: apostate, which comes from the Greek word aphistemi. That's what the Bible calls former believers.

Aphistemi does NOT mean "unbeliever". Not by any stretch.

This same Greek word is Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall awayto keep one's self from, absent one's self from.

I love it when you agree with me.

I said this:
"Once again, you failed to address any of the 2 questions from the OP.

Instead of just your disagreement with my view, the issue is to explain in ALL 5 points what specifically the verses are teaching, if not eternal security.

You've not done that."

Ill take that to mean you are not capable of discussing the scriptures, the very scripture you posted for discussion.
JLB

Hardly. I am glad that you do agree with me regarding what the Bible calls a former believer. Which isn't "unbeliever" as you erroneously claim.

But I'm not glad that you continue to ignore answering the 2 questions, which is the ONLY way to refute the OP.

If none of those verses teach eternal security, then what do they teach??

All Scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.

So, if they don't teach eternal security, what to they teach? Or are they about one of the other categories? If so, which category? Be specific as to each point in the OP.

Unless you yourself aren't capable of discussing Scripture, as you've wrongly charged me.

 

[for_his_glory]

Those whose faith in Christ is weak as they never allow it to mature or build upon it will be more inclined to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31, 32, from their heart and completely turn away from Him denouncing God in their lives when not trusting God in all things when they face the trials and tribulations of this world and actually blame God for their torments.

Those who are Spiritually born again, John 3:3-7, and have risen with Christ, Colossians 3:1-4, are those whose names are found written in the Lambs book of life. If we endure and overcome all persecution, even to the physical death of this flesh, for the sake of Christ we have eternal life with the Father. We are not saved at the moment of confession of faith that is Christ Jesus, Romans 10:9,10, but only sealed by God who keeps us and will help us to endure all the persecutions of this world and then we will be saved, John 14:26; John 6:26-29; 2Corinthians 1:21, 22; Matthew 24:13,14.

Once saved always saved are only those who are in Christ and endure all persecutions, trials and tribulation as they stand strong in their faith that is Christ Jesus until their physical death unto the end of days here on Earth as then they are saved from the lake of fire as their names are found written in the Lambs book of life which is eternal life with the Father.

 

[JLB]

You continue to make stuff up. Where does the Bible describe those who once believed as "unbelieving"?


Once again you've quoted Scripture that doesn't SAY what you attribute the Scriptures as saying. Where, in this passage, does Scripture say that these "unbelieving" are former believers? No where.


There is nothing in the verses you've provided that supports your claim.


I've already shown Scripture that describes former believers: 1 Tim 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart (aphistēmi) from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons

aphistēmi
1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
1a) to excite to revolt
2) to stand off, to stand aloof
2a) to go away, to depart from anyone
2b) to desert, withdraw from one
2c) to fall away, become faithless
2d) to shun, flee from
2e) to cease to vex one
2f) to withdraw one’s self from, to fall away
2g) to keep one’s self from, absent one’s self from

This is how the Bible describes those who no longer believe: apostates; from the Greek word aphistemi.

And there still aren't any verses that describe former believers as "unbelievers" as you keep claiming.


Simply cobbling together unrelated verses in order to try to make your point doesn't work. You haven't shown how Heb 3 relates in any way to your made up definition.


Correct: apostate, which comes from the Greek word aphistemi. That's what the Bible calls former believers.

Aphistemi does NOT mean "unbeliever". Not by any stretch.


I love it when you agree with me.

I said this:
"Once again, you failed to address any of the 2 questions from the OP.

Instead of just your disagreement with my view, the issue is to explain in ALL 5 points what specifically the verses are teaching, if not eternal security.

You've not done that."

Hardly. I am glad that you do agree with me regarding what the Bible calls a former believer. Which isn't "unbeliever" as you erroneously claim.

But I'm not glad that you continue to ignore answering the 2 questions, which is the ONLY way to refute the OP.

If none of those verses teach eternal security, then what do they teach??

All Scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.

So, if they don't teach eternal security, what to they teach? Or are they about one of the other categories? If so, which category? Be specific as to each point in the OP.

Unless you yourself aren't capable of discussing Scripture, as you've wrongly charged me.

Sorry, but you have not addressed the scriptures in which I posted from Romans 6, as well as the context of Romans 6:23.

All you seem to be able to do, is make opinionated statements, while ignoring the scriptures from the points you made.

Romans 6, plainly and clearly refutes your claim of eternal security, which is why you keep making up new requirements, and ignoring what the scriptures actually say.

These are the scriptures I'm addressing one by one, starting with Romans 6:23 and the context.


6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading tomorelawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things isdeath. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Reading the context of a scripture, gives us a fuller meaning.

The wages of sin is death:

• Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sinleading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

The action is taken by the Christian who has a choice to make every day of his or her life.
Present your members as slaves of sin, or as slaves of righteousness.

• For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19

The choice is to become a slave to sin or a slave to God.

The one who becomes a slave to sin, will in the end reap the wages of sin, which is death.
The one who becomes a slave to God, and to righteousness, in the end will receive eternal life.

• But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22

God is working in us, to both will and do His good pleasure.


12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life,so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Philippians 2:12-16


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


Those who abide in Him, are those who in the end will receive eternal life.

Those who do not abide in Him, are those who will receive the wages of their sin, since no longer being in Him, they have no sacrifice left for sin, whose end is death.


If you are able to discuss the context of Romans 6, then please address the points I have made from the surrounding verse's of Romans 6.



Salvation is conditional on believing/obeying the Gospel to the end of our faith/life.




JLB